Drilling Holes In Carb Throttle Plate Blades

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340inabbody

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Can someone here help me understand IF and HOW drilling carburetor throttle blades for an aggressive cam idle/T slot adjustment/optimization might also or not help in gear and out (park/neutral) idle balance on an automatic?

Background :
I have been having some issues of poor idle in gear and have been trying to tune (timing and carburetor) for a decent idle. I had initial success but now it no longer is working and the imbalance seems to have worsened. I now need like 1300 rpm out of gear to get 900 in gear. I have used two different carbs and getting ready to modify my 650 1450 throttle blades. My 750 doesn’t need the modification to maintain the correct idle T slot position. Bot both have poor in gear idle.
I have a wide band O2 so I can also see my a/f mix.
 
Can someone here help me understand IF and HOW drilling carburetor throttle blades for an aggressive cam idle/T slot adjustment/optimization might also or not help in gear and out (park/neutral) idle balance on an automatic?

Background :
I have been having some issues of poor idle in gear and have been trying to tune (timing and carburetor) for a decent idle. I had initial success but now it no longer is working and the imbalance seems to have worsened. I now need like 1300 rpm out of gear to get 900 in gear. I have used two different carbs and getting ready to modify my 650 1450 throttle blades. My 750 doesn’t need the modification to maintain the correct idle T slot position. Bot both have poor in gear idle.
I have a wide band O2 so I can also see my a/f mix.
Before you drill the throttle blades (!) grasp the concept of "idle bypass air." The function of your T slot is to enrichen the mixture when the throttle is opened "under load especially." Your carburetor, Holley, Carter, Rochester is calibrated from the factory to work with atmospheric pressure and engine vacuum. Once you start cranking the throttle blades open to compensate for, say 14 hg at idle you have exposed the T slot and now your Idle air bleed is out of calibration because your engine is feeding of of the idle feed and transfer circuit (rich). Take a manifold port vacuum access point and remove your power brake line. Now put a piece of tape over the nipple and poke a 1/16 hole in it and tune your idle.

Go back to your tailpipes and listen and get a whiff. Poke a 3/32 hole in the tape and readjust the idle. Repeat the tail pipe scenario and it sounds smoother and stinks less. Repeat one more time with 1/8" hole and see if you can tune it down one more time. If so you are in the ballpark for idle bypass air calibration and you know you'll need two 1/16 holes (one in each blade) to calibrate the idle bypass, but there is a hitch! Its better to introduce idle bypass air from a non venturi source, hence idle bypass.

If your still confused call: https://cliffshighperformance.com/ and you will learn more than you wanted too. Be patient, and good luck with your tuning!
 
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Before you drill the throttle blades (!) grasp the concept of "idle bypass air." The function of your T slot is to enrichen the mixture when the throttle is opened "under load especially." Your carbonator, Holley, Carter, Rochester is calibrated from the factory to work with atmospheric pressure and engine vacuum. Once you start cranking the throttle blades open to compensate for, say 14 hg at idle you have exposed the T slot and now your Idle air bleed is out of calibration because your engine is feeding of of the idle feed and transfer circuit (rich). Take a manifold port vacuum access point and remove your power brake line. Now put a piece of tape over the nipple and poke a 1/16 hole in it and tune your idle.

Go back to your tailpipes and listen and get a whiff. Poke a 3/32 hole in the tape and readjust the idle. Repeat the tail pipe scenario and it sounds smoother and stinks less. Repeat one more time with 1/8" hole and see if you can tune it down one more time. If so you are in the ballpark for idle bypass air calibration and you know you'll need two 1/16 holes (one in each blade) to calibrate the idle bypass, but there is a hitch! Its better to introduce idle bypass air from a non venturi source, hence idle bypass.

If your still confused call: https://cliffshighperformance.com/ and you will learn more than you wanted too. Be patient, and good luck with your tuning!
Thanks sounds like a systematic way to move forward. Two questions. What do you mean by “idle bypass” specifically non-Venturi type?
Also will this affect the in/out of gear imbalance I was referring to in my op?
 
