Butters "Winter Upgrades". . Starting a Little Early

[DionR]

I wonder, could you flash one of the tunes onto the 5.7 crate motor PCM and try it? It wouldn't control the SRV module, but it would give some idea if the crate PCM OS is different enough that it can control a big cam.

Just make sure to save the 5.7 tune first.

At the same time, my gut says the crate PCM OS isn't about being able to work with a big cam, but is instead about getting a stock motor into a car without the other modules. Far as I can tell, I think the only crate PCM that was available that was outside of the factory offerings was for the Hellephant and everything else was just a factory offering. In fact, the 2 things I can think of that make the crate PCM different are that it is unlocked from the factory, and it doesn't need a start signal over the network. And it doesn't need the downstream O2 sensors. But I bet the rest of it is just the factory tune depending on the application.

The other thing about the crate motor offerings is they all shipped with a clutch, so I wonder if any tuning for low rpm drivability with an auto was removed as well and isn't part of the OS logic.

Which brings up another question. I watched a reel last night from MMX talking about their 5.7 cam offerings and one of the comments he made as he moved up the chain was the issue of converter stall and needing to bump it up as the cam got bigger. I don't remember what you did to the 8HP, but could it help to run a different converter?

 

[Dantra]

I wonder, could you flash one of the tunes onto the 5.7 crate motor PCM and try it? It wouldn't control the SRV module, but it would give some idea if the crate PCM OS is different enough that it can control a big cam.

Just make sure to save the 5.7 tune first.

At the same time, my gut says the crate PCM OS isn't about being able to work with a big cam, but is instead about getting a stock motor into a car without the other modules. Far as I can tell, I think the only crate PCM that was available that was outside of the factory offerings was for the Hellephant and everything else was just a factory offering. In fact, the 2 things I can think of that make the crate PCM different are that it is unlocked from the factory, and it doesn't need a start signal over the network. And it doesn't need the downstream O2 sensors. But I bet the rest of it is just the factory tune depending on the application.

The other thing about the crate motor offerings is they all shipped with a clutch, so I wonder if any tuning for low rpm drivability with an auto was removed as well and isn't part of the OS logic.

Which brings up another question. I watched a reel last night from MMX talking about their 5.7 cam offerings and one of the comments he made as he moved up the chain was the issue of converter stall and needing to bump it up as the cam got bigger. I don't remember what you did to the 8HP, but could it help to run a different converter?

Well, I'd have to buy credits to experiment and honestly, I don't wanna chance jacking one up.

You're right about the crate ecm.. they basically just make it work. The other problem is that mine is not a true MCH. It's been modified and has some tweeks to the tuning. And there are changes to factory tunes over the years to stock tune files. All I can do at this point is wait to see what they figure out... I sure can't

I don't think the converter would affect running in neutral.. that's how I know if it's even worth taking for a drive. It'll surge in park and drive. I have a 3500 stall, as well.

I just found a '23 Scat ECM for $100.. buddy of mine just happened to have one. Gonna send it to Sublime and start over.

 

[Map63Vette]

My gut says that when the factory creates a crate PCM, they are able to flash the OS as well as the tables, while (just a guess) nobody else touches the OS. Much like the above issue with SRV, seems like if the OS and logic could be changed on the PCM, a 6.4 flashed onto a 5.7 PCM would fix the SRV issue.

At the same time, it confuses me that adding missing tables doesn't help. That makes me think the OS is modified when cloning. Either that or the different OS's use different tables for the same things? Ugh, I don't know.



That sounds like something an AI wrote.

As I understand it, the O2 sensor can be used by the PCM to tweak the tune. But that doesn't mean it has the range to adjust for a larger cam or headers. The self learning capability of systems like MS or the Terminator X is a completely different deal. But if someone unfamiliar with the workings of a factory PCM sees that it will adjust the mixture, they might think it can tune on the fly. And the idea that it "kicks in" tables when headers or a cam is added? Sounds like someone is smoking something to me.

