EFI to replace Edelbrock carb

[rmchrgr]

That's where people get me wrong with it. I spent YEARS on the line as an alignment tech. Why is that important? Because in dealerships, the alignment tech gets all the stuff no one wants or can figure out. Which means I got a ton of driveability. I learned a lot. I know way more about EFI than I let on. I know enoufh to know I don't like it and that's enough for me. Intimidated? Hardly. I detest it. Computer and cars should have never happened.

If you or anyone else is still befuddled/angered by computers and software in 2025 it must be difficult to navigate life in general let alone retrofit EFI systems. "Detesting" anything is purely emotional. You have a right to feel however you want about it but it's not relevant to whether it works or not.

That said, alignments obviously have zero to do with fuel injection or any type of ECU managed systems (well maybe some BCMs) so the correlation about solving "drivability" issues is a bit thin. Being able to troubleshoot stuff others don't know enough about is a good general skill but I'm not sure it necessarily applies directly to jobs that require a fairly specific skill like sound wiring. Did doing aligments somehow give you insight into building transmissions or how to do body work and paint?

These retrofit systems are only as good as the people that install them. If someone skimps out on certain parts, ignores instructions or thinks good wiring is twisting two wires together and covering it with a roll of electrical tape then they probably shouldn't be messing with this type of thing to begin with.

Garbage in, garbage out as they say.

 

[DionR]

Computer and cars should have never happened.

I agree there are limits, but I disagree that there is no place for them. Try running a 1000hp motor on a carb and letting someone's mom or wife take it to the store.

"No, you have to feather the throttle until it get's warm. No, don't whack it open like that, just enough to keep running. You aren't timing the throttle right, start it again and try and match the drop in RPM. Now it is flooded, let me pull the air cleaner and get it cleaned out. Ok, now remember to put it in neutral at stop lights so it doesn't load up. When it starts surging, throw it in neutral and wing the throttle a couple of times but be careful that you let the RPM's drop before you put it back in gear so you don't accidentally do a burn out. Have fun, it a great car to get groceries in".

Cars like the Hellcat, let alone a Demon 170, would be a hard sell for the OEM's without EFI. Not saying they don't build 700hp big block crate motors with carbs, just that the market it too small for an OEM to make sense without the drivability that EFI can provide. And try driving that motor from Denver to San Diego.

Not saying every car needs a computer, nor that everyone should convert. Only that there is a place for them and that without EFI (I don't believe) we would have some of the top flight stuff we have on the roads now.

 

[360notch]

My brother and I used a returnless system on his 6.4 swapped Demon with a Corvette filter. We even went to GM for the filter as I had heard of problems with the aftermarket ones.

His motor has a cam and aftermarket intake and MMX suggested a big in tank pump. When we energized the system the pressure gauge showed like 100psi and would hold that pressure for days. He called someone (can’t remember who) and they said those Corvette filters won’t work with a big pump as they just can’t handle the flow, so we added a filter and regulator but kept the returnless system.

We used a returnless system as that’s what the stock PCM expects. I think the factories use that system because it is cheaper as it saves a fuel line run. And I think even high HP cars like the Demon 170 was still a returnless system, and if so I would say it can be made to work. I’m not saying the stock PCM couldn’t work with a return system, but why spend money on more fuel line if it works?

My build will have a returnless system as well, but using a Gen5 Camaro pump in the tank. Simple to plump and good enough for me.

To be clear, not arguing that a return style system isn’t better, only that it isn’t absolutely necessary.

Thank you for the info, and for taking the extra time to write it so clearly!

 

[rmchrgr]

Some of the blame on the negativity of these systems can placed on the advertising. Guys really seem to believe that it will be a magic bullet. I've seen it with my neighbor, he just bought the plug-and-play idea hook, line and sinker. Couldn't be further from the truth.

The companies that produce these systems wouldn't sell half of what they do if people that buy them knew what it took for a successful install.

