compression test question

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The cam timing is +4deg advanced. The rest of the specs are:

254 / 266 Advertised Duration, 110 deg LSA
0.435" / 0.435" Theoretical Lift
210 / 218 Duration at 0.050" Tappet Rise


I do recall the head gasket appearing like it was pretty much all-steel, so I bet that I have one of the thinner varieties.

I am 99.9% sure that the engine block was bone stock. I do know the head was shaved either a total of 0.020" or 0.030" from stock.

I may end up converting the distributor to an HEI setup so that the EFI computer can control the timing, in the event that I still get pinging with 92 octane fuelwith the new distributor and corrected initial timing. That way I can custom-tune the advance curve, by trial and error. I'll report out in about a week, when all is (hopefully) said and done.

Appreciate the feedback, guys.
 
Looks like I may have jumped to an erroneous conclusion, again. The pistons being "+.030,too",it seems did not mean out of the hole .030, but more likely +.030 overbore. I thought we were talking about chamber size. So my mistake.
 
In 69DartDave case, I have to wonder if the distributor is one that has more mechanical advance built into it. There were some different ones in different years.
 
70 psig is too low, indeed <90 seems worn to me for a slant. My 1969 had one cylinder ~90 psig which wasn't even firing (raw gas inside) before I replaced it w/ a rebuilt long-block.

But, there are many ways to read compression incorrectly, so verify truly bad w/ a leak-down check. I just connect air pressure to the hose in my Harbor Freight compression test kit and listen for where it is leaking. You will always have leaks past the ring gaps (into the crankcase), and that worries people, though tests have shown that >500 rpm it is of no concern, and that special gap-less rings have little value. If using one of the old "press hard on piston hole" gages, you can get very erratic readings. Of course, remove the spark tubes first (pre-1978 slant) or you could leak-by down there. Finally, if the Shraeder valve in the end gage fitting is stuck or the wrong type you will get bad readings. Don't ever use one for a car or bicycle tube (need white ring w/ very weak spring).

The reason that exact pressures are often not spec'ed is because they vary w/ after-market camshafts, how fast the starter turns the engine, if your gage kit displaces the same volume as the spark plug did, etc. Also, try the poor-boys test. Turn the engine over by hand, feeling for each cylinder resisting as an "air spring". If you feel 3 strong ones per rev and each takes a while to hiss down (>3 sec), you have a fine engine and your measurement technique is in question. Kick-over a motorcycle and you will understand.
 
I prefer to shove some rope into a cylinder and bring the piston up to hold the valves closed rather than use air.

I would change the seals too before doing anything just to see what happens. The cast a pittance. But the stem to guide clearance may well be way out at this point.

Also, be aware that if the oil rings or 2nd rings are badly shot, then the oil past the rings may make the compression look better than it really is. In that is the case, general performance and other symptoms are the indicators you have to depend on. And a leak down test.
Thank you for input regarding valve stem seals on a 225 Chrysler Industrial gas engine for a 1975 Lull. I have decided and started to replace the seals with the head still on (using the rope-in-the-spark-plug-hole trick.)

Here's where I'm at: When ordering parts for this engine I always use "1970 Dart" (parts counter people look at me like I have 6 heads if I say "Lull") and the parts always fit. Auto Zone supplied me with two seal types: Fel-Pro SS13955 for intake valves (longer "umbrella" type) , and SS12764 for exhaust valves (shorter type.) On my engine I observe that both the intake and exhaust valves have the longer, umbrella types. (I have read elsewhere in this forum that this is acceptable practice.) These seals aren't in as bad a shape as I anticipated and believe that they were replaced somewhere along the line. However, I'm not sure whether they are the right ones for an Industrial engine. They appeared to have worked their way up the valve stems, not staying situated on the guide, which may be the reason why the engine smokes so much. I have installed the new Fell Pros on two valves and it appears the same thing will happen.

I have read that some of the differences between a regular Slant 6 and an Industrial is that Industrials "come with stellite valves, hardened seats, and polyacrylic valve stem seals." I've also read that seals are available "with metal bands around them." So the question is, does anyone know for sure what the proper valve stem seals are for a Chrysler Slant Six Industrial gas engine?
 
