DOES THE HDK SUSPENSION K-MEMBER HANDLE BETTER THAN A T-BAR SUSPENSION?

[DionR]

Here is the article that goes with the video:

Traction Test - The Best 200-Treadwear Tires

To find out, we test seven popular tire brands, all street-legal “summer performance” tires, all speed rated to more than 149 mph, and all legal for 200-treadwear classes.

www.hotrod.com

Couple of points of interest:

1. "Tire Rack regularly tests product, but its test car of choice is the 2012 BMW 328i."

2. "Woody said the Satellite was more than a second quicker per lap than Tire Rack's standard BMW test cars, running times similar to his personal autocross car, a race-prepped Honda S2000."

3. "Not bad for a 3,850-pound taxi cab."

Google AI overview says a 2012 328i weights:

• 2012 BMW 328i Sedan: 3,406 lbs
• 2012 BMW 328i Coupe: 3,362 lbs
• 2012 BMW 328i Convertible: 3,825 lbs

I doubt it was the convertible, seems like it was the sedan.

 

[Super-Cuda]

Professional Purpose built track car? Ha ha ha ha. You make me laugh sad clown. All of the **** on that car can be bought over the counter. In fact I did. I have a complete hotchkis tvs kit for my dart I have yet to install. Bought it 15 years ago. Custom leaf springs? You mean hotchkis leafs? lol again. And if you think a 2012 M3 is anything but a fuckin track weapon you need to seriously reconsider things. That’s why tire rack uses them for testing!! They are a significant benchmark.

BTW.

These are the leaf springs in the " Taxi".

Most would call them custom and far from stock Mopar issue.


1967-1970 Mopar B Body Geometry Corrected Sport Leaf Springs

 

[DionR]

Also, from reading the articles on the "taxi" , I saw several companies were involved with the build, including Hotchkiss . No issue with the fact that all the parts can be bought.
Who assembles them and their level of expertise is another.

I think you are reading way too much into who built it. When the parts are a bolt on, it doesn't take an expert to bolt them on. Not saying someone can't screw it up, but it's not like the '76 Dart Lite they built where it was almost all custom fabrication. The only potential weld on parts are the subframe connectors and even that doesn't warrant the label of "expert built".

I understand that you didn't get the same results with your TB build before swapping to a RMS kit, but it's not because they are experts. It's because you didn't go far enough, (e.g. 383 torsion bars and a 340 Formula S swaybar aren't anywhere near big enough).

 

[TT5.9mag]

BTW.

These are the leaf springs in the " Taxi".

Most would call them custom and far from stock Mopar issue.


1967-1970 Mopar B Body Geometry Corrected Sport Leaf Springs

Nope. Just leaf springs anyone can buy. Not custom in any sense of the word.

 

[TT5.9mag]

Here is the article that goes with the video:

http://[URL]https://www.hotrod.com/how-to/the-best-200-treadwear-tires-test

[/URL]

Couple of points of interest:

1. "Tire Rack regularly tests product, but its test car of choice is the 2012 BMW 328i."

2. "Woody said the Satellite was more than a second quicker per lap than Tire Rack's standard BMW test cars, running times similar to his personal autocross car, a race-prepped Honda S2000."

3. "Not bad for a 3,850-pound taxi cab."

Google AI overview says a 2012 328i weights:

• 2012 BMW 328i Sedan: 3,406 lbs
• 2012 BMW 328i Coupe: 3,362 lbs
• 2012 BMW 328i Convertible: 3,825 lbs

I doubt it was the convertible, seems like it was the sedan.

He did reference 2012 BMW M3 in the video.

 

[Super-Cuda]

Nope. Just leaf springs anyone can buy. Not custom in any sense of the word.

I guess what I meant was that they are a specially made hi performance replacement spring. Custom was the wrong terminology as any one can buy them.

But, not a Mopar spring but an aftermarket upgraded replacement better than stock. ( That should set this **** show on fire again LOL !)

 

[junkyardhero]

I guess what I meant was that they are a specially made hi performance replacement spring. Custom was the wrong terminology as any one can buy them.

But, not a Mopar spring but an aftermarket upgraded replacement better than stock. ( That should set this **** show on fire again LOL !)

so are SS springs.

 

[TT5.9mag]

I guess what I meant was that they are a specially made hi performance replacement spring. Custom was the wrong terminology as any one can buy them.

