EFI to replace Edelbrock carb

[tonysrt]

Even the EFI makers admit problems. Sniper 2 fixed the problems of Sniper 1. FiTech had ECU problems because it is in the throttle body and got heat soaked. So the choice is yours and carbs don't have the intricacy of aftermarket EFI.

 

[abodyjoe]

I had a '15 R/T 6M at one point. I had my '74 Duster at the same time, and while I still drove the Duster and messed with it, the majority of the time I drove the Challenger. Not that the Duster wasn't fun, but the Challenger did literally everything I wanted it to do better.

its funny. we have the dart and also a low mileage 2008 mustang gt.. the mustang does everything better and has cruise, a/c, 5 speed and gets 24 or so mpg. now that the dart is where i wanted it we drive that way way more then the mustang..

 

[Hellrats]

How much do you drive your old car compared to your Challenger? Not poking at you, just curious.

I drive my Scamp, My CJ5 and 1969 VW Bug a lot when the weather is nice. Still have my 1997 Dakota I did a 5.9 swap with the factory EFI with over 230,000 miles to hall work stuff and toys. Still have 3 old school motorcycles I ride too so I have to spread the love. Now that I'm retired I get to drive them more. My wife still works full time and if the weather is nice you will never get her out of that Challenger! I think I must be to only guy left around my area that will work on old stuff anymore. I will work on them all. 2 wheels or 4. It's a carb they all work the same. But now I get to pick and choose what I want to work on. I have no shortage of people asking for help and I don't mind at all. The biggest problem is getting good parts. So yes I drive them all.

 

[goldduster318]

I'd really tell someone most of the time these days to get their carb "close" and get a carb cheater. That can help you deal with the pitfalls of the carb for altitude, temp, some calibration holes, etc.

I set up both, on a stock to mild vehicle, really the right size carb works pretty well. The more wild it gets if you still want great driveablity, the EFI is better. The carb cheater can bridge the gap. Or mask some lack of tuning skills. It's still a computer though.

 

[abodyjoe]

I'd really tell someone most of the time these days to get their carb "close" and get a carb cheater. That can help you deal with the pitfalls of the carb for altitude, temp, some calibration holes, etc.

I set up both, on a stock to mild vehicle, really the right size carb works pretty well. The more wild it gets if you still want great driveablity, the EFI is better. The carb cheater can bridge the gap. Or mask some lack of tuning skills. It's still a computer though.

this thing? Carbureted Innovations LLC

whats it do and hows it work?


.

 

[goldduster318]

this thing? Carbureted Innovations LLC

whats it do and hows it work?


.

Yes, that's it. This is maybe the best video on it

It's essentially an idle air control valve where it uses a wideband O2 sensor and some algorithms to use it as a feedback control loop to adjust the air fuel ratio on the fly.

 

[abodyjoe]

cool

 

[RustyRatRod]

Yeah, I keep telling myself I need to convert my Duster over to EFI but I still just haven't done it, I'm still running a Holley Ultra 750 double pumper.

Which is not without it's issues, I basically have a "summer tune" and a "winter tune" because of the changes to the gasoline formula (more ethanol) for the summer and winter, and then the temperature and elevation changes I deal with on my commute. If I was just tuned for around my house it would be fine, or if I was tuned for the valley it would be fine, but I have to do both and that's a 3,500 ft elevation change and a minimum of a 10° average temperature difference. And then in the summer it can see 105°+ in the valley, but in the winter I may be doing cold starts with the air temp in the 20°'s. With my O2 sensor and AFR gauge I can basically tell when they change the fuels over and I end up going up or down a size on my jets depending on which way it's going. And even that has some nuance, because the AFR range you want to be in changes with the ethanol content too! The temperature makes a big difference too though.

And with EFI I wouldn't have to deal with any of that, or the choke, or whatever. It would just do it.

The problem is that EFI is a big commitment to do correctly. You can't just bolt it on and plug it in. You have to make sure you install everything correctly, and by that I mean all the proper grounds, sensor locations, provide the appropriate voltages to everything, etc. And that's VERY different from tuning a carburetor, now you're into troubleshooting with a multimeter and a computer instead of just reading spark plugs and smelling the exhaust. Even just getting an AFR and O2 sensor set up just for carb tuning has its own pitfalls, you have to understand not just what the gauge is showing you, but how it GETS that number so you can understand that sometimes the reading means something beyond it's too rich or lean. But more than anything, reading about what people go through with EFI conversions and the issues they have it's very much dependent on voltages and grounds, so the wiring install is where many people go wrong.