BTW, technically the PCM doesn't sense airflow at all, it's a speed density system that calculated airflow. You could kind of say that by reading the O2 sensors as lean, it is "sensing" more airflow, but to me that is kind of like saying "Blake and Ryan said....".

I suspect one of the issues with some PCMs not necessarily having some functions even though you can change the variables likely has to do with what is really happening at a "tune" level. Realistically, I think the vast majority of PCM reverse engineering basically boils down to sending controlled inputs into the known pins and watching the actual hex code for changes to see what the outputs do. We know the pinouts and the signals, so we have a fairly good base to start with. Keep everything else the same and tweak just one input at a time and see how the output changes. It would be like the "JimStim" for a Megasquirt where you can simulate all the engine signals to make sure you are getting the outputs you expect. So as an example, you could hold all the values the same and change just the simulate IAT input and see how the output changes. You might even be able to watch the memory addresses that the controller is accessing with a logic analyzer to see what's changing. From there you could build up a memory map that you assume is the IAT table for instance.

Long story short, you would build up a list of memory addresses that you translate to tables. Do enough ECUs and you might start seeing consistent values. I imagine what is happening on those PCMs that have the variables but not the function is that the memory location is available, but like you said, there is no actual code that references it. You build up a list of parameters over the years from looking at all the different ECMs that translate to memory location, so if the tuning software finds that memory location it thinks the variable exists, even though it's not used. Just looking through the stock tune on HP Tuners for the 06 5.7 that I was using as reference for my MS tune is hard to follow at times. There are all sorts of tables and multiple versions of the same thing (like one table for PW vs fuel delivered and a totally separate table that's just the inverse of fuel delivered vs PW). A lot of the tables also just have junk values or constant values across the whole thing. So I would agree that in all likelihood the "parameters" and the "equations" are two totally separate features of a tune. The parameters are what most people think of when tuning, just the values that you change, but not the underlying formulae. The "equations" would be more like the OS that actually references the parameters. I have some very limited exposure to Danfoss +1 series controllers at my current job and it works in a similar way. You can export and import parameters that are just the variables used throughout the code, or you can do a full reflash that actually changes the logic itself. Maybe the RV OS has some slightly different logic in it, like perhaps ignoring some parameters in an equation that might only be there for emissions or safety stuff, or maybe there are hard caps programmed into the logic that you can't set via parameters and require an OS level flash to change.

 

[Dantra]

I suspect one of the issues with some PCMs not necessarily having some functions even though you can change the variables likely has to do with what is really happening at a "tune" level. Realistically, I think the vast majority of PCM reverse engineering basically boils down to sending controlled inputs into the known pins and watching the actual hex code for changes to see what the outputs do. We know the pinouts and the signals, so we have a fairly good base to start with. Keep everything else the same and tweak just one input at a time and see how the output changes. It would be like the "JimStim" for a Megasquirt where you can simulate all the engine signals to make sure you are getting the outputs you expect. So as an example, you could hold all the values the same and change just the simulate IAT input and see how the output changes. You might even be able to watch the memory addresses that the controller is accessing with a logic analyzer to see what's changing. From there you could build up a memory map that you assume is the IAT table for instance.

Long story short, you would build up a list of memory addresses that you translate to tables. Do enough ECUs and you might start seeing consistent values. I imagine what is happening on those PCMs that have the variables but not the function is that the memory location is available, but like you said, there is no actual code that references it. You build up a list of parameters over the years from looking at all the different ECMs that translate to memory location, so if the tuning software finds that memory location it thinks the variable exists, even though it's not used. Just looking through the stock tune on HP Tuners for the 06 5.7 that I was using as reference for my MS tune is hard to follow at times. There are all sorts of tables and multiple versions of the same thing (like one table for PW vs fuel delivered and a totally separate table that's just the inverse of fuel delivered vs PW). A lot of the tables also just have junk values or constant values across the whole thing. So I would agree that in all likelihood the "parameters" and the "equations" are two totally separate features of a tune. The parameters are what most people think of when tuning, just the values that you change, but not the underlying formulae. The "equations" would be more like the OS that actually references the parameters. I have some very limited exposure to Danfoss +1 series controllers at my current job and it works in a similar way. You can export and import parameters that are just the variables used throughout the code, or you can do a full reflash that actually changes the logic itself. Maybe the RV OS has some slightly different logic in it, like perhaps ignoring some parameters in an equation that might only be there for emissions or safety stuff, or maybe there are hard caps programmed into the logic that you can't set via parameters and require an OS level flash to change.

