Break In Disaster????????

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I just read through this thread and thought I would not my experience out there.

You oil pressure sounds completely normal to me for a stock pump. Every small block I have built started cold at 80 or so psi and idled around 40 to 50 warmed up. Still can reach 80 when throttled up.

As far as your oil coming out of the rocker shaft bolt. Lots of good advice here. Definitely clean the insides and inspect them. Make sure the bolts go into the threads smooth and the length is proper. Aside from that, I have not watched my valve train for oil coming around the bolts so I do not know what is a problem and what is normal.

On your oil leak, I prefer felpro gaskets. I do not use a torque wrench and tighten them by feel. I dont use any silicone. Make sure the flange of the valve cover is streight. Check for cracked corners of the valve covers. Verify the leak isn't something else. Check the back of the intake and distributor o ring. Make sure you clean your oil off the engine completely. The leak could be fixed and you are seeing old oil dripping from under the vehicle.
Good luck
 
BTW, Jake, the leaks out of the rocker shafts can come from any bolt....the whole interior of the shafts will fill with oil to some degree if the engine pressure is on the high side (despite the 'oil pressure interrupter' in the cam design), and pressure can build up inside them if the flow out of the shaft to the rockers is slow. All bolts in the shaft can see the same pressure, so they can leak on any one. The adjustable rockers will be the most prone to do this by their design; they fit pretty snugly on the shaft.

BTW, we recently primed our new 340 with PRW rockers, and the oil flow out of the shafts was just a slow flow or dribble at each point between the rockers, with 67 psi showing on the test gauge and 10W30. And that is with the cam lined up and no interruption of pressure. (However, the PRW shaft restricts the oil into the shaft interiro more than the stock shafts.)

As for 340dartley's comment, I have to ask what weight oil he is running. If it is at 80 a lot, then his oil may be on the heavy side. I have to wonder what the pressure relief valve is doing.....or not.

But, I was almost thinking of telling Jake a similar thing: that maybe the best thing to do after good top end checks is run it carefully for a while and keep and eye on it, stay with the lighter weight oils (which promotes better overall flow rates and cooling anyway), if the top end leaks can be satisfactorily managed. It is not quite at the level where I have blown out filter base gaksets; that was at 100psi. Pulling the motor would be a lot of work, thought pulling the pan might not be as bad, depending on your tooling.
 
340dartley said:
I just read through this thread and thought I would not my experience out there.

You oil pressure sounds completely normal to me for a stock pump. Every small block I have built started cold at 80 or so psi and idled around 40 to 50 warmed up. Still can reach 80 when throttled up.

As far as your oil coming out of the rocker shaft bolt. Lots of good advice here. Definitely clean the insides and inspect them. Make sure the bolts go into the threads smooth and the length is proper. Aside from that, I have not watched my valve train for oil coming around the bolts so I do not know what is a problem and what is normal.

On your oil leak, I prefer felpro gaskets. I do not use a torque wrench and tighten them by feel. I dont use any silicone. Make sure the flange of the valve cover is streight. Check for cracked corners of the valve covers. Verify the leak isn't something else. Check the back of the intake and distributor o ring. Make sure you clean your oil off the engine completely. The leak could be fixed and you are seeing old oil dripping from under the vehicle.
Good luck
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Thanks for the input, all the gaskets looked good as far as I can tell and I was able to use another set of valve cover gaskets that were 3/16 to a 1/4 thick and I am still getting that leak from them. I had a though but it seams a real stretch, I am using a 90 degree filter and with the manifolds I have I couldn't run it out the back like they're meant to be run instead I faced it forward and facing a but up, my question is do you think this reposition could be causing the high oil pressure? I might run to the junkyard tomorrow and get a regular adapter to see if that might work. I have a aluminum 90 that looks like it's flow is 10 times better than that stock one but noticed the bolts that run through them aren't the same so I want able to use it.

Jake
nm9stheham said:
BTW, Jake, the leaks out of the rocker shafts can come from any bolt....the whole interior of the shafts will fill with oil to some degree if the engine pressure is on the high side (despite the 'oil pressure interrupter' in the cam design), and pressure can build up inside them if the flow out of the shaft to the rockers is slow. All bolts in the shaft can see the same pressure, so they can leak on any one. The adjustable rockers will be the most prone to do this by their design; they fit pretty snugly on the shaft.

