Engine builders...this machining cost sound excessive?

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What did the customer ask for? Go .030, r and r pistons. A good shop would add "need to paint -not, u want cam bearings and freeze plugs and plate hone and decks surfaced and big ends of rods done etc. All it takes is a phone call. I love yall that say you had everything possible done to your stuff and the price he paid is cool.
 
I didn't read every post...but there are several problems here. The absolute biggest is 'why did that donkey have it 10 months?' I might have missed something, but assuming I didn't - life is too short to wait for that long for a couple days' worth of work.

Also, your failure to define scope of work and price ahead of time didn't help.

No one should get $80 per hole unless it is Ray Barton or one of the Landy boys, and they are using honing plates, too. The problem with $80/hole is there are 8 of them and 8 x $80 = $640. Tell the machine shop you want their kids to go Harvard but you don't want to pay for it.

Why would a machine shop want to paint a block, and why would you let them?

You know the old saying "You can have it good, fast and cheap -pick any two"? You got one, maybe.
 
"What about all of the things shop owners DON'T get paid for?
*Dealing with customers who want something for nothing.
*Babysitting those who do not understand the process, but still complain
*Covering all of your bases, so that you're not married to the job for the rest of your businesses life
*complying with OSHA, EPA, city and county regulations, Fire Dept, Workmans Comp, Etc.
*sitting on completed work, cause the customer is in jail
*lost labor, cause the customer changed their mind and abandoned the project
*projects brought in, in a crate (parts missing)
*ETC"


See, this is the New Math at work when it comes to business ownership. I have some bad news - those items are mostly called 'the cost of being in business'. Also known as 'overhead'. It's the price YOU pay for being in business.
If I wanted to pay them, I'd be in the business. As for the others, they are what's called 'management'. Also known as 'knowing how to run a business'. It's not my fault you took in work for some jamoke who is in jail or changed his mind - don't ask me to pay for it. Here's a better idea - take a bath this time, then learn next time and you'll be a better operator.

It's become fashionable to run a business with the idea that you can replace knowledge and skill by tossing more money on your price. But the truth leaks out - a guy who truly knows his profession doesn't have to rely on adding fat. And another sad fact is running a donut shop might just entitle you to living in a $750K house and retiring at 50. Why is it every time I hear the sob story above about how hard it is to be in business, it's coming from a guy who drops $100K per year on racing or bass fishing or golfing and drives a 1 year old F-350 diesel Platinum 4X4?
 
Around here bore/hone is around $180 on a V8. Sleeving is $100 first hole $80 after that per hole plus sleeve. Deck paralell to crank $80-90. $160-180 for a five angle valve job. Balance is around $200. Head resurface $40.

Just sample prices from the shops I use today.

My last Hemi build took $1500-1800 for everything...line hone, bore, hone, deck block, resurface heads, valve job, five sleeves...might be more don't remember,
 
gregcon said:
"What about all of the things shop owners DON'T get paid for?
*Dealing with customers who want something for nothing.
*Babysitting those who do not understand the process, but still complain
*Covering all of your bases, so that you're not married to the job for the rest of your businesses life
*complying with OSHA, EPA, city and county regulations, Fire Dept, Workmans Comp, Etc.
*sitting on completed work, cause the customer is in jail
*lost labor, cause the customer changed their mind and abandoned the project
*projects brought in, in a crate (parts missing)
*ETC"


See, this is the New Math at work when it comes to business ownership. I have some bad news - those items are mostly called 'the cost of being in business'. Also known as 'overhead'. It's the price YOU pay for being in business.
If I wanted to pay them, I'd be in the business. As for the others, they are what's called 'management'. Also known as 'knowing how to run a business'. It's not my fault you took in work for some jamoke who is in jail or changed his mind - don't ask me to pay for it. Here's a better idea - take a bath this time, then learn next time and you'll be a better operator.

It's become fashionable to run a business with the idea that you can replace knowledge and skill by tossing more money on your price. But the truth leaks out - a guy who truly knows his profession doesn't have to rely on adding fat. And another sad fact is running a donut shop might just entitle you to living in a $750K house and retiring at 50. Why is it every time I hear the sob story above about how hard it is to be in business, it's coming from a guy who drops $100K per year on racing or bass fishing or golfing and drives a 1 year old F-350 diesel Platinum 4X4?
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You need to open a shop so you can go broke in 6 months. There is no new math there. It is what the business is. Who says it doesn’t take 50-60 bucks to bore and home a hole? It damn sure does, and then some. Shop rate should be NO LESS than 100 bucks an hour.

It’s a shitty way to make a living. Way more ways to lose money than to make money. So open a shop. Then you’ll know.
 
