Counterfeit Cars on FABO!!!

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I tend to shy away from cars being sold with catch phrases like "Numbers Matching", or "all original", even "a real head turner".

For some unknown reason each of these phrases or claims is an indication of someone asking too much for a car.

Also, if the seller has the "condition" of the car listed, I automatically assume it is at least one category lower than claimed.
 
There seem to be more barn finds then there are Barns. Everycar on CL is a 1 of 1 super rare barnfind blah, blah blah horseshit
 
I guess there is some grey area in this. But consider THIS one.... there is a certain two tone green 70 340 swinger currently for sale...While researching the fender tag codes, I found a link back to this very sight, where the owner admitted the orig car was rusted to nothing, and EVERYTHING was swapped onto a /6 car.....vin/fender tag/motor/trans/rally dash ect......It has been a few years, and it is NOW being presented as a numbers matching orig car.....with a corresponding high price.... Thanks to the internet, the information is there forever for anyone who wants to research.
 
Zombie threads and zombie cars.
Sometimes I think the only thing that is the car is the VIN.
Redux.

FOUND!
Another one of the 11 1971 Hemi Cuda convertibles has been found under the bed of a brothel in Salt Lake City.
No one is quite sure how it got there.
But Mopar experts from around the country have verified it and after a complete concourse restoration it is sure to be featured in the “official” publications..
Noted authority Gail Gopher has inspected the car and suggested the use of only NOS parts. "I can absolutely assure all that this car is the real thing" he said.
The restoration is scheduled to begin as soon as a suitable doner car is located.
Also there is talk of launching a new website:
“for1971HemiCudaconvertableownersonly.com” which is expected to have as many as 11 registered users.
 

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..if you make 1 car out of 2 wrecks,which one is it...the one that has the original vin
or the one with the largest quantity of parts used?
 
This brings up the philosophical discussion about a hammer. Suppose your grandfather gives you his hammer that you cherish. The handle breaks and you replace it, is it still your grandfather's hammer? A little later the claw portion breaks while pulling nails and you replace that, is it still your grandfathers hammer?

This whole VIN #'s matching is simply a mind game that makes some cars worth more than others. It's stupid. If I collect the correct parts and make a "clone" car. Arguably a better clone than some "originals" yet simply because it didn't roll down the assembly line that way it's worth less. It shouldn't be.

We have created this problem by assigning value (read dollars) into things that don't matter. As long as people are willing to pay a premium for a little piece of metal that is riveted on the fender of a car, than people will attempt to game the system.

Regards,

Joe Dokes
 
Joe Dokes said:
This brings up the philosophical discussion about a hammer. Suppose your grandfather gives you his hammer that you cherish. The handle breaks and you replace it, is it still your grandfather's hammer? A little later the claw portion breaks while pulling nails and you replace that, is it still your grandfathers hammer?
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It's no longer grandpa's hammer after you break the claw...

Handles are easy to replace. It's the metal claw portion that makes the hammer...
 
I always wondered if a car is so rusty that it takes all new Sheet metal, all around is it still really that car? isn't it just a all "New" car at the point even if it has the Original Drivetrain. I think a truly All original car would have every piece on it that the factory installed, But I understand that is a very rare occurrence.
 
I would rather spend my money on a re-bodied car, done right, than spending my money on a car that has most sheetmetal parts from AMD, Year One, Whamco, Ronco, 42 assorted parts cars from here to Guatamalla, and was welded together by Joe's Bar, Grille, and Restorations. I guess I'm just dumb.
 
haha , some great posts up there:sign5:


I couldn't agree more with the whole numbers horseshit. I was there once , and it sucked the fun right out my hobby. screw your date coded throttle return spring , ill use a coathanger
 
A38Valiant said:
I would rather spend my money on a re-bodied car, done right, than spending my money on a car that has most sheetmetal parts from AMD, Year One, Whamco, Ronco, 42 assorted parts cars from here to Guatamalla, and was welded together by Joe's Bar, Grille, and Restorations. I guess I'm just dumb.
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my car started life as a 70 swinger with a 225 and factory AC, When we got it ( many years ago) the motor had already been swapped out for a 1966 225. in the last few years it has had the complete underneath from front to back swapped in from a 74 swinger and all the complete sheet metal from the doors back replaced. it had a 1969 318 and now has a 1985 360 and this winter i will be stripping and replacing all the sheet metal from the doors forward. the seats are from a mid 80s VW (jetta it think).


So my car is a perfect example of a mix and match hodge podge of parts that is a mere shell of its former self but the most important thing is that it was the car that my dad and i worked on together. It is still a 1970 swinger with the original frame vin and fender tag And thats the way it will always be as long as i own it (which i hope is as long as i am alive)
 
I have a Hodge Podge Dodge too. Budget builds are cool. My comment was geared towards the crowd who calls the "one of ***, numbers matching" car that now features Taiwan sheetmetal and mig wire a "proper restoration", yet cries foul if somebody rebodies a car using a shell that has all Chrysler metal, welded together by Chrysler.
 