But, not a Mopar spring but an aftermarket upgraded replacement better than stock. ( That should set this **** show on fire again LOL !)

Here are my super custom (nope), one off (nope), hand made (nope), one of a kind (nope), only pair in existence (nope), hotchkis leaf springs.

 

[TT5.9mag]

And in these two special (nope) boxes, there is everything you need to build a super trick (nope), high end (nope), custom (nope), professional (nope), race (nope) car.

 

[Super-Cuda]

And in these two special (nope) boxes, there is everything you need to build a super trick (nope), high end (nope), custom (nope), professional (nope), race (nope) car.
View attachment 1716447443

Are these the same springs as you bought 15 years ago?


1967-1976 Dodge A-Body Geometry Corrected Leaf Springs

1967-1976 Dodge A-Body Geometry Corrected Leaf Springs​

Hotchkis Sport Suspension 24385 1967-1976 Dodge A-Body Geometry Corrected Leaf Springs. Dramatically improve your classic A-Body cornering performance traction and overall fun factor with Hotchkis Sport Suspension's Geometry Correcting Sport Leaf Springs. Specifically designed to reduce roll steer this kit features a Hotchkis exclusive Geometry Correcting Bolt-In Relocation Bracket paired with 130lb/in lightweight leaf springs to improve handling performance and balance. The 1 in. lowering design reduces the vehicle's center of gravity and improves overall appearance. The system includes CNC Bet Relocation Brackets Grade-8 Hardware Polyurethane and Rubber Bushings and a pair of track-tested leaf springs. Bolt a set on today and feel the performance gain. Features: CNC Bent Geometry Correcting Bolt-In Relocation Brackets Reduce Roll Steer. 130 lb /in. springs. Improve Handling Response and Balance. Lightweight 3 Leaf Design Reduces Spring Un-sprung Weight by when compared to competitions springs. Lowers Vehicle approximately 1 in. Includes a proven track-tested combination of High Durometer Polyurethane and Rubber Bushings. Painted Gloss Black Finish Benefits: Improves vehicle handling and traction. Reduces Roll Steer for improved corner balance and feel Lowers Vehicle approximately 1 in.
$598.50
SK

 

[TT5.9mag]

Are these the same springs as you bought 15 years ago?


1967-1976 Dodge A-Body Geometry Corrected Leaf Springs

1967-1976 Dodge A-Body Geometry Corrected Leaf Springs​

Hotchkis Sport Suspension 24385 1967-1976 Dodge A-Body Geometry Corrected Leaf Springs. Dramatically improve your classic A-Body cornering performance traction and overall fun factor with Hotchkis Sport Suspension's Geometry Correcting Sport Leaf Springs. Specifically designed to reduce roll steer this kit features a Hotchkis exclusive Geometry Correcting Bolt-In Relocation Bracket paired with 130lb/in lightweight leaf springs to improve handling performance and balance. The 1 in. lowering design reduces the vehicle's center of gravity and improves overall appearance. The system includes CNC Bet Relocation Brackets Grade-8 Hardware Polyurethane and Rubber Bushings and a pair of track-tested leaf springs. Bolt a set on today and feel the performance gain. Features: CNC Bent Geometry Correcting Bolt-In Relocation Brackets Reduce Roll Steer. 130 lb /in. springs. Improve Handling Response and Balance. Lightweight 3 Leaf Design Reduces Spring Un-sprung Weight by when compared to competitions springs. Lowers Vehicle approximately 1 in. Includes a proven track-tested combination of High Durometer Polyurethane and Rubber Bushings. Painted Gloss Black Finish Benefits: Improves vehicle handling and traction. Reduces Roll Steer for improved corner balance and feel Lowers Vehicle approximately 1 in.
$598.50
SK

Yup. At least 15 years ago. Bought the whole TVS kit and the springs were included.

 

[Super-Cuda]

Yup. At least 15 years ago. Bought the whole TVS kit and the springs were included.

I gotta ask...

How would you describe these springs??

 

[TT5.9mag]

I gotta ask...

How would you describe these springs??

They’re just an aftermarket 1” lowering spring for a 111” WB dart with the spring rate that hotchkis chose. No different than espo or MP SS or Eaton or any other spring that’s not an original.