What happens is you have enough cam timing (evidently) so you have to open the throttle blades up to get an acceptable idle.

When you do that you uncover too much of the T slot and it will pull fuel from the T slots at idle and it gets nasty rich.

You also have little to no adjustment on the idle mixture screws.

The holes in the throttle blades are a controlled (depending on the size of the holes) air leak.

That air leak allows you to close the throttle blades and still get a reasonable idle speed, except when the holes are the right size you will have most of the T slots covered.

That’s it in a nutshell.

How do you know if you need them?

First you need to answer post 6.

If your timing is where it should be, and you have little or no adjustment on the idle mixture screws AND your carb doesn’t have an adjustable idle bleed built in then you need some holes.

Also, if the idle is where you want it but it’s too rich then take the carb off and flip it over and look at how much T slot is exposed.

If you are somewhere between the T slot making a square with the throttle blade and no mouth than about .080 exposed you may just need to change the idle air bleed to clean it up.

If it’s more than that you need to get more idle air to allow you to close the throttle blades and get off the T slot at idle.
 
Can someone here help me understand IF and HOW drilling carburetor throttle blades for an aggressive cam idle/T slot adjustment/optimization might also or not help in gear and out (park/neutral) idle balance on an automatic?

Background :
I have been having some issues of poor idle in gear and have been trying to tune (timing and carburetor) for a decent idle. I had initial success but now it no longer is working and the imbalance seems to have worsened. I now need like 1300 rpm out of gear to get 900 in gear. I have used two different carbs and getting ready to modify my 650 1450 throttle blades. My 750 doesn’t need the modification to maintain the correct idle T slot position. Bot both have poor in gear idle.
I have a wide band O2 so I can also see my a/f mix.
Just to throw out a far out idea, I had this issue on 2 cars. It ended up being the torque converters. More stall didnt drag it down when in gear.
 
Thanks sounds like a systematic way to move forward. Two questions. What do you mean by “idle bypass” specifically non-Venturi type?
Also will this affect the in/out of gear imbalance I was referring to in my op?
Quadrajets have an Idle bypass channel that goes around the venturi that increases the sensitivity of the idle circuit when the factory application requires it. Altitude market (Denver) and or excessive overlap) Say below 16hg. If your not versed in tuning air bleeds, or your carb docent have adjustable air bleeds you can screw up a fixed air bleed carb fairly quick by "modifying the air bleed blindly." idle bypass is the simplest way to see if your having an issue with the over exposure of a transfer slot that is reversible. For instance, say you find that the 1/8" idle bypass cleans up you mildly cam'd engine idle and transition. You can run an 1/8" vacuum line to a nipple you install in the base of you air filter.

But as stated in post #7 there is more going on than just idle bypass. The Idle channel restrictor "air bleed" comes into play once you have the idle bypass in calibration.
GM had .100" + idle bypass on some circuits from the factory! Holley's and Carter universal application carburetors are not calibrated for any increase in altitude and low hg, say below 15 without air bleed modification.

Sure they will run and blaze the tires, but you'd be aghast with an AFR gauge!

If your above 3500' elevation the sensitivity is not their exponentially with an increase in elevation due to the change of atmospheric pressure.
 
