Cold start ups =(

[Colin.C]

So my dart (225 /6) every morning when i go to turn it on it takes about 15 minutes to get it to start.. i feel like this is a fuel issue but it will start after about 20 cranks 15 minutes later. after that it runs like a champ all day long.. why would this be happening.. there is no choke hooked up and the carb is tuned pretty well. could this be a bad fuel filter.. fuel pump? idk let me know what you guys think and ill go from there. its not a huge issue cause the cars running amazing but its just a little annoying sitting there for 15 minutes cranking the dang thing over to get her running in the morning.. the thing is ive ran lots of cars without chokes on older motors and they never had this kinda of issues maybe 2 cranks then off they go. i mean are these 225 that fragile that they need full fuel to get them off in the morning.. i live in CALI its not like its supper cold maybe 40 in the mornings at the coldest.


Thoughts..
things i should check out..

 

[Colin.C]

Ohh and also this only started happening about 2 weeks ago when i first got the car it would turn over first crank everytime even on colder mornings then the last few weeks.. so this is a new issue.

 

[cudamark]

Well, it is getting colder and a choke is more important when it's cold. Check to see if your accelerator pump is working. Have you tried giving it extra gas from a primer can to see if it is actually a fuel problem?

 

[67Dart273]

You need to start from the bottom up and do some diagnostics

How old is the car, how many miles on the engine? Does it "use oil?" Does the engine overall seem to be in OK shape?

Even at that, it may have jumped the timing chain

Run a compression check. Buy a screw in compression tester, less than 30 bucks at any parts store, or search Craigslist. Get one which snaps apart and uses a standard air coupler. This is because if you later want to build a leak down tester, or remove/ replace a valve spring, this part of the tool is handy

Do a critical tuneup. Adjust the valves. Examine the distributor

wear in the shaft.

Is the mechanical advance free? Rotate the rotor, and see if it "snaps back" on the spring

Points? Examine or replace the points and condenser. A "new" condenser does not mean good, and a points system MUST have a good condenser

Electronic? Buy a .008 brass feeler gauge, and check the reluctor gap. I was astounded to see that O'Really had these in stock

Set the points if used, and set the timing. Check for timing chain slop by moving the crank ccw and then cw a couple of times, you can "feel" where the timing chaing slop ends. Should not be more than say, 10 degrees

If electronic ignition, wiggle, push/ pull the distributor pickup connector and the ECU connector in/out several times to "scrub" the connectors.

Check your ignition supply voltage. To do this, turn the key on, engine off. Use your digi meter (you DO have one?) to measure ignition voltage, either at the supply side of the ballast or the regulator, or if 70/ later, you can use the blue terminal at the alternator field. This should be within 1/2 volt or less of the battery. Put one probe on the battery positive, the other at the aforementioned points. You do not want to read more than 1/2volt, and it should be less

Inspect the ground on the ECU better yet, loosen /tighten the bolts to be sure

Test the cranking spark. Have someone twist the key (Do not jumper the relay/ solenoid) and use a probe near the coil tower with the wire pulled out. You should get a nice, snappy, hot blue spark at least 3/8" or mor like 1/2" long

Inspect the cap and rotor for grease, carbon, cracks, moisture. Replace if necessary

When was the last time you replaced the plugs or wires?

Now for fuel Next time you start the car, do not do ANYTHING with the starter. First, remove the air filter, use a flashlight, and pump the throttle. You should get a nice strong shot of fuel. If not, you have fuel vapor lock problems, or the pump in the carb (accellerator pump) is worn out.

And I'm worn out thinking about all this

Spending 15 minutes to start a car is ----without mincing words---stupid.

 

[37fleetwood]

I'm going to go out on a ledge here and suggest you may have a combination of problems.
I had a similar issue and the problem was this. when warm the fuel was evaporating out of the carb bowl. this isn't a problem usually because there is fuel in the line. my problem had to do with the check valve in the fuel pump. the gas would drain back in the line. when warm all day it started easy because the fuel hadn't drained all the way back and the fuel in the bowl hadn't all evaporated, but after sitting all night all the fuel in the bowl and in the line was gone, it had to re-prime the pump and pump up gas just like after running it out of gas. if your fuel pump is weak to boot, it will take it even longer to prime the pump and get it up to the carb.