 

[DionR]

Am I wrong in thinking that track they tested the Taxi on was one that significant HP differences wouldn't make that much time difference? Sounds like they had a 55-60 mph corner that went right into a bracing zone and that might have been the fastest part of the track. Lower speed, tight course with slaloms and 90 degree corners, less than 30 seconds a lap (lap times give were for 2 laps). Not that HP wouldn't make some difference, just doesn't seem like it would make a second of difference.

 

[junkyardhero]

I gotta ask...

How would you describe these springs??

i've lost count of how many i've installed in client cars, and i've had them in two cars that i sold and a set in my current dart.

great spring for the money.

 

[HPP]

I believe that tires only care about the force being applied to them. They do not differentiate between what applies that force. For a long time, the only ways to apply that force was through coil, leaf, or torsion springs. Each spring has a set of inherited physical characteristics that can make them better or lesser suited for a particular application. These characteristics also create specific types of packaging to apply that force, which can results in geometric plusses or minuses. However, none of these characteristics change the actual force they apply. So we are left with packaging to create improved pathways for application of force. It would take some significant alterations to these pathways to produce significant improved efficiency of a system. Most changes are going to create relatively minor changes that may be difficult to differentiate even with a stop watch.

There are very few classic car street drivers that are high enough on the skills scales to really differentiate the impacts of packaging on a suspension system. Most of us are simply happy that after a change, the car does not exhibit as much body roll going around the long left had sweeping corner on the way in to work. And that is fine.

If there is no significant advantage provided by the packaging set up of a spring system, then the next differentiators may be cost, weight, ease of change or any of a number of other factors. 4" coil springs are so prolific these days, that they are dirt cheap. However, the point of entry to use them in this application is fairly high, so unless you are competing on multiple tracks that require differing rates on each occasion, I don't see using them as a big advantage. They also are small, lightweight, and easy to carry. This is a big advantage over torsion bars or leaf springs. But again, unless you are a travelling racer that needs to dial things in to a very high level of precision, no advantage here. One area the coils have a huge advantage in is available rates. You can get coil spring in a variety of heights and rates can be found in 50# increments from 200-1000#. Classic Mopar compatible torsion bars are simply not available in the range of rates to allow a comparatively precise rate adjustment. You can probably get close to what you need with what's available, but in a long running endurance race, being off a 100# in rate means you could eat up a bunch of tires. Leaf springs can get their rates dialed in reasonably well, but doing so is a significant assembly effort to change the leaves to impact the rates, or you are hauling around a lot of extra sets/weight in your tow rig to be able to just swap out entire leaf sets. But then again, I don't see many(any?) classic mopars racing in a travelling series where rapidly altering the suspension is a requirement that would mandate such rapid and easy spring changes.

Do any of us need a coil over system? Not any more than a bracket racer needs a blower or a turbo. It all comes down to personal desire. If you desire to install a coil over suspension system on your turbo charged Duster with a digital dash and a 6 speed transmission, have at it. IF you want a new set up because you feel it is more modern, do it. The problem with chasing modern is that modern keeps changing and the bar keeps rising and eventually now becomes then and what was once new is now old. Where or when do you stop chasing modern?

 

[273]

Great content

 

[MopaR&D]

I gotta ask...

How would you describe these springs??

I've had them in my Duster for about 7 years, I like them but I feel like they could be a tad stiffer. I have an adjustable rear sway bar and on the stiffest setting the car still feels more prone to understeer, however the suspension overall is far from optimized (needs good shocks) and my front tires are pretty old, a few years older than the rears and those are getting up there in age too.

They feel a bit stiffer than stock springs but nothing like SS leaves.

 

[Super-Cuda]

I think you are reading way too much into who built it. When the parts are a bolt on, it doesn't take an expert to bolt them on. Not saying someone can't screw it up, but it's not like the '76 Dart Lite they built where it was almost all custom fabrication. The only potential weld on parts are the subframe connectors and even that doesn't warrant the label of "expert built".

I understand that you didn't get the same results with your TB build before swapping to a RMS kit, but it's not because they are experts. It's because you didn't go far enough, (e.g. 383 torsion bars and a 340 Formula S swaybar aren't anywhere near big enough).

But isn't this the same team that built the "taxi" ?

From my understanding, these guys are Nascar pros , and I even heard Arrington mentioned as part of this conglomeration .

If this is the case, that car was "assembled " with some real racing experience behind them .

They are experts.


1976 Dodge Dart Lite

 

[NC Engine Builder]

But isn't this the same team that built the "taxi" ?