In simple terms... I think the math aint mathin

 

[Map63Vette]

In simple terms... I think the math aint mathin

Lol, yep. Doesn't matter if you program a value for Z if the equation is only X + Y. I guess that would have been a much easier way to explain it.

 

[Dantra]

Captains log, Star Date -297409.997272958

It was a beautiful weekend here in Indiana and Friday night, my wife surprised me with.. "Lets take something to The Suds on Saturday". It's not often my wife suggests a cruise in the Dart.. or Hoopty. I chose to take the Dart, because I know Hoopty makes her a little anxious, plus he doesn't have the AC that my wife loves. Our daughter and her boyfriend (Bird) took their old 85 W250 as well.

The Suds is the gathering place for all Hot Rods and HR lovers on Saturdays, in Greenwood. You'll see pretty much everything there..old, new, mini bikes, bicycles, **** boxes to Ferraris. Not a big spot, but hundreds gather and cruise this few blocks of street that pass in front of The Suds drive in. The AC worked flawlessly and the Dart behaved for the most part.. a few jerks that I would apologise in advance for. There was a time that we loved this place but it's just kinda "meh" now. Was more fun when we both were really into cars and would meet friends there pretty often. Now, we just sit and talk amongst ourselves and give all of the vette and Mustang guys our favorite disgusted looks haha. If I had a dollar for every mustang and vette, I could've easily bought a new set of tires. They're all very "clicky".. birds of a feather I suppose. I do miss that at times, when we had our own click.. mostly I miss my wife being in love with hot rodding and had her own to dote over. Times change.

Sunday, I decided to take the Dart for a solo beat down run. I haven't really ran it through it's paces on anything other than straightline runs. We live outta town and the road that we live off of, has some pretty good road for suspension testing if you go a little farther out.. alot of sharp curves, sweeping curves going up and down hills with good straight aways between them. I've driven them many times in the Dart but not since doing suspension and brake upgrades. I came home with a grin from ear to ear! I mean really, wow! I pushed it pretty hard without finding it's limit and It made me want more. I can't wait the get the Hotchkis sway bar mounted in Sept (Moparty) I know I joke around saying you need a diaper in this car.. in reality, it's just thrilling to drive. Pre suspension upgrades and initial shakedown runs, it really might make you poo a little, just because it was so unpredictable and the power was unexpected. It feels a bit more tame now with good suspension.. or I have just gotten used to it. Last year at Moparty, I was 8th in the Vintage class.. I think this year, I can get 7th

 

[340sFastback]

So when you went to big car show ppl didn't stop by and say I Used To Have One Like That or My Buddy Had A Car Like That or I Had One Like That Should Have Never Sold It?

 

[Dantra]

So when you went to big car show ppl didn't stop by and say I Used To Have One Like That or My Buddy Had A Car Like That or I Had One Like That Should Have Never Sold It?

Honestly, only few people acknowledged it while we were sitting.. One had a dad that had a 73 and a few others were curious about the Hemi swap. Got alot of looks when I started it tho.. and as we cruised out. Out of all the cars there, I think I was one of only a handful old school Mopars.. Saw a 69 Charger,a few Road Runners and a Cuda or two pass through.

 

[85glht]

So when you went to big car show ppl didn't stop by and say I Used To Have One Like That or My Buddy Had A Car Like That or I Had One Like That Should Have Never Sold It?

It happens all the time... I think it is law or something...

 

[racerjoe]

Captains log, Star Date -297409.997272958

It was a beautiful weekend here in Indiana and Friday night, my wife surprised me with.. "Lets take something to The Suds on Saturday". It's not often my wife suggests a cruise in the Dart.. or Hoopty. I chose to take the Dart, because I know Hoopty makes her a little anxious, plus he doesn't have the AC that my wife loves. Our daughter and her boyfriend (Bird) took their old 85 W250 as well.