BTW, we recently primed our new 340 with PRW rockers, and the oil flow out of the shafts was just a slow flow or dribble at each point between the rockers, with 67 psi showing on the test gauge and 10W30. And that is with the cam lined up and no interruption of pressure. (However, the PRW shaft restricts the oil into the shaft interiro more than the stock shafts.)

As for 340dartley's comment, I have to ask what weight oil he is running. If it is at 80 a lot, then his oil may be on the heavy side. I have to wonder what the pressure relief valve is doing.....or not.

But, I was almost thinking of telling Jake a similar thing: that maybe the best thing to do after good top end checks is run it carefully for a while and keep and eye on it, stay with the lighter weight oils (which promotes better overall flow rates and cooling anyway), if the top end leaks can be satisfactorily managed. It is not quite at the level where I have blown out filter base gaksets; that was at 100psi). Pulling the motor would be a lot of work, thought pulling the pan might not be as bad, depending on your tooling.
Click to expand...

Thanks for all your help this far, it's greatly appreciated. I am going to get a mic today and have a look at the shafts and possibly pick up another set if needed tomorrow.

Jake
 
The filter position has no effect on pressure. I have a NICE set of 273 adj rockers with new crane adjusters, all correct bolts, banana groves. I could give you a good price. let me know.
 
Mopar Tim said:
The filter position has no effect on pressure.
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Roger that. The oil filter and adapters and lines can only reduce pressure with any added restrictions. Check the clearance between rockers and shafts; should be .001-.003"

BTW, stock pump spec pressure is 45-65 psi at 1000 rpm and a minimum of 20 psi at 500 rpm. Numbers are for 10W30 for most climates, or 20W40 for hot climates. The Melling oil pumps' pressure relief springs are reportedly stronger per KrazyKuda's data, for both HV and standard oil pumps. Did you install a new pump and is it a Melling? We put in a Mopar Performance HV pump and it is actually a Melling, and has the higher pressure spring.
 
nm9stheham said:
Roger that. The oil filter and adapters and lines can only reduce pressure with any added restrictions. Check the clearance between rockers and shafts; should be .001-.003"

BTW, stock pump spec pressure is 45-65 psi at 1000 rpm and a minimum of 20 psi at 500 rpm. Numbers are for 10W30 for most climates, or 20W40 for hot climates. The Melling oil pumps' pressure relief springs are reportedly stronger per KrazyKuda's data, for both HV and standard oil pumps. Did you install a new pump and is it a Melling? We put in a Mopar Performance HV pump and it is actually a Melling, and has the higher pressure spring.
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Ok, yeah it was a melling. I guess ill be pulling it out tomorrow. Should i get a new one or pull this one apart to see what the deal is??? Someone mentioned blocked oil passage???


Jake
 
Perhaps it was the mention of the relief springs retention plug in the pump being installed backwards? Or the relief valve it self being stuck. The plug should be with the cup side facing INTO the pump, not facing out. Blockage was mentioned in regards to the small rocker holes being blocked and raising shaft pressure.

If you DO have a Melling then maybe you should hold on a bit before pulling. Per KK's data, I would expect either the standard or HV Melling to produce 10-15 psi higher than the non-Melling pump, at least at the 1500 rpm or so and higher. You are not far from that. I surely would not pull the motor before checking the rockers thoroughly to see if you could get that leakage settled down, and checking with another pressure gauge.

BTW, did you ever get a video of the oil form the rockers? We are blind on this end to what is really going on.
 
nm9stheham said:
Perhaps it was the mention of the relief springs retention plug in the pump being installed backwards? Or the relief valve it self being stuck. The plug should be with the cup side facing INTO the pump, not facing out. Blockage was mentioned in regards to the small rocker holes being blocked and raising shaft pressure.

If you DO have a Melling then maybe you should hold on a bit before pulling. Per KK's data, I would expect either the standard or HV Melling to produce 10-15 psi higher than the non-Melling pump, at least at the 1500 rpm or so and higher. You are not far from that. I surely would not pull the motor before checking the rockers thoroughly to see if you could get that leakage settled down, and checking with another pressure gauge.

BTW, did you ever get a video of the oil form the rockers? We are blind on this end to what is really going on.
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I am going to try to get a video of it tonight. What can high pressure do to hydraulic lifters??? I just picked the car up from the exhaust guy and it sounds odd to me, now i havent heard it in without open pipes util now so maybe thats normal but ill try to get that in the video as well.


Jake
 
The oil pressure I was describing was with 10w 30 oil. The pressures I am describing are with fresh rebuilt engines. I do not use high pressure pumps in my street motors as mopars have always ran a little high in pressure I'm my experience. Other brands show these pressures with high pressure pumps.