From my understanding, these guys are Nascar pros , and I even heard Arrington mentioned as part of this conglomeration .

If this is the case, that car was "assembled " with some real racing experience behind them .

They are experts.


1976 Dodge Dart Lite

I'm not really getting your point. That dart is for sure a well executed build, but so what? Its using torsion bars and leaf springs, just like Chrysler designed it. Its OPTIMISED for sure. Some of these guys running coilover conversions have cars built to the same level of craftmanship as that car.

 

[fishmens67]

But isn't this the same team that built the "taxi" ?

From my understanding, these guys are Nascar pros , and I even heard Arrington mentioned as part of this conglomeration .

If this is the case, that car was "assembled " with some real racing experience behind them .

They are experts.


1976 Dodge Dart Lite

The cage in that dart is a key starting point, even tied in the front section.

 

[DionR]

But isn't this the same team that built the "taxi" ?

From my understanding, these guys are Nascar pros , and I even heard Arrington mentioned as part of this conglomeration .

If this is the case, that car was "assembled " with some real racing experience behind them .

They are experts.


1976 Dodge Dart Lite

So what? The Taxi doesn't have any fabrication like that one does, it's not the same style of build. Hotchkis probably built the car because they have a shop that builds cars and sell the parts, not because they are experts.

There is another member on here that had his Dart worked on by Hotchkis and it didn't go nearly as well. Can't think of his name. Either way, I think you are giving Hotchkis more credit than they deserve on the Taxi.

If they had relocated the UCA mounts, or welded in a roll cage like the Dart, or went through and squared the chassis and welded the seams, maybe I would agree with you. But they installed bolt on parts that anyone could bolt on. They did less work to bolt on those parts than people that do a COC have to do.

I am beginning to wonder if you want the Satellite to be an over the top build just so you can feel better about something.

 

[Super-Cuda]

So what? The Taxi doesn't have any fabrication like that one does, it's not the same style of build. Hotchkis probably built the car because they have a shop that builds cars and sell the parts, not because they are experts.

There is another member on here that had his Dart worked on by Hotchkis and it didn't go nearly as well. Can't think of his name. Either way, I think you are giving Hotchkis more credit than they deserve on the Taxi.

If they had relocated the UCA mounts, or welded in a roll cage like the Dart, or went through and squared the chassis and welded the seams, maybe I would agree with you. But they installed bolt on parts that anyone could bolt on. They did less work to bolt on those parts than people that do a COC have to do.

I am beginning to wonder if you want the Satellite to be an over the top build just so you can feel better about something.

No, I just look at how incredible the performance of that car is.

My opinion is that not many people could put together a 3300-3800 lb 4 door sedan that performs like that Satellite does. It takes some real expertise and chassis knowledge to outperform the cars it competes against.

In fact, the knowledge and expertise shown by a few of the members on here to upgrade the suspensions of their cars is also amazing.

I am extremely inquisitive about how these cars are built but... no hidden agenda at all.

 

[Super-Cuda]

I'm not really getting your point. That dart is for sure a well executed build, but so what? Its using torsion bars and leaf springs, just like Chrysler designed it. Its OPTIMISED for sure. Some of these guys running coilover conversions have cars built to the same level of craftmanship as that car.

Ok, here's what I'm getting at.

I think the "taxi" is much more than a "slapped together' build that anyone could do and get the same level of performance that Hoschkis got out of that Satellite.

The guys on here who constantly change and modify stock Mopar suspensions are certainly included in the group of experts I'm referring to , the OP, Denny, 72' , to name a few that can pull off this kind of performance.

This is not an "average joe' build by any means.

By any chance is there any video/information/pics of the build of the "Taxi" ?

That would be great to see.

 

[NC Engine Builder]

Ok, here's what I'm getting at.

I think the "taxi" is much more than a "slapped together' build that anyone could do and get the same level of performance that Hoschkis got out of that Satellite.

The guys on here who constantly change and modify stock Mopar suspensions are certainly included in the group of experts I'm referring to , the OP, Denny, 72' , to name a few that can pull off this kind of performance.

This is not an "average joe' build by any means.

By any chance is there any video/information/pics of the build of the "Taxi" ?

That would be great to see.

I really believe from what I remember, the taxi is pretty much a bolt together deal from std hotchkiss parts. I dont recall ANY trick fabrication. I could be wrong