Broken 440 rocker shaft, anyone else?

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RTK_line

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Last Sunday coming home from the track I lost oil pressure a few blocks from home. This is what I found. Anyone else ever see this? Last December I had an issue with broken spring retainers. The build had 13,000 miles on it, mild build to 6 pack specs, compression and duration of the cam but 570 lift. I lost the cam card so from what I can remember is it was a cheater type solid roller I bought used.

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Couple questions...
U say solid roller, what springs are you using and what spring pressure?
Stock Edelbrock locks and retainers or aftermarket?
 
Couple questions...
U say solid roller, what springs are you using and what spring pressure?
Stock Edelbrock locks and retainers or aftermarket?
I bought the Edelbrock heads from Indy and had them set up for the cam then. I paid extra to get 2.19/1.88 valves and 10* retainers and locks but not sure of the quality they used. One thing is I didn’t get the 1.88 exhaust valves. Like I said I lost the cam card since so I no longer have that info. From what I recall it was 2.14,[email protected] with 587 lift. I thought it had the same duration specs as a stock six pack.
 
How far from the track do you live?
Were you beating on it on the ride home?
35 minutes away cruising at 70 mph at 3000 rpm. I was just making a shake down run at the track and planned on rechecking everything at home. I just got done putting the heads on and swapping the gear drive with a comp cams chain set. I checked the oil pump because it had some scratches so I changed it also. I also pulled the pan and checked the bearings. Everything checked good.
 
in the last picture, what is that little round thing? is it a lash cap? Are you running three springs? Inner, outer, and damper? What pressures? I think the only way to break retainer like that is insufficient clearance retainer bottom to guide top clearance.
 
in the last picture, what is that little round thing? is it a lash cap? Are you running three springs? Inner, outer, and damper? What pressures? I think the only way to break retainer like that is insufficient clearance retainer bottom to guide top clearance.
Yes on the lash cap. I checked for any signs of contact on the guide or retainer. None of the others show anything either. There were 3 or 4 others cracked on one side that hadn’t failed completely yet.
 
or coil bind, possibly. Whenever you go over 0.500" lift, you have to be very mindful of clearances, valve train AND piston to valve.
 
or coil bind, possibly. Whenever you go over 0.500" lift, you have to be very mindful of clearances, valve train AND piston to valve.
No coil bind also. I checked all the basics when I disassembled and inspected it. I didn’t find any clearance issues with the set up.
 
in one pic, could be optical illusion, but the split locks look funny. Are you saying all the cracked retainers are on one head? Have you blued the ends of the valves/lash caps to see the contact pattern left from the rocker tip sweep of the valve end? perhaps the rocker geometry is really bad?
 
If you had to use a lash cap something else is wrong. I'm going to repeat myself but your geometry is probably wrong and needs to be corrected.

If you are breaking retainers and such its from some harmonic in the valve train usually caused by a geometry problem. You can't buy parts good enough to live through stuff like that.
 
in one pic, could be optical illusion, but the split locks look funny. Are you saying all the cracked retainers are on one head? Have you blued the ends of the valves/lash caps to see the contact pattern left from the rocker tip sweep of the valve end? perhaps the rocker geometry is really bad?
No, cracked retainers on both sides. I was a master tech for 15 years but not a pro at setting up the geometry. I did check the sweep and center position side to side. Looked ok from the research I did on the subject. I do know my way around a Mopar just looking for opinions from the experts. Just thinking metal fatigue. I changed to titanium retainers.
 
which valves have cracked retainers?
Again, maybe an optical illusion, but in the picture of the rocker tip and cracked retainer, contact looks to be more on pushrod side of valve and the valve apears to be on the seat. If it is at peak lift, it would probably be even more toward pushrod side.
As for metal fatigue, I would think it is unlikely, because of the low mileage. I also think it would break in a different way.
I'm a little short on experience running a big block at the track, so forgive my ignorance, but maybe it would be a good idea to not run the springs on the rocker shaft, and maybe opt for solid ring spacers like a small block.
What rpm's are you running at the track. And what are the clearances between retainer and guide/stem seal @ full lift? what is the spring coil clearance @ full lift?
Have you taken a look in the cylinders with a bore scope on the cylinders with the cracked retainers? Maybe the valves contacted the pistons?
 