You have the right ones. They are called umbrella for the exact reason you noted; they are basically just deflectors.The first time a valve opens the seal rides up and stays there.What you need to keep in mind is that at about the time the piston is pulling the hardest, the valve is nearly wide open and the deflector is sitting right where it needs to be.
To use the positive seals with the band clamps, the guide bosses would need to be machined.But they will really dry up your stems.
 
You have the right ones. They are called umbrella for the exact reason you noted; they are basically just deflectors.The first time a valve opens the seal rides up and stays there.What you need to keep in mind is that at about the time the piston is pulling the hardest, the valve is nearly wide open and the deflector is sitting right where it needs to be.
To use the positive seals with the band clamps, the guide bosses would need to be machined.But they will really dry up your stems.
Thank you for the info. I'll put the rest of this 225's valve train back together and keep you posted.
 
You have the right ones. They are called umbrella for the exact reason you noted; they are basically just deflectors.The first time a valve opens the seal rides up and stays there.What you need to keep in mind is that at about the time the piston is pulling the hardest, the valve is nearly wide open and the deflector is sitting right where it needs to be.
To use the positive seals with the band clamps, the guide bosses would need to be machined.But they will really dry up your stems.
This valve stem seal replacement job I finished: replaced the seals, thoroughly cleaned the rocker arms, shaft, springs and areas around the valves and guides (It was a cruddy mess) and re-installed. I set the valve lash, installed new spark plug tube O-rings and a new valve cover gasket. The engine fired right up and runs very well. There&#8217;s zero blue smoke at start up, at idle, and at mid range RPM but it still smokes at full throttle. This was an inexpensive, not too time consuming worthwhile endeavor, but my question is, could the source of the smoking at high RPM indicate high oil volume working its way into the combustion chamber due to worn valve guides? (There is some wiggle in some of the valves.) Again, my compression numbers are 120-145-135-120-125-120. I still may spring for a full valve job but some smoking and oil consumption isn&#8217;t a big deal for what I use this machine for (lifting lumber).
 
No; smoking under load, is ring seal, or rather lack of it.

At WOT there is very little vacuum, so the guideseals are out of the picture.
Old tired oil scrapers, leave oil on the cylinder walls, which then get burned and come out the tailpipe.Tired compression rings, allow some of the cylinder pressure to leak by, which ends up in the crankcase, where it is forced backwards through the PCV system, and goes back into the carb to be burned. Since this "air" is now loaded with oil vapors, more smoke is created.No PCV?, Then the vapors go out the road-draft tube. No tube? Then it blows out whatever seal is the weakest , and pukes oil all over everything.
Your compression numbers are telling the story;
120/145=82.8%, so 100% less 82.8% leaves 17% as leaked,gone,mia, on vacation,see-ya,bye. And worse is the 145 may be leaking 5%,or 10%,or who knows how much, all by itself;nobody knows.
Long story short; don't floor it, heehee.
 
As above, WOT smoke is usually weak, shot, or broken rings. Probably not borken as yo are getting reasonable compression on all cylinders. BTW, I would not get carried away over the 145 psi; the older factory manuals say 110-140 psi as a range limit for the /6's. It could be excess oil or a valve adjustment that is causing the 145 psi reading. Oil in the cylinders can make readings look good. I'd just live with it for now and be ready with the mosquito spraying jokes.

The 'cruddy mess' in the top of the head is an indication of poor maintenance and oil changes, old Quaker State and Pennzoil having been used, and/or perhaps gas getting into the crankcase from a leaky carb. If your oil drains out strangely thin and watery, look for a gas leak from the carb or the fuel pump. I would suspect #1 cylinder being pretty worn with the smoke; that one tends to run cool (at least in the cars) and wear out faster; inline 6's seem to do that .
 
