Electrical installation advice and next steps

[Omar Flores]

Hi everybody. This is my first post here, hope doing it well.
I just picked up a 76 Valiant Duster (Mexico) slant six. Originally three speed on column but at some point was converted to floor shifting.
I decided to start on the wiring which was a mess, I´m trying to put something simple and reliable that allows me to track any failure at any situation. Ign and lights are the only I'm interested in.
Car has points ignition, I doubt the alternator and Vr are the original ones and I'm also using a universal ign switch.
So far looks like this:
Battery: + to Stater and Bat terminal in the ign switch.
Alternator: to Starter (junction point??) and I terminal on the VR
VR: I and S terminals wired together and to the ballast driver side
Ballast: driver side VR (I and S) and ign in the switch the other side to the + on the coil
Coil: + from ballast - from distributor
Starter solenoid: Bat - Battery. Sol - Start Ing switch, G grounded (no NSS), I to Ign switch
Ign switch: Batt - battery, Ign - I in the solenoid, Start - Sol terminal in the solenoid.
The car fired up, just wanna make sure this arrange is ok and safe. Suggestions are welcome. Next steps relay and fuses where are necessary?
Sorry for such long post, I hope this is descriptive enough.
Thanks for your feedback. Saludos

 

[Ironracer]

Wow... that's all hand made. Thanks for the Dedication to try and get her rolling, lit! We usually just change out the harnesses, although there are other updates and repairs made over the years.
@67Dart273

 

[Murray]

Yes, you have a lot of non-factory wiring. Would still recommend you download a copy of the factory service manual (FSM) which includes a wiring schematic.

 

[Dana67Dart]

Looks like 73 dodge is going to be the closest Factory Service Manual (FSM) that is available.
Service Manuals – MyMopar
Wiring and Electrical – MyMopar
Wiring – MyMopar

And welcome to FABO.

Hooking up the voltage regulator (VR).

What are the markings on your Alternator?

Red =
Yellow =
Green = D+

What markings are in the item in blue?

 

[Mattax]

Except '76 FSM is not available for download at mymopar.
There is also the challenge of finding documentation for a Mexico build, which were sometimes different...
'76 was wired differently than previous years. We don't know how much remains of the '76 harnesses under the dash but for now, its not being used.

Battery: + to Stater and Bat terminal in the ign switch.
Alternator: to Starter (junction point??) and I terminal on the VR
VR: I and S terminals wired together and to the ballast driver side
Ballast: driver side VR (I and S) and ign in the switch the other side to the + on the coil
Coil: + from ballast - from distributor
Starter solenoid: Bat - Battery. Sol - Start Ing switch, G grounded (no NSS), I to Ign switch
Ign switch: Batt - battery, Ign - I in the solenoid, Start - Sol terminal in the solenoid.

The car fired up, just wanna make sure this arrange is ok and safe.

Hard to tell for sure but my suggestions for safer will be to protect the exposed connectors, and secure the wires but not too tight. There needs to be some strain relief in each line. Eventually it would be best to relocate the ballast resistor and starter relay under the flange for protection from rain. This is how the factory did it.

I don't recognize your alternator in the photo. early motorola?
The important things are
A: large enough wire from output terminal to recharge battery, run the car, and lights when you get them connected. That should join to the battery feed/charge line at some strong junction.

B: The alternator field is connected through the key switch. That way when the key is off, no power to the field. Otherwise the engine may continue to run with the key off.

Suggestions are welcome. Next steps relay and fuses where are necessary?

The factory didn't fuse much on the older cars. The main feeds had no fuse, but fusible links were added to prevent major feed wires from burning if the battery positive shorted to ground. You're wiring is most similar to early wiring.

As an example here is 1965 wiring

J2 is powered with key switch in run, as is accessory wire.
J3 and the yellow wire are powered only when the key is in start.

If the alternator's battery output wire joined at the starter relay, the car would still work.
However the fusible link would not protect against a short in the alternator. Nor would the ammeter read correctly.
You don't have those in your setup. Just showing you how it worked.

1976 had many changes in the scheme. Battery recharging became more important. Also with many more electrical 'accessories' they decided to split the loads on the firewall multiconnector. As part of this, a remote shunted ammeter was used. This type of ammeter can not be connected in line to the battery. If yours has small gage wires on it, its remote shunted.

This is a work in progress. The shunt is just a heavy black wire, probably 12 gage.

Note that there is a fusible link between the battery positive in each branch. Fusible link colors denote the size. Chrysler used blue for 16 ga. fusible links

maybe this weekend I can spend more time looking at what you have presented
but hopefully this will get you started

 

[67Dart273]

There are many many differences between 73, 74, and especially 76. Not the least of which is that 76 does not use the older "full current" ammeter. I would recommend you go online and find a reprint 76 manual.