The Suds is the gathering place for all Hot Rods and HR lovers on Saturdays, in Greenwood. You'll see pretty much everything there..old, new, mini bikes, bicycles, **** boxes to Ferraris. Not a big spot, but hundreds gather and cruise this few blocks of street that pass in front of The Suds drive in. The AC worked flawlessly and the Dart behaved for the most part.. a few jerks that I would apologise in advance for. There was a time that we loved this place but it's just kinda "meh" now. Was more fun when we both were really into cars and would meet friends there pretty often. Now, we just sit and talk amongst ourselves and give all of the vette and Mustang guys our favorite disgusted looks haha. If I had a dollar for every mustang and vette, I could've easily bought a new set of tires. They're all very "clicky".. birds of a feather I suppose. I do miss that at times, when we had our own click.. mostly I miss my wife being in love with hot rodding and had her own to dote over. Times change.

Sunday, I decided to take the Dart for a solo beat down run. I haven't really ran it through it's paces on anything other than straightline runs. We live outta town and the road that we live off of, has some pretty good road for suspension testing if you go a little farther out.. alot of sharp curves, sweeping curves going up and down hills with good straight aways between them. I've driven them many times in the Dart but not since doing suspension and brake upgrades. I came home with a grin from ear to ear! I mean really, wow! I pushed it pretty hard without finding it's limit and It made me want more. I can't wait the get the Hotchkis sway bar mounted in Sept (Moparty) I know I joke around saying you need a diaper in this car.. in reality, it's just thrilling to drive. Pre suspension upgrades and initial shakedown runs, it really might make you poo a little, just because it was so unpredictable and the power was unexpected. It feels a bit more tame now with good suspension.. or I have just gotten used to it. Last year at Moparty, I was 8th in the Vintage class.. I think this year, I can get 7th

It will be even better with the sway bar. Happy you are enjoying it and feeling the difference from all the upgrades.

 

[TT5.9mag]

Captains log, Star Date -297409.997272958

It was a beautiful weekend here in Indiana and Friday night, my wife surprised me with.. "Lets take something to The Suds on Saturday". It's not often my wife suggests a cruise in the Dart.. or Hoopty. I chose to take the Dart, because I know Hoopty makes her a little anxious, plus he doesn't have the AC that my wife loves. Our daughter and her boyfriend (Bird) took their old 85 W250 as well.

The Suds is the gathering place for all Hot Rods and HR lovers on Saturdays, in Greenwood. You'll see pretty much everything there..old, new, mini bikes, bicycles, **** boxes to Ferraris. Not a big spot, but hundreds gather and cruise this few blocks of street that pass in front of The Suds drive in. The AC worked flawlessly and the Dart behaved for the most part.. a few jerks that I would apologise in advance for. There was a time that we loved this place but it's just kinda "meh" now. Was more fun when we both were really into cars and would meet friends there pretty often. Now, we just sit and talk amongst ourselves and give all of the vette and Mustang guys our favorite disgusted looks haha. If I had a dollar for every mustang and vette, I could've easily bought a new set of tires. They're all very "clicky".. birds of a feather I suppose. I do miss that at times, when we had our own click.. mostly I miss my wife being in love with hot rodding and had her own to dote over. Times change.

Sunday, I decided to take the Dart for a solo beat down run. I haven't really ran it through it's paces on anything other than straightline runs. We live outta town and the road that we live off of, has some pretty good road for suspension testing if you go a little farther out.. alot of sharp curves, sweeping curves going up and down hills with good straight aways between them. I've driven them many times in the Dart but not since doing suspension and brake upgrades. I came home with a grin from ear to ear! I mean really, wow! I pushed it pretty hard without finding it's limit and It made me want more. I can't wait the get the Hotchkis sway bar mounted in Sept (Moparty) I know I joke around saying you need a diaper in this car.. in reality, it's just thrilling to drive. Pre suspension upgrades and initial shakedown runs, it really might make you poo a little, just because it was so unpredictable and the power was unexpected. It feels a bit more tame now with good suspension.. or I have just gotten used to it. Last year at Moparty, I was 8th in the Vintage class.. I think this year, I can get 7th

What would it take to ignite your wife’s passion for hot rodding again? For me and mine, I had to get her involved. Bought the car together, road tripped to pick it up together, built the engine together, and now she’s learning how to weld on it, making her own engine mounts. She’s excited to get “her” car done and I am as well. Hopefully there’s something that can bring your wife back around.