And Gulf Oils cheap line. Gulf was swallowed by Petro-Can back in the 80s I think. That stuff was horribly ashy. Back then I was pro-Canadian, and Petro-Can was Canadian so I bought that stuff. My plugs kept ash-fouling, and being young and unlearned, I didn't put it together. Eventually that teener had to come apart. Well there was a lot, a LOT, of ash stuck in every crevice, nook,and cranny. I never bought another can of that stuff again, and it never fouled another plug.
 
re: Lull 225 Slant 6

re: PCV. This Lull engine does have a PCV system. PCV valve rattles and breather and lines are clean.

re: "cruddy mess." When I bought this machine, I had the carburetor rebuilt, and replaced the fuel pump, and the oil isn't watered down with gas when I change it; so in the time I've owned it, gas isn't leaking into the crankcase. I bought it in 2000 so by that time it was already 25 years old; the hour meter read 5000+ but wasn't working. Other than the carb and fuel pump replacement, tune ups, and oil and filter changes, I've done nothing with the engine (until this recent valve stem seal replacement). I didn't know its maintenance history, but looking at it when I bought it, it definitely was not maintained as well as it should have been.

re: "As above, WOT smoke is usually weak, shot, or broken rings. Probably not borken as yo are getting reasonable compression on all cylinders. BTW, I would not get carried away over the 145 psi; the older factory manuals say 110-140 psi as a range limit for the /6's. It could be excess oil or a valve adjustment that is causing the 145 psi reading. Oil in the cylinders can make readings look good."

This is where I'm a little confused. The vibe I'm getting from AJ/FormS is that 145 psi, the highest compression reading I have, would be the benchmark for the entire engine, and numbers less than that in the other cylinders should be filed under "compression loss" (?) (And what about the +/- 25psi rule for general engine health?) And besides this forum, I've read that 125psi is an acceptable number for a stock 225. If "oil in the cylinders is making the compression look good," what would be the source of the oil when I do the compression test, if that indeed is my case? (up from the pan thru worn rings or down from the top thru worn valve guides?) (I'm not squirting oil into the cylinders when I do the compression test.) And what I'm getting from nm9stheham is, piston rings can be "weak or shot" and still give good compression numbers (?)

This engine always starts right up, and besides the smoking at high rpm, it purrs like a kitten and runs like a top. It refuses to die. The reason I ask all of this is, if I knew that the smoking would cease with a valve job, I would have that done, because accessing that part of the engine is super easy. Removing the entire engine for a ring job would be one big pain-in-the-***, because all of the hydraulics would have to be removed. And if I was going to do that, I would simply get another engine (I see a 22,000 mile Valiant engine on C/L for $700.)

Maybe all of this is "Tired Engine 101," but it's not all that clear to me. I'll do another compression test to see if the numbers have changed since I've changed the stem seals and adjusted the valves. Thank you for the feedback.
 
LullCamp, your compression readings are great and your engine is fine. Is your WOT smoke blue? That indicates oil burning. White smoke is either "too rich" or "coolant in exhaust". The later would show in radiator loss. When you do get a used engine, $700 is a fantastic price for the seller. People give away slant engines because little market since so many upgrade to a V-8. No sense settling for anything but a pristine slant, and ~$200 tops, unless it comes w/ goodies like 4 bbl intake or Offy valve cover.
 
LullCamp, your compression readings are great and your engine is fine. Is your WOT smoke blue? That indicates oil burning. White smoke is either "too rich" or "coolant in exhaust". The later would show in radiator loss. When you do get a used engine, $700 is a fantastic price for the seller. People give away slant engines because little market since so many upgrade to a V-8. No sense settling for anything but a pristine slant, and ~$200 tops, unless it comes w/ goodies like 4 bbl intake or Offy valve cover.
It's blue-oil burning.
 
re: Lull 225 Slant 6
The vibe I'm getting from AJ/FormS is that 145 psi, the highest compression reading I have, would be the benchmark for the entire engine, and numbers less than that in the other cylinders should be filed under "compression loss" (?) (And what about the +/- 25psi rule for general engine health?) And besides this forum, I've read that 125psi is an acceptable number for a stock 225.
This engine always starts right up, and besides the smoking at high rpm, it purrs like a kitten and runs like a top.I'll do another compression test to see if the numbers have changed since I've changed the stem seals and adjusted the valves. Thank you for the feedback.