I know nothing about the "export" cars alternators, as they obviously used different systems. The basic rules for proper regulator/ alternator operation are:

The alternator and VR MUST be exactly grounded to the battery negative. Any voltage drop in either the ground or power circuit to the VR causes over charging.

As above, the VR power wire (switched wire from the key) must be without voltage drop

The key switch you show is a part's store "universal" switch. This is somewhat different than usual Mopar factory switches. You could "get around" that by using a "Jeep" style starter relay which compensates for that ignition switch, as the ignition switch has no coil ballast bypass circuit. That extra terminal on the starter relay goes to coil POS and supplies "hot" ignition coil power during cranking. That is the top left terminal in the drawing.
Top left goes to coil+ for hot starting power
Big stud goes to battery and serves as junction point
Big "square screw" goes to starter solenoid, use big wire, no 12 or 10
Small terminals on bottom left and right goes to "start" terminal on key switch, and remaining small terminal goes to neutral safety switch, "center terminal" on transmission.

 

[Omar Flores]

Yes, you have a lot of non-factory wiring. Would still recommend you download a copy of the factory service manual (FSM) which includes a wiring schematic.

Thanks man, I downloaded the FSM from different years but since many of the original wiring has gone is hard to match with the original one.

 

[Omar Flores]

Looks like 73 dodge is going to be the closest Factory Service Manual (FSM) that is available.
Service Manuals – MyMopar
Wiring and Electrical – MyMopar
Wiring – MyMopar

And welcome to FABO.

Hooking up the voltage regulator (VR).

What are the markings on your Alternator?

Red =
Yellow =
Green = D+

What markings are in the item in blue?

View attachment 1715908012

Hi Dana, The one circled in blue is a capacitor 2.2F. The red one I think "N" it goes directly to the VR (I) and the yellow one is wired to the last one on the right. None of the diagrams show a 4 terminal Vr so I doubt if it's well connected.

 

[Omar Flores]

Except '76 FSM is not available for download at mymopar.
There is also the challenge of finding documentation for a Mexico build, which were sometimes different...
'76 was wired differently than previous years. We don't know how much remains of the '76 harnesses under the dash but for now, its not being used.




Hard to tell for sure but my suggestions for safer will be to protect the exposed connectors, and secure the wires but not too tight. There needs to be some strain relief in each line. Eventually it would be best to relocate the ballast resistor and starter relay under the flange for protection from rain. This is how the factory did it.

I don't recognize your alternator in the photo. early motorola?
The important things are
A: large enough wire from output terminal to recharge battery, run the car, and lights when you get them connected. That should join to the battery feed/charge line at some strong junction.

B: The alternator field is connected through the key switch. That way when the key is off, no power to the field. Otherwise the engine may continue to run with the key off.


The factory didn't fuse much on the older cars. The main feeds had no fuse, but fusible links were added to prevent major feed wires from burning if the battery positive shorted to ground. You're wiring is most similar to early wiring.

As an example here is 1965 wiring
View attachment 1715908009
J2 is powered with key switch in run, as is accessory wire.
J3 and the yellow wire are powered only when the key is in start.

If the alternator's battery output wire joined at the starter relay, the car would still work.
However the fusible link would not protect against a short in the alternator. Nor would the ammeter read correctly.
You don't have those in your setup. Just showing you how it worked.

1976 had many changes in the scheme. Battery recharging became more important. Also with many more electrical 'accessories' they decided to split the loads on the firewall multiconnector. As part of this, a remote shunted ammeter was used. This type of ammeter can not be connected in line to the battery. If yours has small gage wires on it, its remote shunted.

This is a work in progress. The shunt is just a heavy black wire, probably 12 gage.
View attachment 1715908011
Note that there is a fusible link between the battery positive in each branch. Fusible link colors denote the size. Chrysler used blue for 16 ga. fusible links

maybe this weekend I can spend more time looking at what you have presented
but hopefully this will get you started

Hi Mattax. Yes, nothing of the original wiring left and some of the components are different (alt and vr).
This is a provisional wiring just to see if the cars start, I'm going to replace with new wires and and arrange everything.
So I'll connect the Alt output terminal and the battery in a separate junction.
I'll put fuses in between the battery / starter / solenoid.
So far what makes me doubt the most is the Alt and Vr connections. All the diagrams I have seen only show I and F terminals in these components.
I'll share updates.
Thanks

 

[67Dart273]

I cannot help with the alternator, but what you appear to have is a basic "Ford style" voltage regulator. The "I" terminal is for the "indicator" lamp, no charge lamp or idiot lamp. The "S" normally goes to the "stator" terminal but many alternators don't have one, so in this case they are running the "S" terminal to a switched "ignition" power source from the key. The F then goes to the field.