 

[racerjoe]

What would it take to ignite your wife’s passion for hot rodding again? For me and mine, I had to get her involved. Bought the car together, road tripped to pick it up together, built the engine together, and now she’s learning how to weld on it, making her own engine mounts. She’s excited to get “her” car done and I am as well. Hopefully there’s something that can bring your wife back around.

That ain't happening in my house! However, she will volunteer to go for a ride sometimes. It just isn't her thing.

 

[Dantra]

What would it take to ignite your wife’s passion for hot rodding again? For me and mine, I had to get her involved. Bought the car together, road tripped to pick it up together, built the engine together, and now she’s learning how to weld on it, making her own engine mounts. She’s excited to get “her” car done and I am as well. Hopefully there’s something that can bring your wife back around.

I don't that know that the passion will ever return. I've done some builds in the past 5 years and she had zero interest. She'll ask some questions.. say "that sounds neat" but never really expresses much more than that. I think she lost the car bug when we bought this big *** house back in '11. I took a break for a while as well. Just had so much to do, and it took most of the time and spare $$ for a while.

I built one car during covid that she absolutely despised.. I know she did. I built a chop top 70 VW Beetle on air. It took a ton of time. Her first ride in it, she said "I feel like I'm meeting the other woman for the first time" LOL. But she did like it and think it was ok to cruise in. I didn't really enjoy it much after it was built anyway and sold it later down the road.. After that, I thought I'd find something that appealed to her in some ways and be a weekends only build.. she chose a Dart over Barracuda and I was sure to find something with AC, PS and PB. Told her it would be something she could drive and we could maybe go to the Suds with them or shows etc. I think she was just humoring me.. She never really any interest in it. Once I realized that she would never drive it.. I did what I did. Reality is, she doesn't like driving anything that she's not used to. She gets a little anxious.

The only car she ever loved was her Magnum RT.. stock when she got it but we built it to her liking. Finally sold it after 16 years.. she was heartbroken but wanted someone to love it. She has a Hornet GT night edition now. She loves it but nothing will ever take the place of the Magnum. Told her the Hornet would be fun at Moparty And I'm still working on that.. encouraging her. She does love a good 1/4 mile

 

[TT5.9mag]

I don't that know that the passion will ever return. I've done some builds in the past 5 years and she had zero interest. She'll ask some questions.. say "that sounds neat" but never really expresses much more than that. I think she lost the car bug when we bought this big *** house back in '11. I took a break for a while as well. Just had so much to do, and it took most of the time and spare $$ for a while.

I built one car during covid that she absolutely despised.. I know she did. I built a chop top 70 VW Beetle on air. It took a ton of time. Her first ride in it, she said "I feel like I'm meeting the other woman for the first time" LOL. But she did like it and think it was ok to cruise in. I didn't really enjoy it much after it was built anyway and sold it later down the road.. After that, I thought I'd find something that appealed to her in some ways and be a weekends only build.. she chose a Dart over Barracuda and I was sure to find something with AC, PS and PB. Told her it would be something she could drive and we could maybe go to the Suds with them or shows etc. I think she was just humoring me.. She never really any interest in it. Once I realized that she would never drive it.. I did what I did. Reality is, she doesn't like driving anything that she's not used to. She gets a little anxious.