 

[MadScientistMat]

Personally, PWM fuel pump control makes a lot of sense, big pump or not. Why have the pump thumping away at full speed all the time and bypassing a bunch of fuel that isn't needed? And with PWM there is no need for a regulator at all, just a sensor. Not that it is cheaper, the controller kits are fairly expensive.

Main problem is that some pumps are difficult to control precisely enough to regulate pressure, especially large gerotor type pumps running at low speed. Bypass regulators also are easier to avoid vapor lock since continuously circulating in more fuel tends to push vapor out.

 

[MadScientistMat]

Some of the blame on the negativity of these systems can placed on the advertising. Guys really seem to believe that it will be a magic bullet. I've seen it with my neighbor, he just bought the plug-and-play idea hook, line and sinker. Couldn't be further from the truth.

The companies that produce these systems wouldn't sell half of what they do if people that buy them knew what it took for a successful install.

Very true.Also:
Self tuning EFI is not self troubleshooting.
Nobody has figured out self tuning spark timing.

 

[DionR]

Main problem is that some pumps are difficult to control precisely enough to regulate pressure, especially large gerotor type pumps running at low speed.

I wonder if that is why the Redeye and Demon went to a dual pump. Easier to control two smaller pumps rather than one large one?

 

[tonysrt]

DionR don't compare Factory installed EFI to aftermarket EFI. The cars coming with it installed from the factory have it down pat. I have an 05 Ram, don't use the truck for 2 weeks, turn the key and take right off, regardless of the weather. Has never failed me in my 20 years and over 100,000 miles.
2 different aftermarket EFI's have failed me. ECU got hot and failed, cooled off ok till got hot again.

 

[rmchrgr]

Since there seems to be a lot of these these questions popping up in recent years I am considering writing up a detailed primer on EFI conversions. It wouldn't be technical as much as it would be about helping someone decide if it's the right move or not. A lot of people don't see the entire picture beyond just buying a kit. I've installed a couple of these systems and know may around them pretty well. Hopefully it can be made into a sticky for people to refer to before they ask a general "should I or shouldn't I" question.

At this point a dedicated EFI forum would be a useful addition. We have a 3D printing and model building forums so why not an EFI forum? Maybe my treatise could be the first post.

Whadya think mods?

 

[RustyRatRod]

Some of the blame on the negativity of these systems can placed on the advertising. Guys really seem to believe that it will be a magic bullet. I've seen it with my neighbor, he just bought the plug-and-play idea hook, line and sinker. Couldn't be further from the truth.

The companies that produce these systems wouldn't sell half of what they do if people that buy them knew what it took for a successful install.

I agree. That's a BIG part of everything is the bullcrap marketing. Companies will say anything for a sale.

 

[Hellrats]

It's still so much easier to figure out a carb or ignition problem. There are so few parts. Why would you ever do that to an old school car? Kind of like added fuel injection to my old lawn tractor. Sure I could make it work, but why?

 

[YY1]

Oops. Posted this in the wrong thread-

The most common things with electronic is-

A- ballast resistor, which you can temporarily jump to get going
and
B- "brain". Carry a spare. Usually the "goo" starts leaking out before they go bad, giving a warning window.

 

[MadScientistMat]

It's still so much easier to figure out a carb or ignition problem. There are so few parts. Why would you ever do that to an old school car? Kind of like added fuel injection to my old lawn tractor. Sure I could make it work, but why?

What, you don't want to see how quickly you could mow your lawn if your tractor had a turbo, 2 step rev limiter, and traction control?

 

[Hellrats]

^^^^ No I saw that on Home Improvement! LOL ^^^^^

 

[RustyRatRod]

^^^^ No I saw that on Home Improvement! LOL ^^^^^

 

[rmchrgr]

Why would you ever do that to an old school car

Do you still run points?

 

[Backally]

It's still so much easier to figure out a carb or ignition problem. There are so few parts. Why would you ever do that to an old school car? Kind of like added fuel injection to my old lawn tractor. Sure I could make it work, but why?

