Electronic Vs. Points

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Princess Valiant

Princess Valiant

A.K.A. Rainy Day Auto
Joined
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so I had a guy show up today ....a friend of one of my customers. I must be getting old because I would consider him a KID(high school kid). He has a 74 dart sport 318/ auto and it runs and drives nice......overall nice car.

The reason he contacted me is because he wants me to do some mods to the car, so I said "ok, what do you have in mind?"

He says: "I want to get rid of the electronic ignition"

So I say: "what kind of setup do you want to replace it with?"

he says: "points, just like the older and more powerful cars"

I say: "uuhhh, I am pretty sure the electronic set up on this car is pretty good and not sure I ever heard of someone wanting to do this modification"

He says: "I heard points are better for extreme high performance and the smog stuff in this car is junk and I am planning to mod the engine for 400 HP down the road"

Soooo before I committed yes or no, I told him I would research a bit but I didn't tell him I found the idea very odd.

Is there any good reason someone would get rid of the factory electronic for points??

I can understand a fancy MSD or aftermarket thingy but POINTS!!???!!!??
 
Tell him to step up to MSD...And the boy doesn't have a clue what he is talking about.
 
He's going the wrong direction if he want's performance out of an ignition system.
MSD, HEI, or even just a good strong coil with what he has now would be better than points.
Yea, they had their place in history but so did milking cows by hand.

Now from a business owners stand I say explain that to him and do it anyway if he still wants you to.
(Easy money for you, and the customer gets what he asked for)
 
Tell him to hit the bricks. You don't need customers like him. He's stupid. He'll cause you nothing but trouble.
 
RustyRatRod said:
Tell him to hit the bricks. You don't need customers like him. He's stupid. He'll cause you nothing but trouble.
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Give the kid a chance to learn. Everybody was ignorant once, and it's not impossible for a bright person to have had lousy information pooped into his/her head from a friend or other source that seemed to be reputable - before knowing better.

However, if the kid still doesn't learn after the second or third time around (and still talks about squeezing 400 horses out of his 318 as if it's something entirely doable on a budget), THEN he's damn brick stupid beyond a shadow of a doubt.

-Kurt
 
cudak888 said:
Give the kid a chance to learn. Everybody was ignorant once, and it's not impossible for a bright person to have had lousy information pooped into his/her head from a friend or other source that seemed to be reputable - before knowing better.

However, if the kid still doesn't learn after the second or third time around (and still talks about squeezing 400 horses out of his 318 as if it's something entirely doable on a budget), THEN he's damn brick stupid beyond a shadow of a doubt.

-Kurt
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RRR is probably right though. (from experience) :D

She could explain it to him, and then tell him to kick rocks if he doesn't accept it, and then someone down the road will tell him the same thing when he asks them.

Ah you said that. :D oops
 
TrailBeast said:
RRR is probably right though. (from experience) :D

She could explain it to him, and then tell him to kick rocks if he doesn't accept it, and then someone down the road will tell him the same thing when he asks them.
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Bingo - unless Points Guy finds someone spewing his own bull somewhere in the middle (in which case, he can live in his little points/condenser cult bubble for the rest of his life) ;)

-Kurt
 
Explain it to him thus, Rani

The Mopar factory breakerless ignition works EXACTLY like points except the "points" hardly ever go bad, that is the "points" in the ECU. The ECU switches the coil off the very same way the points do

The coil, and the coil resistor is very very close to "same as" the old "points" coil.

IN FACT all you have to do in order to "emergency" run a car with a bad ECU system is to unplug the ECU, drop in a "points" distributor, and hook the wire up to the coil.

He is right about one thing.........the smog advance curve in the distributor. However, any 70 or maybe 71? car that still had factory points ALSO had a "smog curve" in the distributor. That part of it has nothing to do with whether breaker points or breakerless.

And............I sort of lean towards Rusty. Explain it to him simple and easy, ONCE. If he does not want to listen, "hit the trail."

You can also tell him you know this "old guy." I'm 67, and I will NEVER use a points system if I can get around it!!!
 
cudak888 said:
Give the kid a chance to learn. Everybody was ignorant once, and it's not impossible for a bright person to have had lousy information pooped into his/her head from a friend or other source that seemed to be reputable - before knowing better.

However, if the kid still doesn't learn after the second or third time around (and still talks about squeezing 400 horses out of his 318 as if it's something entirely doable on a budget), THEN he's damn brick stupid beyond a shadow of a doubt.

-Kurt
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Da hell. It aint her job to educate people. If you have to do the repair AND educate too, it should cost four times as much. If she talks him into it, every single problem he ever has with that car from there on will be her fault. Even when the radio quits workin.

"It's that damn ignition that GIRL talked me into" Seen it so many times it's pathetic.

People are idiots.

