Butters "Winter Upgrades". . Starting a Little Early

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Very nice!

Now put some performance tires and a sway bar on it. I would recommend some 18x9's or even better 18x9.5's with 275/35R18's on all 4 corners. Oh wait, you have a Dart, not sure you can fit a 275 in the back.

Love the progress. Bet that thing is an absolute dream to cruise in now.
 
I was tempted to try upgrading my torsion bars after I got my subframe connectors in, but I'm not sure my headers will play along with them. I think I at least have the V8 bars in it now, but they are already practically rubbing the headers, and that's with the dent/notch that TTI put in standard. I think my torsion bar crossmember is also not exactly the most robust piece of metal on the car anymore either, so I'm a bit nervous to put too much extra force through it.
 
One thing is for certain... I could've bought a sports car, with what's went into it. Wtf is wrong with us?

While potentially true, the thing I like the most about my Dart is that I make it as close to what I want as I can. I don't have to live with compromises because I can change about anything I want. Seats uncomfortable or not sitting right? Just find new ones and make my new mounts to get them in the car. Engine running funny? It's my own fault, keep working on the tune, lol. Don't like the cruising RPM? Pick a new transmission or swap the rear end gear. I built my car to suit my tastes, I don't have to live with whatever the factory wants to do in a modern car that might be a lot more difficult to change.

Now that's not saying that I think my car is better than modern ones by any means. I still love my Viper and having driven my dad's Challenger to work this morning, they are still worlds apart as far as what kind of cars they are, but the Dart is personal. I'd rather take it to a car show, rust and all, because of how unique it is and all the stuff I've done to it vs taking the Viper.
 
Very nice!

Now put some performance tires and a sway bar on it. I would recommend some 18x9's or even better 18x9.5's with 275/35R18's on all 4 corners. Oh wait, you have a Dart, not sure you can fit a 275 in the back.

Love the progress. Bet that thing is an absolute dream to cruise in now.
Thanks Man

I have a little time to chat, this morning :)

I'm still not sold on 18s lol. Maybe some 17s.. I really like my Rallyes and chunky, ill performing tires. I kinda like the 17" Rallyes and Magnum 500 reproductions, but they have to be set up right. The best looking setup that I've seen was on a car with coil overs and a 4 link, and that's just not in the cards. I dunno.. my brain is always changing directions with wheels, so who knows what'll ever happen. I'm considering a set of sliders from BAC even tho I was planning to mini tub next winter. Still debating..

I'm going to just order a 11.75 brake kit today, from Dr Diff and be done with it. I get frustrated, trying to piece **** together, last minute. I've been more focused on other aspects of the car and just shoved the brakes to the side. And I REALLY need brakes now lol. As Tim said... typical Hot Rodder.

This thing really is a blast to drive, aside from some final tuning that needs to be dialed in. I haven't really done any crazy burnouts or holeshots.. mostly just a hard roll here and there. Revs alot quicker than you'd expect and tags 6500 in an instant. Some of that can be attributed to the 3500ish stall and 8HP gearing, I suppose. Even with 2.73s, 1st is low AF. Highway cruise at 70 is 15-1600. Combined with the new suspension, the highway cruise is awesome. The "in town" and low speed driving is what needs to be focused on. It's weird.. In neutral or light load, you can not touch any RPM between 1000-1400. It jumps from one to the other, no matter how hard you try to tip in gently. So at low speeds, with light or no load, it feels jerky or like theres alot of lash in the drivetrain. Also noticeable when I'm trying to ease out of my longer driveway out of my shop.. try to tip in just enough that it doesn't spin gravel.. just jumps from idle to 1500rpm. Same with rolling away from a stop sign. Something else, which is probably too much air flow, is that the throttle will hang in neutral if rev'd too hard.. So no rev'n for now lol.

It'll get there.. just the typical buried tuner, with too much on his plate.

17 Rallye.png
 
I am in the process of swapping Doctor Diff 11.75 front disc on my car. Very high quality kit. I had an issue where bearings would not slide onto spindles easily tolerances were too tight. Had to use 80 grit sand paper on spindle and bearing inner race to open up tolerances a tad. Usual car project type bull ****. But got past that issue. Luckily I test fitted and found that problem before i packed bearings with grease ect ect ect....