The purpose of the Idle-Air Bypass, is so that you can restore functionality of the low-speed circuit, which is the SUM OF Transfer-slot fuel and mixture screw fuel.
Any time you add more air than the engine needs at idle, if the engine simultaneously gets more fuel, the idle-rpm HAS to go up.
The biggest problem I see,
time and time again, is guys running more idle-timing than is necessary. EVERY time you add Idle Timing, up to around as much as 30 degrees, the Idling engine will pick up idle-rpm. I repeat; EVERY TIME. this is because, the engine is picking up Idle-power, as you get closer to developing peak cylinder pressure at the optimum point in the cranks decent on the power-stroke.
That's fine if you need the power, and/or you have a hi-stall convertor. But if you have a street-car, you neither need nor want that. Most of the time, it's just big pita.
Therefore,
in a street car, with an automatic, you only need to run just enough Idle-power, so it doesn't stall when you put it into gear.
So then
The order of operations is to set the T-slot to mixture screw synchronization, with the Curb-idle screw; and then, set the idle-speed with Ignition timing. That's all.
If the engine wants more air,
it will tell you, by having a burn-your-eyes exhaust stink, and NO MIXTURE SCREW setting will make it go away. Also, it is possible at very low engine vacuum, for your PCV to switch from being a simple fixed-orifice , to some larger proportional air leak cuz the low vacuum signals it to respond with a larger opening.
Also, It will tell you by idling rough and it cannot be smoothed with mixture screw adjustment.
The biggest cam I have tuned, in a 360, was the DC 292/292/108, 248@050. That said, the smallest was a 270/276/110, 223/230@050 ..
The biggest in a BB was a little bigger.
I've never seen a cammed-up engine NOT respond positively to Idle-Air bypass. The amount will vary, depending on the combo, the idle-timing, and the idle-speed. I can tell you that one hole in each primary, of .125, is too much for the 292 cam.
I can also tell you that, the 223 cam doesn't actually want any bypass air, until you run too much Idle-timing. and
I can tell you that, properly tuned, either cam will idle just fine down to 550 rpm in Neutral, if you get the T-slot sync set right, and the Idle-Timing rolled off....... unless yur rings are seriously dragging, or your valves are not getting enough seat time.
The point is this;
Automatic guys with hi-stalls can get away with the worst tunes imaginable, cuz it all gets lost in the convertor.
So, what do you do?
Well,
with a street engine running a streetable cam;
I suggest you begin your IDLE-tune by setting your Idle-timing in the window of 12 to 14 degrees. Set your T-slot sync, which I'm assuming that you already know how to do. And then go find your real problem.
Which could be anything here listed;
Incorrect WET fuel level,
Percolating fuel,
Incorrectly working PCV system,
Air getting into the engine from an unauthorized source, NOT past the throttle-blades.
Fuel getting into the engine from an unauthorized source, NOT from the low-speed system.
High friction on the crank, stealing Idle-power.
Too tight a Valve lash, stealing Idle-Power
Engine coolant temp not under control; you cannot tune an engine in the which the coolant system is running amok.
And all the usual stuff nobody remembers like;
Fouled plugs, bad wires, a weak coil, a heated intake, a restricted exhaust, leaking header flanges, changes in elevation, float-bowl venting, fuel-tank venting, etcetera,
Here's a clue;
You will know when your T-slot sync is not adequate, by the engine having a tip-in sag, at gentle driveaway, assuming a decently low idle-rpm. A tip-in sag is caused by a momentary failure of the T-slot to respond, which usually means one of three things; the throttle is too far closed, or the fuel level in the Idle-well is too low, or the fuel has a problem; which could be that it's stale or it has not been properly emulsified in the idle-well. Not enough Idle-timing is seldom a contributor.
In other words, you can use the Tip-in sag for tuning purposes. You can use it to find the lowest limit of your throttle-opening. Which will help determine your Idle-power, so that you don't get that huge discrepancy between Idle-speed in Neutral verses idle speed in Drive, and the huge BANG!, that it usually makes upon engagement.

Lets back up the bus a sec.
Very few guys will install a 292 cam, cuz that cam does not have very good street manners. and, if a guy is gunna spend money on a cam, you can bet money, it'll be bigger than a 262. What that means is that, for a streeter, yur looking at a range of about 30 degrees. One cam size is generally agreed to be about 7 degrees, so, 30Degrees is 5 sizes, namely, 262/268/276/284/and 292.
My 292 cam liked two bypass holes total, each one being 7/64ths
My 270 was happy with 2/64ths to none. Therefore, I'll guess that each cam size smaller than the 292, will want at least 1/64th less.
Since you do not know what cam is in your engine, this makes it a lil tough.