Ease of making adjustments. With a few keyboard strokes I can change fuel or timing at 250rpm increments from idle to wot. Same with making changes to “choke” or “pump shot”. And a lot of other fine tuning. And can do it in seconds. I don’t know a tenth of what the guys on here about tuning, but I got my 408 with a Sniper pretty close. No starting and blipping the throttle for 2-3 minutes to keep it running like I see a lot of guys having to do. I know when it comes out of storage in March or April it will fire right up and by the time it shows oil pressure it will run like I drove it the day before.

 

[rmchrgr]

BTW, what happened to the O.P.? Did his head explode? Would like to hear what he has to say after 3 pages of opinions .

 

[DionR]

It's still so much easier to figure out a carb or ignition problem. There are so few parts. Why would you ever do that to an old school car? Kind of like added fuel injection to my old lawn tractor. Sure I could make it work, but why?

I wouldn't do it for all old school cars. But see post #52 for some of my reasons for some builds. Maybe new cars have spoiled me, but I sure like the drivability I see with the new stuff. Not going to build a 302 with a carb that makes 480HP and that anyone can drive, let alone a 378 that makes 700, 800 or 1000 horsepower.

But it depends on what you want out of the car. If you want to re-live your youth or feel like you did in '65 (or '85), makes sense to leave it alone. But if you want something you can drive across the USA, I would argue that in the end a good EFI would give better results, unless it kills your vibe. It really depends on what you want out of the car.

For me, I want to drive. I don't care about re-living memories like my carb freezing up or such, I just want to drive it. And to me, 450-500 hp in a car that cruises relatively quietly, get's reasonable mileage, doesn't fog the highway with gas/oil fumes due to blowby and is stone axe reliable sounds killer. Frankly, the easy button is a late model muscle car, but even an old school car can get many of the same benefits.

Sure there are plenty of stories of aftermarket EFI systems having problems, but it sure seems like the guys that do it right don't have those. And I can't remember the last time I saw a new Mustang/Camaro/Challenger on the side of the road without red and blue lights.

But it takes work to make it right, and if the return isn't worth the work then it doesn't make sense to do it.

Not saying you can't drive a car with a carb like I want, plenty do. And do it well. I can think of two guys on here, @abodyjoe and @72bluNblu, and they both drive their cars like I want to do mine. And I am sure there are plenty more. But I would bet that for every one that get's drive like that, there are 10+ that sit in a garage for extended periods because the late model mobility blob get's pressed into service most of the time just because it is easier.

 

[Hellrats]

I wouldn't do it for all old school cars. But see post #52 for some of my reasons for some builds. Maybe new cars have spoiled me, but I sure like the drivability I see with the new stuff. Not going to build a 302 with a carb that makes 480HP and that anyone can drive, let alone a 378 that makes 700, 800 or 1000 horsepower.

But it depends on what you want out of the car. If you want to re-live your youth or feel like you did in '65 (or '85), makes sense to leave it alone. But if you want something you can drive across the USA, I would argue that in the end a good EFI would give better results, unless it kills your vibe. It really depends on what you want out of the car.

For me, I want to drive. I don't care about re-living memories like my carb freezing up or such, I just want to drive it. And to me, 450-500 hp in a car that cruises relatively quietly, get's reasonable mileage, doesn't fog the highway with gas/oil fumes due to blowby and is stone axe reliable sounds killer. Frankly, the easy button is a late model muscle car, but even an old school car can get many of the same benefits.

Sure there are plenty of stories of aftermarket EFI systems having problems, but it sure seems like the guys that do it right don't have those. And I can't remember the last time I saw a new Mustang/Camaro/Challenger on the side of the road without red and blue lights.

But it takes work to make it right, and if the return isn't worth the work then it doesn't make sense to do it.

Not saying you can't drive a car with a carb like I want, plenty do. And do it well. I can think of two guys on here, @abodyjoe and @72bluNblu, and they both drive their cars like I want to do mine. And I am sure there are plenty more. But I would bet that for every one that get's drive like that, there are 10+ that sit in a garage for extended periods because the late model mobility blob get's pressed into service most of the time just because it is easier.