which valves have cracked retainers?
Again, maybe an optical illusion, but in the picture of the rocker tip and cracked retainer, contact looks to be more on pushrod side of valve and the valve apears to be on the seat. If it is at peak lift, it would probably be even more toward pushrod side.
As for metal fatigue, I would think it is unlikely, because of the low mileage. I also think it would break in a different way.
I'm a little short on experience running a big block at the track, so forgive my ignorance, but maybe it would be a good idea to not run the springs on the rocker shaft, and maybe opt for solid ring spacers like a small block.
What rpm's are you running at the track. And what are the clearances between retainer and guide/stem seal @ full lift? what is the spring coil clearance @ full lift?
Have you taken a look in the cylinders with a bore scope on the cylinders with the cracked retainers? Maybe the valves contacted the pistons?
I don’t recall the exact clearance numbers but I do recall I had enough clearance for up to 675 lift, which is way more than I have. As far rpms at the track usually shifted at 5500 with a chip at 6000 but this last trip to the track I shifted at 5000. I plan on rechecking geometry when I go back together this time. I didn’t see any guide wear that would point to geometry off that much.
 
just a wild *** guess, if they are all intakes, maybe the larger intake valves are interfering with the smaller eyebrows in the pistons.
 
I just crossed a broken rocker shaft on a 340. Never seen one before. Now you pop up! LOL
It used a Purple 292/.509.
 
I just crossed a broken rocker shaft on a 340. Never seen one before. Now you pop up! LOL
It used a Purple 292/.509.
I’ve never seen or heard of one before. I think I just didn’t tighten the bolts down evenly in my rush to get it back together.
 
Still need to deal with the retainer issue.
I never found a cause for that issue but I was told by Iq52 that they didn’t look like any type that he was familiar with and definitely not a Chromemoly piece. I’m thinking a Chinese part that wasn’t up to par for the app. I bought them from Indy back when they first were available so I think they bought bare castings from Edelbrock and put Chinese parts in to raise their profit margin. No other explanation.
 
I never found a cause for that issue but I was told by Iq52 that they didn’t look like any type that he was familiar with and definitely not a Chromemoly piece. I’m thinking a Chinese part that wasn’t up to par for the app. I bought them from Indy back when they first were available so I think they bought bare castings from Edelbrock and put Chinese parts in to raise their profit margin. No other explanation.



You need to go to b3racingengines.com and search his website to read his tech articles. I suspect you need a correction. Why did you need the lash caps?

I make zero money for sending guys to him for help. I don't even get a Tshirt. Nor would I want to. I want to send guys to Mike so that they can learn they don't have to put up with junk geometry. 99% of the time you shouldn't need a lash cap.

Mikes way of correcting geometry is so simple and inexpensive I can never see a reason to not do it. Ever. I personally fought stuff like this in the mid 1980's clear though about 2003.

Spend the time reading his articles. Take notes when reading. Form those notes into questions and have Mike answer them for you. Then do the math and let him make you some correction shims. You'll valve train will run much more quiet because it's not fighting itself.

I hope you do look into Mikes stuff. I can't say enough stuff about Mike and his product. It flat works and it's much cheaper that milling the stands down on the heads and using offset blocks and stands. It works, but it's a ton of money compared to why Mike is getting paid. It's simple, and it works.

Please OP, at least look at his website, think it over and call him. Hey, I may be wrong and he may tell you my head is so far up my butt I look through my nostrils just to see where I'm going.

Keep us posted. Things like there will help educate new FABO members and save them time and money
 
You need to go to b3racingengines.com and search his website to read his tech articles. I suspect you need a correction. Why did you need the lash caps?

I make zero money for sending guys to him for help. I don't even get a Tshirt. Nor would I want to. I want to send guys to Mike so that they can learn they don't have to put up with junk geometry. 99% of the time you shouldn't need a lash cap.

Mikes way of correcting geometry is so simple and inexpensive I can never see a reason to not do it. Ever. I personally fought stuff like this in the mid 1980's clear though about 2003.

Spend the time reading his articles. Take notes when reading. Form those notes into questions and have Mike answer them for you. Then do the math and let him make you some correction shims. You'll valve train will run much more quiet because it's not fighting itself.

I hope you do look into Mikes stuff. I can't say enough stuff about Mike and his product. It flat works and it's much cheaper that milling the stands down on the heads and using offset blocks and stands. It works, but it's a ton of money compared to why Mike is getting paid. It's simple, and it works.

Please OP, at least look at his website, think it over and call him. Hey, I may be wrong and he may tell you my head is so far up my butt I look through my nostrils just to see where I'm going.

Keep us posted. Things like there will help educate new FABO members and save them time and money
Thanks, I have been on the 3b page that talks about geometry and what to look for in a good set up. I will revisit it when the time comes.
 
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