The only car she ever loved was her Magnum RT.. stock when she got it but we built it to her liking. Finally sold it after 16 years.. she was heartbroken but wanted someone to love it. She has a Hornet GT night edition now. She loves it but nothing will ever take the place of the Magnum. Told her the Hornet would be fun at Moparty And I'm still working on that.. encouraging her. She does love a good 1/4 mile

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I’d find a nice used magnum wagon and put twins on it. That’ll light her fire!

 

[Dantra]

I’d find a nice used magnum wagon and put twins on it. That’ll light her fire!

Believe me, I've thought about it. She started a remote Paralegal business about 5 years ago and since then, she just doesn't drive anything enough to really enjoy. The spark is just gone. The Magnum was just peppy enough, made some noise, had plenty of creature comforts, drove really well and did it all reliably and safely. That's hard to find in an older car.

 

[Map63Vette]

It happens all the time... I think it is law or something...

This. Seems like everyone I ever talk to knows someone that had a Dart/Duster at some point in their life. I guess they were the economy cars of the day, so maybe not that surprising, but it is surprising that so few people actually know what the car is, but then when they hear they know someone that had one. At least I've gotten less "nice Nova" comments than before, lol. Though I've had people call mine a Roadrunner at one point even.

 

[racerjoe]

This. Seems like everyone I ever talk to knows someone that had a Dart/Duster at some point in their life. I guess they were the economy cars of the day, so maybe not that surprising, but it is surprising that so few people actually know what the car is, but then when they hear they know someone that had one. At least I've gotten less "nice Nova" comments than before, lol. Though I've had people call mine a Roadrunner at one point even.

I likely seem like a dick when people first talk to me at cruise nights. It's almost like I need to vet them of stupidity before I actually engage. Surprisingly, at the last one I went to, I met a guy that is hoarding gen3 hemis and had an 80s 4x4 D150 with a 6.4 in it. I turned off the Dick Man attitude and actually had a good convo with him. What's interesting to me is, I haven't had this experience at Moparty. However, I'm not hanging out by the car show people.

 

[TT5.9mag]

It's almost like I need to vet them of stupidity before I actually engage.

I do that with ALL people on ALL topics nowadays. Seems stupidity is rampant and out of control.

 

[Map63Vette]

I likely seem like a dick when people first talk to me at cruise nights. It's almost like I need to vet them of stupidity before I actually engage. Surprisingly, at the last one I went to, I met a guy that is hoarding gen3 hemis and had an 80s 4x4 D150 with a 6.4 in it. I turned off the Dick Man attitude and actually had a good convo with him. What's interesting to me is, I haven't had this experience at Moparty. However, I'm not hanging out by the car show people.

I debated doing a truck build like that for a winter daily, just because I'm a glutton for punishment and have enjoyed learning to tune on my 5.7 setup.

 

[85glht]

I likely seem like a dick when people first talk to me at cruise nights. It's almost like I need to vet them of stupidity before I actually engage. Surprisingly, at the last one I went to, I met a guy that is hoarding gen3 hemis and had an 80s 4x4 D150 with a 6.4 in it. I turned off the Dick Man attitude and actually had a good convo with him. What's interesting to me is, I haven't had this experience at Moparty. However, I'm not hanging out by the car show people.

I thought I was the only one...

 

[Cuddy]

Is butters up for sale think I just saw it on marketplace?

 

[Dantra]

Is butters up for sale think I just saw it on marketplace?

I toy with the idea from time to time. A few guys have called my bluff this time and I'm not sure how I feel about it. I really want a RR/GTX but also really like my Dart

 

[85glht]

I toy with the idea from time to time. A few guys have called my bluff this time and I'm not sure how I feel about it. I really want a RR/GTX but also really like my Dart

What would you be looking for $$ wise???

 

[Dantra]

What would you be looking for $$ wise???

Listed it at 35.. Not high enough to scare some guys off. There was one that wanted to come early today.. I've held him off till the weekend. Now if I can go through with it. Eeek

 

[85glht]

Listed it at 35.. Not high enough to scare some guys off. There was one that wanted to come early today.. I've held him off till the weekend. Now if I can go through with it. Eeek

I think it is a fair price considering the amount of work done to the car. I hope the dog approves of the sale!!