Yeah or I can get in my SRT8 Challenger and have the HP and comfort too. Look at the OP. Some how this whole post went south. He wants a good driver and "local mechanic said that the Edelbrock is terrible" ... Really? If he would chime in he can get it to my place and I'll fix it. This isn't that hard.

 

[rmchrgr]

If you want to re-live your youth or feel like you did in '65 (or '85), makes sense to leave it alone. But if you want something you can drive across the USA, I would argue that in the end a good EFI would give better results, unless it kills your vibe.

You're using logic to argue against an emotional response, you'll never win.

One of the oldest and most respected carburetor companies on the planet just happens to make incredibly sophisticated and easy-to-use EFI systems. Why? Because if they stuck to making carburetors only they'd probably be out of business. Things change, that's just the way it goes. You either stay stuck in the past or figure out how to make newer stuff work to your advantage and move forward.

There is technology that exists today to make our older cars are faster than they have ever been. We have Pro Mods running on the street and highway without having major problems which is basically made possible through software. 8 second cars are like 12 second cars were in the '80s. The fastest muscle cars of the '60s and '70s couldn't keep up with some modern 6 or even 4 cylinder cars.

Again, there's nothing wrong with a carburetor but don't dismiss EFI out of hand because you don't think computers belong in old cars. Computers are a fact of life and it's better/more fun/rewarding to harness the potential they have to offer over being resentful of them. On the last one I did, no one even knew it was injected unless I pointed it out. It's easy to make it all blend in and no one would be the wiser.

These kinds of debates must have happened to the earliest hot rodders. Guys had been coming up with ways to go fast on their own since the '20s and built up a cottage industry catering to a small group of dedicated people like themselves. But then in the '50s and '60s factories started producing really fast cars that anyone could buy. Those cars were also leaps and bounds more advanced than their T buckets and '32s in every way possible.The old school guys probably moaned and groaned about how easy it was to just go buy a 'factory hot rod' that required no thought or skill whatsoever.

Old guy stubbornness sucks.

 

[DionR]

Yeah or I can get in my SRT8 Challenger and have the HP and comfort too.

How much do you drive your old car compared to your Challenger? Not poking at you, just curious.

I had a '15 R/T 6M at one point. I had my '74 Duster at the same time, and while I still drove the Duster and messed with it, the majority of the time I drove the Challenger. Not that the Duster wasn't fun, but the Challenger did literally everything I wanted it to do better. Well ok, everything except sit on the grass at a car show, wasn't going to do that with it. My Dad and Brother are (or were, lost Dad 18 months ago) car show guys and I enjoyed going with them and the Duster was more fun for that.

Look at the OP. Some how this whole post went south. He wants a good driver and "local mechanic said that the Edelbrock is terrible" ... Really? If he would chime in he can get it to my place and I'll fix it. This isn't that hard.

Completely agree. Without the OP's input, it's hard to say for sure but I would bet he doesn't need EFI. He certainly doesn't need to replace his carb.

Not suggesting EFI is the fix for everything nor that everyone should go down that road. Only that there are some advantages depending on the use case and individual.

 

[DionR]

These kinds of debates must have happened to the earliest hot rodders.

Except that now we have the internet. Back then, it was the guys you knew and raced with/against, mostly in the local towns. Now you have thousands reading what you just wrote and every one of them has a different take and opinion on it. And then you add in the "keyboard warrior" mentality of some, or even worse the trolls just looking to cause problems, and the debates are bigger and more heated.

Note that I'm not calling out anyone in this thread as a keyboard warrior or troll. Just an overall comment on the state of society.

That said, we also have the benefits of thousands of people going before us and sharing ideas we might not have heard about without the internet.

Gotta take the bad with the good.

 

[DionR]

You're using logic to argue against an emotional response, you'll never win.