I have a used set of adjustable 273 rocker arms in a box. I will take a look to see if there is anything noteworthy about them. I also have a set of custom push rods that allow them to work with a hydraulic cam.
 
340dartley said:
The oil pressure I was describing was with 10w 30 oil. The pressures I am describing are with fresh rebuilt engines. I do not use high pressure pumps in my street motors as mopars have always ran a little high in pressure I'm my experience. Other brands show these pressures with high pressure pumps.

I have a used set of adjustable 273 rocker arms in a box. I will take a look to see if there is anything noteworthy about them. I also have a set of custom push rods that allow them to work with a hydraulic cam.
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Ok, thanks for the info!! I feel a bit frustrated at this point. I feel that if i can get it to not leak out of the covers than i can live with a bit of high pressure but that leads right back into the reason its leaking is possibly because of the high pressure, catch 22's foorreevveerrrrr.......


Jake
 
nm9stheham said:
Perhaps it was the mention of the relief springs retention plug in the pump being installed backwards? Or the relief valve it self being stuck. The plug should be with the cup side facing INTO the pump, not facing out. Blockage was mentioned in regards to the small rocker holes being blocked and raising shaft pressure.

If you DO have a Melling then maybe you should hold on a bit before pulling. Per KK's data, I would expect either the standard or HV Melling to produce 10-15 psi higher than the non-Melling pump, at least at the 1500 rpm or so and higher. You are not far from that. I surely would not pull the motor before checking the rockers thoroughly to see if you could get that leakage settled down, and checking with another pressure gauge.

BTW, did you ever get a video of the oil form the rockers? We are blind on this end to what is really going on.
Click to expand...

I got took some video but not sure how to post it. Also, i replaced the rocker with another set and it did the same exact thing so i believe tha the rockers are not the problem and i think what AJ was say about the pressure lifting the rocker arm enough to break the seal.


Jake
 
FWIW My engine runs 80psi cold with no issues.
I really don't see how oil pressure has ANYTHING to do with your valve covers leaking! If the seal you should be able to fill them to the oil cap with no leakage,
You said they are old M/T, my bet is wrong gaskets,not tight enough or hitting the intake.I run MP notched to clear the intake and thick Fel Pro gaskets with no goo, and the only time they have ever leaked a drop was because once I did not tighten the back bolt enough. If your rockers are getting enough oil , fix the valve cover leaks and run it.
Just my opinion...
 
Could you try a set of stock steel valve covers to see if they leak. The only time I have had valve covers leak so bad that it was constantly dripping on the ground was when I had an exhaust leak on top of the header that torched the valve cover gasket. I always liked the original black 273 commando valve covers. If you try that make sure the sealing edges are flat.
 
KnuckleDuster said:
FWIW My engine runs 80psi cold with no issues.
I really don't see how oil pressure has ANYTHING to do with your valve covers leaking! If the seal you should be able to fill them to the oil cap with no leakage,
You said they are old M/T, my bet is wrong gaskets,not tight enough or hitting the intake.I run MP notched to clear the intake and thick Fel Pro gaskets with no goo, and the only time they have ever leaked a drop was because once I did not tighten the back bolt enough. If your rockers are getting enough oil , fix the valve cover leaks and run it.
Just my opinion...
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Mine runs at 75 to 80 always unless its at idle after getting to temp. The gaskets i have a like 3/16 inch thick and it doesnt appear to be hitting anything. They clear evrything by a long shot. Ill try anything at this point.


Jake
 
xLURKxDOGx said:
I got took some video but not sure how to post it. Also, i replaced the rocker with another set and it did the same exact thing so i believe tha the rockers are not the problem and i think what AJ was say about the pressure lifting the rocker arm enough to break the seal. Jake
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All due respect to everyone, but the pressure lifting the rocker shaft makes no good sense to me. The only place it can actually lift it would be right at the pedestal where the oil enters to shaft, or where it bolts down on each pedestal, and the pressure there is teenie-tiny compared to the hold down bolt's torqued tension force, as well as the rocker shaft stiffness, and the pushrod and spring forces. Speaking of which, what springs are you running, as in open seat pressure?