PXL_20250519_235043269.jpg
 
I am in the process of swapping Doctor Diff 11.75 front disc on my car. Very high quality kit. I had an issue where bearings would not slide onto spindles easily tolerances were too tight. Had to use 80 grit sand paper on spindle and bearing inner race to open up tolerances a tad. Usual car project type bull ****. But got past that issue. Luckily I test fitted and found that problem before i packed bearings with grease ect ect ect....

View attachment 1716407977
Nice.. thanks for the info
 
I'm still not sold on 18s lol. Maybe some 17s.. I really like my Rallyes and chunky, ill performing tires. I kinda like the 17" Rallyes and Magnum 500 reproductions, but they have to be set up right. The best looking setup that I've seen was on a car with coil overs and a 4 link, and that's just not in the cards. I dunno.. my brain is always changing directions with wheels, so who knows what'll ever happen.

I like your Rallye wheels too. Are they 15"?

The Year One wheels are cool, but they completely biffed the offset for an A-Body. I think even on a COC car, they require a fairly narrow tire. I like the look of some meat under all 4 corners and a 225 or similar tire is just pointless to me. But that's just me.

The only reason I tossed the idea out there was because of your comment about people ribbing you about your driving and not the car anymore. Really aren't going to see what the car is capable of until you put some real tires on it and even in 17" anymore things are getting limited, but still an option.

Personally, I think a 245/45R17 is a sweet spot. That's what I run on my '74 and with the right offset it was a complete bolt on, didn't touch a thing. Well, other than setting up my hubs to use the Mustang pilot size and a wider rear axle, but that's because I am running an OEM Mustang wheel to save the money. There are even 200TW still available in that size. I think there is a reasonable amount of sidewall and they are wide enough to look good.

If it was me, I would look for a 17x8 or 17x9 solid wheel that fits and paint them body color. With some 245 tires, I think it would still look almost stock but have a modern tire and enough width to work the suspension even if it wasn't maximized. Just an idea.

I'm going to just order a 11.75 brake kit today, from Dr Diff and be done with it. I get frustrated, trying to piece **** together, last minute. I've been more focused on other aspects of the car and just shoved the brakes to the side. And I REALLY need brakes now lol. As Tim said... typical Hot Rodder.

Yeah, you are way past the point of needing to do something with the brakes with the current drivetrain.

But even worse, you are sharing the road with cars that can probably stop in a couple of car lengths less than you, several times. We had a tour from an old guy recently and in his collect is some really old Packard. Huge car that he used to drive, it was even supposed to have carried JFK in a parade if JFK hadn't changed plans and didn't come to the area. We asked him if he would drive it into the big town local to us and his answer was no. His reason wasn't due to mechanical failure or anything like that, it was because he has to leave such a large gap between himself and the car he is following to be able to stop the behemoth and everyone keeps filling that gap. So he just parked it and said enough.

The nice thing about the 11.75" brakes is they really are probably enough and they still leave the option of running 15" wheels. I am a bit of a brake ***** so I want more (13" on the '74 and at least 14" on the '73 in the future) but the reality is that those would probably do the job just fine for me.

It's weird.. In neutral or light load, you can not touch any RPM between 1000-1400. It jumps from one to the other, no matter how hard you try to tip in gently. So at low speeds, with light or no load, it feels jerky or like theres alot of lash in the drivetrain. Also noticeable when I'm trying to ease out of my longer driveway out of my shop.. try to tip in just enough that it doesn't spin gravel.. just jumps from idle to 1500rpm. Same with rolling away from a stop sign. Something else, which is probably too much air flow, is that the throttle will hang in neutral if rev'd too hard.. So no rev'n for now lol.

The rev hang thing is at least partly an OEM thing. I remember people complaining about the new Challengers on a forum because of they couldn't "throw revs" as it would hang and then throttle down slowly.

I wonder if the throttle ramp needs to be tuned some to help with the issue at low rpms. Make it much more gradual.

Either way, I am sure you will get there.
 
While potentially true, the thing I like the most about my Dart is that I make it as close to what I want as I can. I don't have to live with compromises because I can change about anything I want. Seats uncomfortable or not sitting right? Just find new ones and make my new mounts to get them in the car. Engine running funny? It's my own fault, keep working on the tune, lol. Don't like the cruising RPM? Pick a new transmission or swap the rear end gear. I built my car to suit my tastes, I don't have to live with whatever the factory wants to do in a modern car that might be a lot more difficult to change.