It appears they have jumpered "A" and "S" together and I hope wired them to the key switch. It is better to run "S" to the key, and run "A" direct to battery for a more accurate charging voltage.

 

[Dana67Dart]

So far what makes me doubt the most is the Alt and Vr connections. All the diagrams I have seen only show I and F terminals in these components.
I'll share updates

I think there is some confusion here.

Your car is a bit of a mismatch of parts.

I would not try to duplicate the origional wiring at this point.

Just use it as a reference on how things work.

There are 2 types of Chrysler VR and alternators

One VR has an Ing and a Fld. "Ing" ultimately goes to switched ignition switch.
"Fld" goes to an older style alternator field terminal on the alternator.

The other style has 3 wires,
one is power in, from the ignition switch and the other 2 go to the field terminals on a later style alternator.

Your alternator is neither of the Chrysler types.

Many alternators function the same and the wiring will be very similar.

I googled the VR name and part number. There is a lot of info. You should also be able to find a name and part number on the alternator.

 

[Omar Flores]

I cannot help with the alternator, but what you appear to have is a basic "Ford style" voltage regulator. The "I" terminal is for the "indicator" lamp, no charge lamp or idiot lamp. The "S" normally goes to the "stator" terminal but many alternators don't have one, so in this case they are running the "S" terminal to a switched "ignition" power source from the key. The F then goes to the field.

View attachment 1715908179

It appears they have jumpered "A" and "S" together and I hope wired them to the key switch. It is better to run "S" to the key, and run "A" direct to battery for a more accurate charging voltage.

Thanks Sr. I'll try this tomorrow. Keep you all updated

 

[Mattax]

Well the video shows different wiring than 67Dart273 is suggesting.
Since I can not translate the Spanish on my own, can't be much help on that.

It does seem similar to Motorcraft 1G but the alternator looks a little different to me.
There are a few different ways the alternator and regulator can be wired and all will work.
The wiring method depends on things such as whether an indicator lamp or an ammeter will be used to monitor whether it is working.

This is an approach when used with an indicator lamp

When the engine is just starting up, battery power goes to I on the regulator.
Voltage is below the setpoint so the regulator completes the field circuit.
Current flows through the lamp to the I terminal, and the lamp lights up. If the bulb is burned out, electricity can flow through the resistor.

As soon as the alternator is producing power, electricity for the field flows from the alternator to the regulator. So the lamp turns off.
---------------------------
As far as wiring under the dash, see what is there. Take some photos and post them. It will be easier to make suggestions seeing what the car has rather than showing you all the possibilities.

 

[Omar Flores]

Well the video shows different wiring than 67Dart273 is suggesting.
Since I can not translate the Spanish on my own, can't be much help on that.

It does seem similar to Motorcraft 1G but the alternator looks a little different to me.
There are a few different ways the alternator and regulator can be wired and all will work.
The wiring method depends on things such as whether an indicator lamp or an ammeter will be used to monitor whether it is working.

This is an approach when used with an indicator lamp
View attachment 1715908653
View attachment 1715908654

When the engine is just starting up, battery power goes to I on the regulator.
Voltage is below the setpoint so the regulator completes the field circuit.
Current flows through the lamp to the I terminal, and the lamp lights up. If the bulb is burned out, electricity can flow through the resistor.

As soon as the alternator is producing power, electricity for the field flows from the alternator to the regulator. So the lamp turns off.
---------------------------
As far as wiring under the dash, see what is there. Take some photos and post them. It will be easier to make suggestions seeing what the car has rather than showing you all the possibilities.

Hi Mattax, after a close look up on the alt this is how is wired. (No brand or model anywhere). I only have the cluster but isn't connected. Maybe the ammeter still works.

 

[Slowswinger]

Hi Mattax, after a close look up on the alt this is how is wired. (No brand or model anywhere). I only have the cluster but isn't connected. Maybe the ammeter still works.

View attachment 1715909157

View attachment 1715909158

View attachment 1715909159

View attachment 1715909160

I would be concerned about the continuity of the connections to your alternator. Is the blue wire tucked under the crimp part of the ring eye? Either way I would put on a new ring eye on the blue wire. The white wire needs a ring eye. When you have the nuts off the post I’d clean it up so the ring eye has good continuity. I like to solder the ring eye crimp, some have other opinions about that. Our mopars can have electrical problems from bad continuity, bad connections, bad wires, etc. Even a cheap volt ohm meter will be a huge help for your project.

 

[Dana67Dart]

What are your plans for the car?

Restore it to stock or just have something that runs?

As for the dash, the gauges appear to be parked in the normal places so there is a chance they work.