Many years ago, when I did my first tune, I Tee'd into the PCV system, and drilled holes in my Plastic Tee, until the engine liked it. Just remember to get your idle-rpm down first. I've never had a street engine, that wanted more than 800rpm, and more often than not, they will idle down to 600/650 in gear. Keep your eye on the oil-pressure, When it gets down to under 10psi, I start to worry.

When you get this worked out;
now you have another job, which is hitting three or four other Timing targets, namely;
1) Power-Timing
2) Stall-Timing
3) Part-Throttle Timing, and
4) Cruise timing.

Are we having fun yet?
Happy HotRodding.


You asked;
"Can someone here help me understand IF and HOW drilling carburetor throttle blades for an aggressive cam idle/T slot adjustment/optimization might also or not help in gear and out (park/neutral) idle balance on an automatic?"

The holes only make a difference at idle, with the throttles nearly closed. I put mine on the front no closer than .25 to the edge, and I spot them between the T-slots and the Idle-discharge ports.
When the throttles are vertical, obviously, those holes do nothing. In between, as the throttles are opened, they contribute less and less. Around town, I've never even thought about them.
If you drill, drill small and work with them for awhile.
If you drill too big, yes you can solder them shut, move over, and try again.
How do you know when the holes are too big?
The engine will not idle down with a correct T-slot sync, no matter how far you retard the timing. Well I mean within reason. I set mine to run down to 500/550 rpm at 5* advance, so that with a manual trans, I can parade it at 4mph. IF I had too much Idle bypass air, this would not be possible.
 
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You don't mess with air bleeds!!!!!!!!!!!!!! The carb has TWO ccts: idle & main cct. The idle air bleed is calibrated to 'finish' where the main air bleed starts fuel flowing for the main cct. You adjust by changing fuel, not air.
The PCV
You had 'initial success'. Does that mean it DID idle ok, now it doesn't?? That could be adjustment of ign timing/carb or wiped cam lobes. The PCV will not work with low vac cams. If you can feel it vibrating at idle, in gear, it is not working. Need more info. Ign timing has a BIG impact on idle quality. You get the idle timing correct first, before touching the carb. Below are some examples of what the correct idle timing can do....

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Sorry, a lot of NONSENSE in post #11. If the engine has a sizable cam, & it sounds like it does, it will want a LOOOOOT more than 12-14* of initial timing. Also nonsense to claim that a lot of idle timing causes a bang [ rpm drop ] going from N into gear. Just the opposite will occur: there will be less rpm drop & shift will be smoother.

Reason is quite simple: when you increase idle timing, idle rpm increases. The increase is because the engine is making more hp. When placed in gear, the tq c'ter loads the engine & rpm drops. With the engine making more hp from the extra timing, it is better able to carry the load & the rpm drop is less. GM engines used manifold vac adv, which added timing at idle. My GTO left the showroom idling with 26*. It now has 48* at idle with the big cam, has a smooth idle & enough vac for p/brakes.

More info here, post #6.

www.hotrodders.com/forum/vacuum-advance-hooked-up-directly-manifold-bad-47495.html
 
You don't mess with air bleeds!!!!!!!!!!!!!! The carb has TWO ccts: idle & main cct. The idle air bleed is calibrated to 'finish' where the main air bleed starts fuel flowing for the main cct. You adjust by changing fuel, not air.
The PCV
You had 'initial success'. Does that mean it DID idle ok, now it doesn't?? That could be adjustment of ign timing/carb or wiped cam lobes. The PCV will not work with low vac cams. If you can feel it vibrating at idle, in gear, it is not working. Need more info. Ign timing has a BIG impact on idle quality. You get the idle timing correct first, before touching the carb. Below are some examples of what the correct idle timing can do....

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Thats assuming the idle air bleed is correctly sized in the first place. Most are not. And it’s a quick way to determine if the engine is getting the correct a/f mixture from the idle mixture screws.
 