And then the other part is just my comfort level, like I know how the carb works and troubleshooting it with the extra input from the AFR gauge is something I'm comfortable with. With an EFI system you get into stuff I don't like dealing with as much, electrical stuff, computer stuff, etc. Which is not to say it isn't better! Not at all. But I know that for me at least, I would have a lot to learn to properly troubleshoot any of the EFI systems I'd be installing. And aftermarket EFI is still a very different thing than the level that the OEM's are at with it.

Do you fellas not have non ethanol out there?

 

[72bluNblu]

Do you fellas not have non ethanol out there?

Yeah that's not really a thing here, I think the only places you could get it would be an airport or a race track. But I fill up almost every week. So it's not like I can go way out of my way or pay a ton more for fuel, store large amounts etc. Maybe if I had a race car I took out on the street once and awhile, but I drive too much to be screwing around with all of that all the time. I have to be able to run pump gas.

All I really do is go up a jet size for winter and down one for summer, it really doesn't change anything else enough for it to be an issue. Realistically, managing the elevation change and the temperature swing would probably require the re-jet by itself. Tuning the thing to be happy when it's in the mid-nineties and then having it be in the mid-fifties or colder in the winter makes a substantial difference in the AFR's. Guys re-tune their drag cars at the track for far less temperature and altitude difference than my car sees.

 

[abodyjoe]

Do you fellas not have non ethanol out there?

not around me that i know of.

 

[RustyRatRod]

not around me that i know of.

That surprises me. Gray is the county seat here. Under 3K people on paper. Every gas station there has it as well as all the surrounding areas.

 

[rmchrgr]

I'd really tell someone most of the time these days to get their carb "close" and get a carb cheater.

Looks similar to the Innovate Motorsports stuff that was around several years ago. I had an LM-1. Came with an 02 sensor and an A/F ratio gauge and you could data log with it if you had the right cable connections.

I mostly just used the gauge while I was driving. It definitely taught me a lot about carburetors. I'm no pro but I was able to get my junk to run pretty crisp. it was a good learning experience.

After using that thing EFI was the next logical step.

 

[goldduster318]

Looks similar to the Innovate Motorsports stuff that was around several years ago. I had an LM-1. Came with an 02 sensor and an A/F ratio gauge and you could data log with it if you had the right cable connections.

I mostly just used the gauge while I was driving. It definitely taught me a lot about carburetors. I'm no pro but I was able to get my junk to run pretty crisp. it was a good learning experience.

After using that thing EFI was the next logical step.

This is totally different, it actually ADJUSTS the AFR while driving, not just a monitor.

 

[abodyjoe]

Yes, that's it. This is maybe the best video on it

It's essentially an idle air control valve where it uses a wideband O2 sensor and some algorithms to use it as a feedback control loop to adjust the air fuel ratio on the fly.

so its better to have the carb a bit rich and this thing will lean it out..

 

[abodyjoe]

That surprises me. Gray is the county seat here. Under 3K people on paper. Every gas station there has it as well as all the surrounding areas.

if i go to upstate ny where the inlaws live i can find it..

 

[rmchrgr]

This is totally different, it actually ADJUSTS the AFR while driving, not just a monitor.

It looks like the Cheater device changes the A/F ratio on the fly with a controlled vacuum leak so to speak. I guess it's interesting but it seems pretty limited.

Also, half of the benefit of EFI is allowing the ECU to control ignition timing. Getting ignition curve correct always comes before touching the carb so it sort of presumes your timing is correct for whatever sitaution you're dealing with. Seems like a bit of a leap without data to confirm what you're looking at is optimal.

 

[RustyRatRod]

It looks like the Cheater device changes the A/F ratio on the fly with a controlled vacuum leak so to speak. I guess it's interesting but it seems pretty limited.

Also, half of the benefit of EFI is allowing the ECU to control ignition timing. Getting ignition curve correct always comes before touching the carb so it sort of presumes your timing is correct for whatever sitaution you're dealing with. Seems like a bit of a leap without data to confirm what you're looking at is optimal.

If that's how it works, it's both limited and very crude.

 

[goldduster318]

It looks like the Cheater device changes the A/F ratio on the fly with a controlled vacuum leak so to speak. I guess it's interesting but it seems pretty limited.

Also, half of the benefit of EFI is allowing the ECU to control ignition timing. Getting ignition curve correct always comes before touching the carb so it sort of presumes your timing is correct for whatever sitaution you're dealing with. Seems like a bit of a leap without data to confirm what you're looking at is optimal.

Oh I'm aware, read my earlier post about EFI, which I have on my own car. It is a solution for someone who CAN get it "close enough" and this can get you a lot of driveability improvement.

 

[matthon]

OP has left the building.