 

[BillGrissom]

I had a 225 w/ Holley 1920 for 20 years. I don't think it will start in the winter without a choke. Maybe you can simulate the choke function by pumping the accelerator, assuming you accel pump works (check it), but then you are likely to flood the engine or rev a cold engine (bad, may spin a bearing).

I had problems adjusting the choke to work both winter and summer in those days when I was a newbie. I finally learned that the choke needs to be fairly tightly closed when cold and the choke pull-off at the top must work to pop it open slightly as soon as the engine catches. Check yours with a vacuum pump. Mine had a torn diaphragm, which happens when a dumb kid (me) sprays carb cleaner too close to it. This experience was in FL and GA, which is similar climate to Chico. I recall less winter problems when I lived in northern Indiana, probably because the "no pull-off" issue didn't make it too rich on those 2 F mornings.

The 225 Slant is considered by many to be the most rugged domestic engine ever made and probably competes with the best Soviet heavy iron or even old Range Rovers. The carb is a totally separate issue from the engine. I doubt the carb on your 225 has any unique features. I have never seen a carb without a choke and the only ones without a pull-off have mechanical chokes. That said, the Holley 1920 seems to have many problems and there must be many bad rebuilt ones for sale since I went thru ~4 over 20 years before I stumbled on one that made my engine run smooth as silk. Many prefer the BBD for the slant six.

 

[cudamark]

Let's not try to reinvent the wheel here. If it eventually starts and runs fine the rest of the day, it's not the timing chain or a compression problem or vapor lock. First, you need to determine if it's a fuel or ignition problem. When you try to start it tomorrow morning, crank it over like you normally do and see if it starts right up. No? then remove the air cleaner lid and squirt a little gas down the intake of the carb. Starts now? is a carb/fuel problem. Still doesn't start, check for spark at the plugs and get back to us.

 

[Colin.C]

Cudamark! i like your thinking. i really think its just a fuel issue.

I have new points (SET RIGHT) new condenser,plugs,rotor, timing chain is fine,coil.. so on and sos forth.. ignition is really not what i think it is.. i think i have a fuel issue either its draining back down the line or something of that sort. cause soon as its running it purs and runs like a charm all day long. it only does this when it sits longer then lets say 8 hours.. of not being on.

Thanks everyone for the thoughts i will even double check everything later today. but im going to trying some spray tomorrow morning and se if thats whats up. dont really want to get to far in depth with tearing into things when its probably a little fix (I HOPE) the accel pump works also..


anyways off topic kinda.
when the car is running and i am gassing it then go to a coast i hear a sizzling noise? like bearings or something could this be my starter? rattling it sounds like the noise when you hot wire from post to post on the starter..

 

[67Dart273]

Let's not try to reinvent the wheel here. If it eventually starts and runs fine the rest of the day, it's not the timing chain or a compression problem or vapor lock. .

I actually misread his post. When he said "runs like a champ" I thought he said something else

Nevertheless, I stand by what I said. Not knowing how old/ how many miles, it IS good practice to give this a good going over. OF COURSE the compression could be low. Just because it runs does not mean it has good compression. And it CAN be related to vapor lock/ fuel boiling. The fuel could be boiling out of the carb on hot shut down. Without knowing his weather conditions, this is a guess.

Cudamark! i like your thinking. i really think its just a fuel issue..

Don't "think" it is, check it out and find out

I have new points (SET RIGHT) new condenser,plugs,rotor, timing chain is fine,coil.. so on and sos forth.. ignition is really not what i think it is..

Again, don't "think", CHECK it. I told you above how, and it takes about 30 seconds. Check the spark. IF it's nice and hot, steady snap snap snap as the engine cranks, then you can think about eliminating the spark as a problem.


I have to be a little brutal here. You've already spent more time on this forum talking about it than it should take you to check about half the stuff I mentioned so far as ignition. It takes very little time to yank off the cap, look at the cap and rotor, crank it over and check the spark, maybe even consider checking continuity of at least the coil to distributor high tension wire.

Have a look at the plugs? A five minute job. You don't need to look at EVERY single one. Look at 3 of 'em, and go from there.

 

[Colin.C]

its all good you are not being to brutal, this is a informative thread. I am very grateful for everyones post! really helps me think through the process.