Now that's not saying that I think my car is better than modern ones by any means. I still love my Viper and having driven my dad's Challenger to work this morning, they are still worlds apart as far as what kind of cars they are, but the Dart is personal. I'd rather take it to a car show, rust and all, because of how unique it is and all the stuff I've done to it vs taking the Viper.
I agree with ya, Brother. It's always fun to roll up in something you've built.. and I do love a little ratty ol' Mopar with a few surprises. On that note, at times, it can be a little discouraging when you actually participate in a local car show or something. I never go with any intention of winning a single thing, and it's usually more to just hang out and talk cars. BUT, when you see new cars, just off the show room floor with aftermarket center caps and a few decals, take away alot more awards than all of the other amazing "built" cars.. and not just yours.. it really sets in the idea that classic cars are fading away. How many "Transformer" or "Hot Wheels" Camaros are there for Christs sake lol.
 
I like your Rallye wheels too. Are they 15"?

The Year One wheels are cool, but they completely biffed the offset for an A-Body. I think even on a COC car, they require a fairly narrow tire. I like the look of some meat under all 4 corners and a 225 or similar tire is just pointless to me. But that's just me.

The only reason I tossed the idea out there was because of your comment about people ribbing you about your driving and not the car anymore. Really aren't going to see what the car is capable of until you put some real tires on it and even in 17" anymore things are getting limited, but still an option.

Personally, I think a 245/45R17 is a sweet spot. That's what I run on my '74 and with the right offset it was a complete bolt on, didn't touch a thing. Well, other than setting up my hubs to use the Mustang pilot size and a wider rear axle, but that's because I am running an OEM Mustang wheel to save the money. There are even 200TW still available in that size. I think there is a reasonable amount of sidewall and they are wide enough to look good.

If it was me, I would look for a 17x8 or 17x9 solid wheel that fits and paint them body color. With some 245 tires, I think it would still look almost stock but have a modern tire and enough width to work the suspension even if it wasn't maximized. Just an idea.



Yeah, you are way past the point of needing to do something with the brakes with the current drivetrain.

But even worse, you are sharing the road with cars that can probably stop in a couple of car lengths less than you, several times. We had a tour from an old guy recently and in his collect is some really old Packard. Huge car that he used to drive, it was even supposed to have carried JFK in a parade if JFK hadn't changed plans and didn't come to the area. We asked him if he would drive it into the big town local to us and his answer was no. His reason wasn't due to mechanical failure or anything like that, it was because he has to leave such a large gap between himself and the car he is following to be able to stop the behemoth and everyone keeps filling that gap. So he just parked it and said enough.

The nice thing about the 11.75" brakes is they really are probably enough and they still leave the option of running 15" wheels. I am a bit of a brake ***** so I want more (13" on the '74 and at least 14" on the '73 in the future) but the reality is that those would probably do the job just fine for me.



The rev hang thing is at least partly an OEM thing. I remember people complaining about the new Challengers on a forum because of they couldn't "throw revs" as it would hang and then throttle down slowly.

I wonder if the throttle ramp needs to be tuned some to help with the issue at low rpms. Make it much more gradual.

Either way, I am sure you will get there.
Yes, currently 15s in rear, 14s in front (sson to be 15). I'm sure I'll change my mind a few times, before deciding on a wheel/tire combo. But I don't have as many options as the fat Darts haha

Brake kit is ordered. I never really feel uncomfortable with the brakes I have, during normal driving. It actually stops pretty well. 1/4 mile pass will make ya wonder if you've made some bad choices in life tho.

I know what you're saying with the throttle hang.. Hoopty and the last 6.4 did that. That is a factory thing for sure. This is different.. likeif you rev it to 4k, it stays there.. forever lol. Tap that peddle again and it's going wot off the rev limiter. I'm quick on that key!
 
I struggle with the idea of cost, too. Just recently I did a quick cost scenario of what I would like to have in my '73 in the end. Just throwing quick numbers at things and assuming buying kits and not building anything much, I was in the upper $20K range if I included the purchase price of the car.