Guys thank you for all this information. It’s going to take some time to carefully read and understand all this and comment and reply.

I did have the T slots set correctly with the idle screw AND I used the secondary to provide some additional idle speed. But using the secondary is very sensitive. I also installed a wbO2 sensor.

Unless I missed something, I didn’t see any direct reply to my question regarding if tuning the carb by drilling the butterfly’s could improve the idle disparity from in gear and out of gear. Can you guys comment on this please?
 
Guys thank you for all this information. It’s going to take some time to carefully read and understand all this and comment and reply.

I did have the T slots set correctly with the idle screw AND I used the secondary to provide some additional idle speed. But using the secondary is very sensitive. I also installed a wbO2 sensor.

Unless I missed something, I didn’t see any direct reply to my question regarding if tuning the carb by drilling the butterfly’s could improve the idle disparity from in gear and out of gear. Can you guys comment on this please?


Most likely not.

What is your idle timing? Start with that.

BTW, how far does the engine drop from P to D?
 
Most likely not.

What is your idle timing? Start with that.

BTW, how far does the engine drop from P to D?
It drops 600 rpm now. Something changed. I had it to 200 rpm differential. Now at 1200 rpm in park/N then in gear about 700 and it shakes and runs very rough and I hear possibly detonation. It’s real bad. Vacuum drops from 11 Hg to 7Hg.
 
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Guys thank you for all this information. It’s going to take some time to carefully read and understand all this and comment and reply.

I did have the T slots set correctly with the idle screw AND I used the secondary to provide some additional idle speed. But using the secondary is very sensitive. I also installed a wbO2 sensor.

Unless I missed something, I didn’t see any direct reply to my question regarding if tuning the carb by drilling the butterfly’s could improve the idle disparity from in gear and out of gear. Can you guys comment on this please?
This doesn't exactly fit your situation, but:
I've done it on a high compression cammed MG, manual trans, with a huge weber that wouldn't idle unless you opened the throttle plates too much with the idle speed screw and engaged the main circuit. People do it all the time but it's wrong.

Drilling butterflies worked and is a legitimate fix on a Weber, allowing you to close the throttle blades and engaging the idle circuit, but a better fix would have been to fit a smaller carburetor with less pump shot. And probably 5 other things.

In your situation I'm guessing it'll make the engine idle higher. You could just create an air bleed and see if it helps, like disconnecting an unused vacuum port, and if you like it then consider drilling. It might create other problems that you can't tune away.
 
'Something' changed. You need to find out what 'something' is because ' something' must but be big to cause a 500 rpm drop going into gear? Bad c'ter?
 
You don't mess with air bleeds!!!!!!!!!!!!!! The carb has TWO ccts: idle & main cct. The idle air bleed is calibrated to 'finish' where the main air bleed starts fuel flowing for the main cct. You adjust by changing fuel, not air.
The PCV
You had 'initial success'. Does that mean it DID idle ok, now it doesn't?? That could be adjustment of ign timing/carb or wiped cam lobes. The PCV will not work with low vac cams. If you can feel it vibrating at idle, in gear, it is not working. Need more info. Ign timing has a BIG impact on idle quality. You get the idle timing correct first, before touching the carb. Below are some examples of what the correct idle timing can do....

View attachment 1716475611

View attachment 1716475612

View attachment 1716475613

View attachment 1716475614

View attachment 1716475615

View attachment 1716475616

View attachment 1716475618

Guys thank you for all this information. It’s going to take some time to carefully read and understand all this and comment and reply.

I did have the T slots set correctly with the idle screw AND I used the secondary to provide some additional idle speed. But using the secondary is very sensitive. I also installed a wbO2 sensor.

Unless I missed something, I didn’t see any direct reply to my question regarding if tuning the carb by drilling the butterfly’s could improve the idle disparity from in gear and out of gear. Can you guys comment on this please?
Drilling the butterflies is just one method of adding idle bypass air. How is your afr on the wideband at idle?
 

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