Yes the 145 is the benchmark. But we don't know if that number is high or low. Here comes more confusion; The cylinder might have had more than 145 when it was fresh. If it had say 155 new then 1 - (145/155) =6.5% leakage from new.It also means all the other cylinders are worse than you thought; and really the engine could be called a core. This is why we do a leakdown test on an engine such as yours, in conjunction with the pressure test. Suppose you did a leakdown test on the weakest cylinder, and it showed absolutely just 5 % leakage. What are we to think ,then? Or if that high cylinder showed 10% leakage; what then? And these are distinct theoretical possibilities.The LD test is a snapshot of leakage at TDC;that's all. That cylinder with the low compression and theoretiocal 5% LD could have a wristpin gouge 3 inches long in the cylinder. That would be junk. But the LD says otherwise.
On the flipside, that cylinder with 145 psi and 10% leakage, could have 1cc or 2cc of carbon in the chambers, artificially decreasing the chamber size and thereby increasing cylinder pressure. But at TDC it is junk, according to the LD test.
So the two tests need to be studied and carefully analyzed. And sometimes additional tests need to be developed.
Now as to the 25psi rule.You list it as +/-, and this then allows 50 psi variance.This IMO is absurd. It would allow a typical slanty to have pressures of 75 to 125, and would be totally unacceptable.
But let's say you really meant a 25psi variance. This then would then allow 100 to 125 psi. The first thing is we know nothing else about the cylinder with 125psi.When new it could have had 135,or 145, or 155 etc. Lets say it hat 145! Well, again 1-(125/145) =about 14% leakage. That means that good cylinder is already worn out. So how about the one with 25psi less? Ok but let's do an LD on it. So we come up with 5% leakage. Well thats not too bad right. If all the cylinders were at 5 %, we would still have a smooth-running easy-starting slanty. It would just be tired, that is not very powerful. It would require a lot more throttle to do the job it used to do, and it would use a lot more fuel doing it, and it would require more frequent oil-changes. If it still had enough power to do the tasks it was called upon to do, then a guy could justify leaving it alone.
You see the interplay of compression test and LD test and Analysis?
Getting close to the end now;
Now, getting back to your slanty;with just the compression results to go on, 120-125-120-135-145-120, we also have to consider your other statements.Such as "This engine always starts right up, and besides the smoking at high rpm, it purrs like a kitten and runs like a top." In this case I would throw out that hi cylinder reading and call it an anomaly. Then I would average the rest =124 psi, and you are running on the money. Furthermore the difference from highest to lowest omitting the anomaly is just 9psi and the % difference is just 11%.So taking that at face value, your engine is in fine condition. Except for the smoking under full power.
Home-stretch now;
As to that smoking, there is another possibility; a too-high oil level. If the crank is whipping the oil into a froth and overloading the rings, it will smoke. Or if the engine is operated at a steep angle that would push some of the oil to one end, same deal; crank picks it up and smoke comes out the tp.
And done!
 
We can talk about the compression numbers all day but it only has limited meaning. Sorry to disagree, but the one being high is not a great indicator of where the engine started; it can be a cylinder that is getting a bit more oil up past the oil and 2nd rings and onto the 1st ring and that will seal it up and it will look good. And my /6 before rebuilding had consistent pressures in the 110-125 psi range despite the #1 cylinder being worn over .015" ; it read right in the middle at 115 psi.... multiple times !

And the pressure range is 25 or 30 psi total, not +/- 25 psi. The 110-140 psi limit I quoted is directly from the early 60's FSM' and is the acceptable service limit.

The oil smoke at WOT is a classic symptom of worn bores and pistons, and/or rings being worn, weak, broken, or stuck. Some Sea Foam in the cylinders is probably the best thing to attempt to free sticky rings; after that IMHO, there is not much else to try. Doing a leak down test would be a good step but it is not going to tell you anything different than we already know from the oil smoke at WOT tells us. And a valve job is not the move that would be expected fix oil smoke at WOT; 'specially after the stem seals are refreshed.

If it is liveable, then IMHO just run it. And yes, $700 is way too much. My well rebuilt /6 has only $1100 in it.
 
nm9
I agree with your logic;that it is also correct and very good. But I feel it is a shortcut to the finish-line.
I was merely trying to bring Lull up to speed, who admitted he was confused, and for good reason.Now he has the "rest of the story"
 
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