Temporarily touching a 9 volt battery to the posts in red and then in green. If you see movement of the gauge they probably work.

The blue posts are the alternator (Ammeter) gauge post, testing that is a bit more complex.

 

[Mattax]

I think your car has a Bosch alternator similar to those used by VW.

How can I identify which alternator is the right one?

here's the internal regulator version

If the above is correct, then its pretty easy to wire it using either method chrysler used.

 

[Mattax]

What are your plans for the car?

Restore it to stock or just have something that runs?

As for the dash, the gauges appear to be parked in the normal places so there is a chance they work.

Temporarily touching a 9 volt battery to the posts in red and then in green. If you see movement of the gauge they probably work.

The blue posts are the alternator (Ammeter) gauge post, testing that is a bit more complex.
View attachment 1715909232

Got an idea about further testing but it requires a multi-meter.
Measure the resistance across each gage including the ammeter.
The fuel and temperature gages are wound with resistance wire. Their measurements will reflect that.
If the ammeter is an in-line unit, it will have zero resistance.
If the ammeter is designed as a shunted unit, I think it will have high resistance. It will also look different if you remove it and take a photo. @67Dart273 has worked with those and can confirm or correct what I wrote.

 

[Dana67Dart]

If the above is correct, then its pretty easy to wire it using either method chrysler used

That looks very much like what the OP has.

Green (blue wire) looks like it is grounded.

Red (white wire) looks like it is a field input from a voltage regulator?

it feels like it is an isolated field alternator with one field terminal grounded making it work like a grounded field round back alternator.

But this is all pure guessing !

@Omar Flores something that would be VERY felpfull is if you would sketch out a rough wiring diagram of what you have now

Note the wire color, connector color, thick or thin wire, etc.

 

[Omar Flores]

That looks very much like what the OP has.

Green (blue wire) looks like it is grounded.

Red (white wire) looks like it is a field input from a voltage regulator?
View attachment 1715909291

it feels like it is an isolated field alternator with one field terminal grounded making it work like a grounded field round back alternator.

But this is all pure guessing !

@Omar Flores something that would be VERY felpfull is if you would sketch out a rough wiring diagram of what you have now

Note the wire color, connector color, thick or thin wire, etc.

Hi Dana, Thanks for the feedback. My plan is have something that runs, the car has lots of missing parts so is out of my budget restore it. This is the preliminary configuration I used.

 

[Dana67Dart]

Ideally your starter switch would have a separate cir for starting. Mopar starter switches have this.

The idea is to provide full battery voltage to the coil + during cranking / starting. Then switch back to ballast voltage for run.

If you take full battery voltage from the starter realy starter solenoid post you will be back feeding to the starter solenoid when not cranking and it might try to pull in the starter through the ballast and ignition switch when in run.

If you take it from the ignition switch then it will back feed to the starter relay during run conditions trying to energize the starter relay.


As for the alt cir, did it run this way to your knowledge?

 

[Omar Flores]

Ideally your starter switch would have a separate cir for starting. Mopar starter switches have this.

The idea is to provide full battery voltage to the coil + during cranking / starting. Then switch back to ballast voltage for run.

If you take full battery voltage from the starter realy starter solenoid post you will be back feeding to the starter solenoid when not cranking and it might try to pull in the starter through the ballast and ignition switch when in run.

If you take it from the ignition switch then it will back feed to the starter relay during run conditions trying to energize the starter relay.


As for the alt cir, did it run this way to your knowledge?

Ideally your starter switch would have a separate cir for starting. Mopar starter switches have this.

The idea is to provide full battery voltage to the coil + during cranking / starting. Then switch back to ballast voltage for run.

If you take full battery voltage from the starter realy starter solenoid post you will be back feeding to the starter solenoid when not cranking and it might try to pull in the starter through the ballast and ignition switch when in run.

If you take it from the ignition switch then it will back feed to the starter relay during run conditions trying to energize the starter relay.


As for the alt cir, did it run this way to your knowledge?

Actually the alt cir is the only that remains the same as when get the car. (Alt to Vr, and Vr A S jumped wires) I put the rest based on the original diagrams and other posts info.
Sorry, I'm a bit more confused now. How would you suggest considering the items I have. I'm doing this blindly as I have no prior experience. TIA

 

[Dana67Dart]

same as when get the car

Did the car run when you got it?

Your doing fine for what you have to work with.

 

[Omar Flores]

Did the car run when you got it?

Your doing fine for what you have to work with.

No it wasn't running. Ok so i'll proceed to connect all in it's right place. Thanks, let you know any updates.

 

[Dana67Dart]

I would be tempted to not wire up the alternator as you have it shown for now to just get the engine fired up.

After the engine is running you can do some testing on the alternator and see for sure what you have going on.