But if I had my '15 Challenger R/T and my G3/T56 swapped Duster at the same time, and the Duster had AC, I think I would drive the Duster more. And performance wise I am sure the Duster would kick the Challenger's tail. Add that if I am into this car for $10-12K after I get the G3/T56 swap done, I don't believe I would ever find a V8, RWD, 6 speed anything for that price. So while I might end up spending the same or more in the end, I don't have to spend it all up front. But it does mean that I have to wait to enjoy it as compared to buying something and just driving it.

I should add to be completely honest, I still keep thinking an S197 Mustang with a 4.6 would still be the easy button. Good thing my wife is adamant that I will never own a newer Mustang. :D
 

I struggle with the idea of cost, too. Just recently I did a quick cost scenario of what I would like to have in my '73 in the end. Just throwing quick numbers at things and assuming buying kits and not building anything much, I was in the upper $20K range if I included the purchase price of the car.

But if I had my '15 Challenger R/T and my G3/T56 swapped Duster at the same time, and the Duster had AC, I think I would drive the Duster more. And performance wise I am sure the Duster would kick the Challenger's tail. Add that if I am into this car for $10-12K after I get the G3/T56 swap done, I don't believe I would ever find a V8, RWD, 6 speed anything for that price. So while I might end up spending the same or more in the end, I don't have to spend it all up front. But it does mean that I have to wait to enjoy it as compared to buying something and just driving it.

I should add to be completely honest, I still keep thinking an S197 Mustang with a 4.6 would still be the easy button. Good thing my wife is adamant that I will never own a newer Mustang. :D
It's crazy to think what we'd have to sell for, just to recover parts and labor.. I'd get so many laughing faces. But, there is an *** for every seat, is what I always say. I like to think that a guy couldn't have a shop build a car like this for under 40k (solid car/parts/labor) The heart wants what the heart wants...

Last time that I built something and threw a ridiculous price on it, just as a feeler.. the damn thing sold to a guy on Oklahoma. I was shocked. A bigger shocker was he wanted to pay paypal .. I offered to split fees and he said "Nah, I'll just send as friends and family" .. and he did :eek:
 
It's crazy to think what we'd have to sell for, just to recover parts and labor.. I'd get so many laughing faces. But, there is an *** for every seat, is what I always say. I like to think that a guy couldn't have a shop build a car like this for under 40k (solid car/parts/labor) The heart wants what the heart wants...

If I had to have a shop build me something, I wouldn't be in the hobby beyond buying something to drive it. Frankly, it has to come down to wanting something because the new cars are just generally faster and more enjoyable to drive (from a comfort level) and cheaper than having someone build you something. But plenty of shop built cars, there seems to be a whole industry built around it, so there is a market.
 
If I had to have a shop build me something, I wouldn't be in the hobby beyond buying something to drive it. Frankly, it has to come down to wanting something because the new cars are just generally faster and more enjoyable to drive (from a comfort level) and cheaper than having someone build you something. But plenty of shop built cars, there seems to be a whole industry built around it, so there is a market.
Regardless of wealth, I don't think I'd be able to just have something built.. At least not without me being hands on. With nothing to keep my brain busy, compartmentalization would cease to exist and things would get dark, pretty quick lol
 
Regardless of wealth, I don't think I'd be able to just have something built.. At least not without me being hands on. With nothing to keep my brain busy, compartmentalization would cease to exist and things would get dark, pretty quick lol

I thought the same thing. I didn't say it because that is partly why I can (mostly) do my own build.

It's also why a newer car wouldn't exactly be cheaper for me. I can't leave things along so the idea that I would buy something and just drive it isn't being realistic about who I am. And because of that, I wouldn't just have a car payment, I would be trying to spend money on parts at the same time. Not a winning formula.

Ok, maybe that isn't completely true. Not sure I would do much to a Hellcat or maybe even a S197 GT500. But I would have to find something to tinker with and think about.
 
Ok, maybe that isn't completely true. Not sure I would do much to a Hellcat or maybe even a S197 GT500. But I would have to find something to tinker with and think about.
My friend has a 2014 GT500 he special ordered bought new and I have driven it a few times. Pure bliss awesome. Years back another friend of mine took me for ride in his new at time 2015 Hellcat automatic and wow was awesome. I would love to have both those cars. The old cars I think is a different feel different driving experience. But those later model cars yes do everything better.
 