Can you take a pix or 2 of the oil form the rockers and post instead of the video? And I can't recall: what heads? Stock type or?
 
nm9stheham said:
All due respect to everyone, but the pressure lifting the rocker shaft makes no good sense to me. The only place it can actually lift it would be right at the pedestal where the oil enters to shaft, or where it bolts down on each pedestal, and the pressure there is teenie-tiny compared to the hold down bolt's torqued tension force, as well as the rocker shaft stiffness, and the pushrod and spring forces. Speaking of which, what springs are you running, as in open seat pressure?

Can you take a pix or 2 of the oil form the rockers and post instead of the video? And I can't recall: what heads? Stock type or?
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Stock closed chambered heads. I have video of it but still truing to figure if it works through a link. I mic'ed the shafts and they were fine, took the passenger side off and replaced it but was getting the same result. I am getting ready to pull the engine this morning, just seeing if theres any llast thing i can do before.

Jake
 
For God's sake, order a good Autometer gauge for about $50 from Summit or Jegs.
It will cost the same as the oil, gaskets and RTV as pulling the oil pan.
 
sireland67 said:
For God's sake, order a good Autometer gauge for about $50 from Summit or Jegs.
It will cost the same as the oil, gaskets and RTV as pulling the oil pan.
Click to expand...

I ran another gauge and read the exact same. It was an autometer.


Jake
 
Its the M/P valve covers if you have anything but s stock intake. I think they have rails just like M/T's and they hang on the intake runners. Run the rubber wire core gaskets or double up on the corks. Oil out the back is not as bad as oil out the sides under the headers!
 
xLURKxDOGx said:
Stock closed chambered heads. I have video of it but still truing to figure if it works through a link. I mic'ed the shafts and they were fine, took the passenger side off and replaced it but was getting the same result. I am getting ready to pull the engine this morning, just seeing if theres any llast thing i can do before.

Jake
Click to expand...
OK< I was wondering if you had Edelbrocks, which tend to pool oil up in the heads a bit. A/J (I think) observed that the drain slots were higher up in them than stock. BTW, do you have a working PCV system on the engine? It looks like you are using pretty tall valve cover gaskets, and they might get pushed out of alignment pretty easily with crankcase pressure and cause a leak.

On the rocker shafts, were the mounting holes top and bottom 0.375" diameter? Any larger hole on the one on the oil supply pedestal, and one of the oil restrictions to the shaft will be gone.
 
Yeah that was me. I cut some drain-channels back there cuz a lot of oil was pooling back there. As delivered there were no drains there at all. It was not creating a leak tho.I'm very sure the puddle was not an issue.

I did have to notch my aluminum (circa 1970) covers over the intake runners, to get them down enough to seal.
 
nm9stheham said:
OK< I was wondering if you had Edelbrocks, which tend to pool oil up in the heads a bit. A/J (I think) observed that the drain slots were higher up in them than stock. BTW, do you have a working PCV system on the engine? It looks like you are using pretty tall valve cover gaskets, and they might get pushed out of alignment pretty easily with crankcase pressure and cause a leak.

On the rocker shafts, were the mounting holes top and bottom 0.375" diameter? Any larger hole on the one on the oil supply pedestal, and one of the oil restrictions to the shaft will be gone.
Click to expand...

AJ/FormS said:
Yeah that was me. I cut some drain-channels back there cuz a lot of oil was pooling back there. As delivered there were no drains there at all. It was not creating a leak tho.I'm very sure the puddle was not an issue.

I did have to notch my aluminum (circa 1970) covers over the intake runners, to get them down enough to seal.
Click to expand...

Well, i finally got around to pulling the pump yesterday and it looked fine. I used Karls reference for pulling it apart and it looked like it was installed correctly based on his pictures, seemed to move fine. The one thing i did notice was that the valce looked like it wasnt recessed enough towards the back, about an fat 1/16, i am hoping maybe that was the problem. I went out and bought another one, put it in but ran into another issue putting the engine back in. To be honest i really feel like nothing has been solved because i didnt find anything. If the valve was sticking wouldnt you get low oil pressure, not high? Also, could head gaskets play with this? I bought a new set of felpro so i can ditch those victor's and were tightened and retightened numerous times.


Jake
 
So the cup side of the plug that holds in the spring faced towards the spring and not towards the cotter pin that holds it in?

The valve being stuck would typically result in high pressure; at rest, it is in the closed position. It would only result in low pressure if it moved back against the spring, and then stuck there in the open position.
 
BTW, since it is out, take advantage of that and set up the engine for priming with a drill. You can check the oil pressure now and also work on that valve cover leak. YOu might have to jack of the front of the engine stand for the cover leaks, to duplicate the engine slope as installed in the car.
 
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