True, but it's also the emotional response that keeps people doing this stuff at all.

Unfortunately we live in a society that values emotion over logic, and that will only ever end in ruin.

 

[72bluNblu]

I wouldn't do it for all old school cars. But see post #52 for some of my reasons for some builds. Maybe new cars have spoiled me, but I sure like the drivability I see with the new stuff. Not going to build a 302 with a carb that makes 480HP and that anyone can drive, let alone a 378 that makes 700, 800 or 1000 horsepower.

But it depends on what you want out of the car. If you want to re-live your youth or feel like you did in '65 (or '85), makes sense to leave it alone. But if you want something you can drive across the USA, I would argue that in the end a good EFI would give better results, unless it kills your vibe. It really depends on what you want out of the car.

For me, I want to drive. I don't care about re-living memories like my carb freezing up or such, I just want to drive it. And to me, 450-500 hp in a car that cruises relatively quietly, get's reasonable mileage, doesn't fog the highway with gas/oil fumes due to blowby and is stone axe reliable sounds killer. Frankly, the easy button is a late model muscle car, but even an old school car can get many of the same benefits.

Sure there are plenty of stories of aftermarket EFI systems having problems, but it sure seems like the guys that do it right don't have those. And I can't remember the last time I saw a new Mustang/Camaro/Challenger on the side of the road without red and blue lights.

But it takes work to make it right, and if the return isn't worth the work then it doesn't make sense to do it.

Not saying you can't drive a car with a carb like I want, plenty do. And do it well. I can think of two guys on here, @abodyjoe and @72bluNblu, and they both drive their cars like I want to do mine. And I am sure there are plenty more. But I would bet that for every one that get's drive like that, there are 10+ that sit in a garage for extended periods because the late model mobility blob get's pressed into service most of the time just because it is easier.

Yeah, I keep telling myself I need to convert my Duster over to EFI but I still just haven't done it, I'm still running a Holley Ultra 750 double pumper.

Which is not without it's issues, I basically have a "summer tune" and a "winter tune" because of the changes to the gasoline formula (more ethanol) for the summer and winter, and then the temperature and elevation changes I deal with on my commute. If I was just tuned for around my house it would be fine, or if I was tuned for the valley it would be fine, but I have to do both and that's a 3,500 ft elevation change and a minimum of a 10° average temperature difference. And then in the summer it can see 105°+ in the valley, but in the winter I may be doing cold starts with the air temp in the 20°'s. With my O2 sensor and AFR gauge I can basically tell when they change the fuels over and I end up going up or down a size on my jets depending on which way it's going. And even that has some nuance, because the AFR range you want to be in changes with the ethanol content too! The temperature makes a big difference too though.

And with EFI I wouldn't have to deal with any of that, or the choke, or whatever. It would just do it.

The problem is that EFI is a big commitment to do correctly. You can't just bolt it on and plug it in. You have to make sure you install everything correctly, and by that I mean all the proper grounds, sensor locations, provide the appropriate voltages to everything, etc. And that's VERY different from tuning a carburetor, now you're into troubleshooting with a multimeter and a computer instead of just reading spark plugs and smelling the exhaust. Even just getting an AFR and O2 sensor set up just for carb tuning has its own pitfalls, you have to understand not just what the gauge is showing you, but how it GETS that number so you can understand that sometimes the reading means something beyond it's too rich or lean. But more than anything, reading about what people go through with EFI conversions and the issues they have it's very much dependent on voltages and grounds, so the wiring install is where many people go wrong.

And then the other part is just my comfort level, like I know how the carb works and troubleshooting it with the extra input from the AFR gauge is something I'm comfortable with. With an EFI system you get into stuff I don't like dealing with as much, electrical stuff, computer stuff, etc. Which is not to say it isn't better! Not at all. But I know that for me at least, I would have a lot to learn to properly troubleshoot any of the EFI systems I'd be installing. And aftermarket EFI is still a very different thing than the level that the OEM's are at with it.