It's crazy to think what we'd have to sell for, just to recover parts and labor.. I'd get so many laughing faces. But, there is an *** for every seat, is what I always say. I like to think that a guy couldn't have a shop build a car like this for under 40k (solid car/parts/labor) The heart wants what the heart wants...

Last time that I built something and threw a ridiculous price on it, just as a feeler.. the damn thing sold to a guy on Oklahoma. I was shocked. A bigger shocker was he wanted to pay paypal .. I offered to split fees and he said "Nah, I'll just send as friends and family" .. and he did :eek:
I had a guy in a new C8 Vette offer to buy my Dart on the spot the other day at a stoplight. I could have thrown him a stupid number, but my car is basically my hobby, so as much as it can aggravate me, I don't know how stupid of a price I would need to say yes.
 
Regardless of wealth, I don't think I'd be able to just have something built.. At least not without me being hands on. With nothing to keep my brain busy, compartmentalization would cease to exist and things would get dark, pretty quick lol

I'm the same way, I realistically could have bought something pretty crazy by the time you look at all in prices, but I've driven a lot of different things including supercars and while they are fun, they are very different than an older car. I'd rather have something to tinker with and that I can make exactly how I want it anyway. Plus if I started with something more expensive I'd probably just end up modifying it too and be in an even bigger hole haha.

I'll go ahead and chime in on the brakes and wheel size discussions from earlier too:

The 11.75 brakes are going to be plenty to overpower most street tires. If you feel you need more in the future you still have the better pads option as well. I also like that they handle 15" wheels. I'm pretty sure I'll go bigger on mine but I'm still tempted to do a beefy 11.75 (1.25" thick) setup so I can throw on some 15s at some point. If nascar can hauls a heavier car down from 200+ then I think I can get them to work.

As for wheel size, I think the 17s look better but you are limited by width on the back because of tie rod clearance. Also tire options are already starting to fade. used wheel options are all over though. Way more 17s then 18s when I look on marketplace. I plan to keep my 17" mustang wheels for street and maybe eventually have some 18's with stickys for the track or autocross. Also, I know we get carried away with wider tires in the handling realm but a 245 is actually pretty good size for an Abody. That is the stock front tire width on a new scat pack and they are probably a good 1000lbs heavier.
 
The 11.75 brakes are going to be plenty to overpower most street tires. If you feel you need more in the future you still have the better pads option as well. I also like that they handle 15" wheels. I'm pretty sure I'll go bigger on mine but I'm still tempted to do a beefy 11.75 (1.25" thick) setup so I can throw on some 15s at some point. If nascar can hauls a heavier car down from 200+ then I think I can get them to work.

This is the key. If you can lock up your current brakes today, larger brakes don't really make you stop any better (though they might let you stop at maximum ability more often). There is more to it than that like pedal feel and just general manners, but from a physics standpoint at least, tires are going to be the number one thing that determines the performance envelope of most cars. You do still have to have a balanced setup to get the most out of the car when braking though. I know I've been struggling with some weird pedal feel and early lockups in my car, but if I'm doing a nice consistent hard pedal push to threshold style braking, I've been fairly happy with the E body fronts that are on my car right now. I just want them to be consistent, which is one reason I'd looked at doing something like the modern Mustang rotor swap on a set of drum brake hubs.
 
Brake conversion came in.. Nice kit. I've been on a quest to find what has turned out to be the elusive 15" BBP pair of Rallye wheels. I did not think it would be so hard lol. Friend of mine is going to Mopars in the Park, over in Illinois, this weekend. We'll see what turns up. Not sure that I want to tear everything down next week, with only days until Power Tour. So it may be an after thing...
 
Brake conversion came in.. Nice kit. I've been on a quest to find what has turned out to be the elusive 15" BBP pair of Rallye wheels. I did not think it would be so hard lol. Friend of mine is going to Mopars in the Park, over in Illinois, this weekend. We'll see what turns up. Not sure that I want to tear everything down next week, with only days until Power Tour. So it may be an after thing...
Too close to the tour... Drive it and enjoy it and do the conversion later. Pet the dogs for me. :)
 
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