A38Valiant said:
I have a Hodge Podge Dodge too. Budget builds are cool. My comment was geared towards the crowd who calls the "one of ***, numbers matching" car that now features Taiwan sheetmetal and mig wire a "proper restoration", yet cries foul if somebody rebodies a car using a shell that has all Chrysler metal, welded together by Chrysler.
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It is funny when started writing my reply there was not much taking about a total tear down/rebuild and I got sidetracked ( fortunately I copied it just in case) and the site logged me out. And when I came back there was a few right in a row talking about it. So I hear what ur saying and I quoted you because it seemed to be the closest to what my car is all about.

:blob:
 
73AbodEE said:
haha , some great posts up there:sign5:


I couldn't agree more with the whole numbers horseshit. I was there once , and it sucked the fun right out my hobby. screw your date coded throttle return spring , ill use a coathanger
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Ur Damn right and that's also the same reason I'll paint under my hood any color I please. :blob:
 
limegreen70 said:
I always wondered if a car is so rusty that it takes all new Sheet metal, all around is it still really that car? isn't it just a all "New" car at the point even if it has the Original Drivetrain. I think a truly All original car would have every piece on it that the factory installed, But I understand that is a very rare occurrence.
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^^^^^ agree. I think a rust free shell with the correct swapped parts is better than buying a truck load of steel and making a body. Original welds vs. chicken scratch. That makes it a KIT car in my opinion. Keep original metal.
 
"Hodge Podge Dodge" lol
That's the story of my car to a ''T''.
'74 Dart Sport, 360 engine out of an '80 Chrysler 4 door, Exhaust manifolds out of a '74 Dart Sport 340, '71 4 speed trans with shifter out of a Duster 340, Bellhousing and linkage out of a '74 Duster as well as the fan and radiator, K-member and front suspension out of a '74 hang 10 318 Dart Sport, all interior and wiring out of a '75 Dart Sport slant 6 - 4 speed o/d car as well as the sport mirrors and windshield, left front fender off of a '75 Dart 4 door, driver's door off of a '74 Duster, hood scoop off of a '74 360 Dart Sport, Trunk floor out of a rolled '73 Dart Sport, rear rallye wheels off of a '76 Cordoba (15 X 61/2''), front 14 X 5'' rallye wheels off of a '73 Dart Sport 340, Driveshaft from of a '71 340 Duster, 8/3/4 Rear end complete out of my old '69 Super Bee with the spring pads moved in 1/2'' on each side.
There's a lot more little things that i can't remember, and probably a lot more to come!
Bottom line is i kept the original dash V.I.N. the car was ''born'' with in place and fender tag on the car and it still says it's a slant six column auto car. The 225 slant six engine tune up sticker is still in place on the inner fender and is in excellent shape! That's the only way i would have it.
A clone yes, a fake, no way, and that would be obvious to anyone looking at the car.
I would never swap V.I.N. tags onto another car for fun or profit.
I actually have a beater '74 Dart Sport 360 4 speed car that i could have done this with, but it's not my style.
Check out my build thread for more info.........
Tom.
 
there are cars with their original sheetmetal and then there are " quilt cars" !!!????? there former are hard to find except maybe in a granny car??/ and if you do find one in a H P model, it will be worth some bucks no doubt.
 
barbee6043 said:
there are cars with their original sheetmetal and then there are " quilt cars" !!!????? there former are hard to find except maybe in a granny car??/ and if you do find one in a H P model, it will be worth some bucks no doubt.
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That's why originals bring more money than clones... :glasses7:

But the clone owners can't understand why... #-o

Or try to pass them off as originals to get more $$$....
 
years back, finding a 69 up REAL performance car with the original eng trans was very rare. ( some 68 cars had the build sequence no on the back upper part of a B B).. I had a mopar buddy that was always calling with a car he "found" for sale. the car in this case was a 69 roadrunner, 383 car with the original eng/trans. now this car had been in his country ever since new. had changed hands over that 30 year period many times, and had many engines installed in it, he basically knew every time it sold and the history of it as decades went by.
what was funny back then the 90's decade lets say. if I had a car like this for sale ( once in a blue moon). NO ONe was looking for this #'s thing. then if I had a say real roadrunner but with a different 383 planted in it, No ONE was interested, HAD to be a numbers match stuff!!! ther crack me up!!!

when this clone thing first started, I wondered WHY!????? there were plenty of let say, REAL 383 project cars around. even a real hemi runner ROLLER could be found for realistic $$$$. yes you had to network and look. I personally feel all this clone thing started with people looking for a quick buck selling junk thru B J,,,,,
I have never had a problem taking lets say an early B body and stuffing a 440 in it. I just called it a 65 coronet with a 440 I stuffed in it, my description! HA
 
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