Thank you drive through.
 
dial in the dist subsystems in order: initial with the vac gauge method/FBO plate to limit adv total to 35 (initial+slots)/springs (toss the heavy one with the long elongated loop on one end & sub in a mr gasket or MP light spring for it for a start & keep the OE light spring) so you are a bit under the pinging point at WOT up thru the gears on your hottest/driest (most likely to ping) day THEN plug in/adj the can staying a bit under the pinging point in everyday driving under varying load (in hg) and RPM conditions on your hottest/driest day. Charge him accordingly! First I'd adv the cam then dial in the dist then jet the carb. He'll be happy and you'll make money & your tuning rep will be vastly improved!
 
lolWell if the points are the cat's meow, Which factory hi-performance car out there today has em? Huh. Name it. Or, for that matter,any car at all.......lol
Ask him that..............
Wonder what else this "kid" has been taught as fact..........
 
AJ/FormS said:
Well if the points are the cat's meow, Which factory hi-performance car out there today has em? Huh. Name it. Or, for that matter,any car at all.......
Ask him that..............
Wonder what else this "kid" has been taught as fact..........
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Bad information on top of bad information is one of the biggest killers of our hobby - especially for those less mechanically minded, who can be easily fleeced; not so much out of their stupidity but out of sheer confusion. It took me a while to understand this stuff, and I'm still learning myself.

I wouldn't say that a car with three engine computers feeding into a central PCM is the cat's meow either. If anything was engineered perfect in the real world, we wouldn't be going into speed shops looking to fix what the bean counters or government screwed up for us.

-Kurt
 
When I worked for Lennox, my boss had a VERY short fuse for "time wasters." People who came in, some hairbrained idea, didn't want to listen, and would rather argue.

It's way too easy to get trapped into a 15--30 minute BS session when you should be "making money."
 
again fabo people make some good points .....(haha pun)

He caught me by surprise because I never expected anyone to request that. I myself have converted points cars to stock type electronic with the wire harness from MOPAR performance and WELLS or original parts and its worked brilliant.

as far as the 400HP out of a 318 ....that seemed odd to me but I am not here to argue so I don't know.

figured I would run it through you guys to make sure I don't respond to him while missing something.
 
Well LMAO 400 out of a 318 is doable with engough parts and money, but I doubt HE has the smarts to do so!!

And, it turns out, there are "different" HP ratings.

"Whut it really does"

"Whut the internet thinks"

"Whut me 'n all my beer buddies thinks"

The last two are generally, about the same
 
RustyRatRod said:
Tell him to hit the bricks. You don't need customers like him. He's stupid. He'll cause you nothing but trouble.
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run run run 1st set of points he burns up he will bad mouth you to death costing you customers, business and lots and lots of $$$$$. No good deed goes unpunished. My boss in the early 90's had a wonderful automotive shop philosophy....If we can not fix it and get it out the door same day we are not interested in working on it. He never had a lot full of dead/project cars. He made tons of money, and he stayed in business almost 50 years.
 
acpat said:
run run run 1st set of points he burns up he will bad mouth you to death costing you customers, business and lots and lots of $$$$$. No good deed goes unpunished. My boss in the early 90's had a wonderful automotive shop philosophy....If we can not fix it and get it out the door same day we are not interested in working on it. He never had a lot full of dead/project cars. He made tons of money, and he stayed in business almost 50 years.
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This is truth... If he wants a stock distributor setup: Stock Mopar electronic, or a points distributior,with a Pertronix 1 setup. Points ,are a PITA...
 
Del,
However, any 70 or maybe 71? car that still had factory points ALSO had a "smog curve" I replaced my 69 distributor and it seems a bit sluggish. Same timing. How do I confirm and replace the "curve"?
 
rays266 said:
Del,
However, any 70 or maybe 71? car that still had factory points ALSO had a "smog curve" I replaced my 69 distributor and it seems a bit sluggish. Same timing. How do I confirm and replace the "curve"?
Click to expand...

Start a separate post in ignition forums,or P.M. Del.. That way,attention gets paid to your needs.
 
He needs to do some research on his own time. It's not like the info is hard to find.
 
rays266 said:
Del,
However, any 70 or maybe 71? car that still had factory points ALSO had a "smog curve" I replaced my 69 distributor and it seems a bit sluggish. Same timing. How do I confirm and replace the "curve"?
Click to expand...

You probably got a generic distributor with "who knows" what curve. The best "present" answer is either buy a performance aftermarket distributor, or have the one you have re-curved (requires welding or brazing) or else go to the FBO site and look for one of their "limiter plate" kits..........

http://www.4secondsflat.com/Mopar Mechanical timing limiter plate.htm
 
Same timing. How do I confirm and replace the "curve"?
Click to expand...
(1) set the initial with "the vacuum gauge method" (2) with that number in hand use the $25 FBO plate to limit your total (initial from #1 and FBO plate amt) to 35. (3) toss the heavy spring with the elongated loop on one end & sub in a MP or mr gasket lite spring for it for a start and go heavier or lighter staying a bit under the pinging point at WOT up thru the gears on your hottest/driest (most likely to ping) day then plug in the can to ported/adj it with a 3/32" allen wrench staying just under the pinging point in everyday driving under varying load (in hg) and RPM conditions on your hottest/driest day. CCW makes it come in later (less adv). check rotor phasing and distance from rotor tip to underside cap terminal. On #3 with the long loop spring tossed the spring combo (oe lite spring/your added lite spring) no matter what the combo advances in a linear rate so sub in an Ace hardware weaker or stouter spring till you get what you are after. iirc the mr gasket part # is 925B
 
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