I work for a shop wherein we have tens of millions of dollars of machine tools - many, many times more than any automotive machine shop. Our shop rate is $145/hr and that is with a union workforce getting full benefits and pension. Don't tell me the average auto shop needs to hit $100/hour. And don't tell me a hole takes an hour to bore and hone. It doesn't. I do agree auto machine is a lousy way to make a living...your customer base is among the worst. Plenty of dope users and thieves and scumbags. And worst of all...it's essentially retail business. Anytime you have to deal with the general public, you're gonna hate life.
 
gregcon said:
I work for a shop wherein we have tens of millions of dollars of machine tools - many, many times more than any automotive machine shop. Our shop rate is $145/hr and that is with a union workforce getting full benefits and pension. Don't tell me the average auto shop needs to hit $100/hour. And don't tell me a hole takes an hour to bore and hone. It doesn't. I do agree auto machine is a lousy way to make a living...your customer base is among the worst. Plenty of dope users and thieves and scumbags. And worst of all...it's essentially retail business. Anytime you have to deal with the general public, you're gonna hate life.
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I’m telling you a hundred bucks an hour is barely making it. I just went buy a local shop today to see about renting some shop time and he was finishing up the last of two engines that both lost cams. One was a customer at the track doing some testing (how he ever got the track to rent him test time I have no idea) but the engine was run in with single springs and 1.35 rockers. About 6 laps in, it lost 6 lobes.

The second engine the shop owner himself ran it it on his run in stand with single springs and 1.35 rockers. Never made it to even the inner springs and took out 4 lobes.

Comp is replacing the cams and lifters (which BTW had several lifters that were .080 short and Comp had no idea what happened there. So he is out all the parts to tear down two new engines, new bearings, all the cleaning and associated work, reassemble and break them in. All out of HIS pocket. 100 bucks an hour isn’t ****, and when guys start bitching bout what this costs, they need to re-evaluate what they are doing. Maybe take up golf.

I retired out of a job shop, that actually is run well enough to have gone through a pretty big expansion during the last recession. So I’m fully aware of that side of it as well.
 
gregcon said:
I work for a shop wherein we have tens of millions of dollars of machine tools - many, many times more than any automotive machine shop. Our shop rate is $145/hr and that is with a union workforce getting full benefits and pension. Don't tell me the average auto shop needs to hit $100/hour. And don't tell me a hole takes an hour to bore and hone. It doesn't. I do agree auto machine is a lousy way to make a living...your customer base is among the worst. Plenty of dope users and thieves and scumbags. And worst of all...it's essentially retail business. Anytime you have to deal with the general public, you're gonna hate life.
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You sound like an entitled uh youth that really lucked out. You lack REAL perspective. I have many many customers and not one of them is a dope user/thief or scumbag. In fact most of them are small business owners or white collar types (boat owners). I almost never have an issue when I present the bill. I do have a few "nickle and dimers" from time to time but they seem to be few and far between nowadays. My previous employer charged $300/hr when we had to turn on the big Mazak Integrex 1850-V. Your shop rate @ $145/hr is certainly high end thats for sure. Some days you make double your shop rate and others you make zilch or even lose/hr. The best we can hope for is we break even at our shop rate--it usually does. And yes the average auto machine shop better hit $100/hr to keep the lights on and not work for free. J.Rob
 
Depends a ton on the area (the NE USA is gonna be expensive) and the shop and how established it is (machines paid for or not) and how they run things (clever at making tooling and has done most everything already, or need to buy everything). I'd pay far less that the OP, more like Kooser pays, but when Bill Mathias at Eastside Machine here retries, I expect to pay a lot more. So really there is no 'typical'.

And let's not forget the exchange rate to Canada; RAMM's rates will be roughly 30% lower in the US just based on the exchange rate now.
 
You are right about a good guy retiring... Everyone who does my stuff is 65 plus... Won't be long before all the old guys are gone.
 
I can see a shop charging $50 per hour and making a living. The owner's wife would have to pay for health insurance, the machinery would have to be paid for and fully depreciated, the building wouldn't be valued very high, no employees, all tooling on hand, run only 1 machine at a time [industrial electricity has a very expensive peak load charge], and only take in engines you are experienced in [no Screwbarus].

The other side is if you are starting up a shop, you have a newer building [leased?], new machinery, new tooling required, employees, unemployment comp., high town taxes, employee health ins, etc,etc. Probably a half to one million to start up? Opinions welcome. In CT, taxes are based @ 70%, so 1,000,000 @ 70% = 700,000 X $33 per $1000 = $23,000 to the town. And if you had a cool million, you'd expect a 5% return on your money so add another $50,000. So, after adding it all up $100 per hour may not be enough!

Just thinking out loud. You can tell I'm not an economist.
 
Economists are not equipped to figure this out... they don't run businesses.... so you're good! LOL

What you say in your 1st paragrpah is true about my local shop... I need to post a picture of the outside.... you'd think it was abandoned years ago, until you spot the newish Sunoco Race Fuel pumps and tank.. LOL. The one difference is there is no need to be so careful with electricity.... you live in the high tax NE. And you can build your own buildings here.

Business startups come in all sizes and approaches.. so your 2nd paragraph may be true or may not. What you describe is an investors'-like startup, but it can be done in other ways. I started my business small and built it up, and did things with used equipment and not getting the latest fancy stuff. I lot of it has to do with the owner's skills.... my local machinist, if he needs a tool, just grabs some tool steel and makes it. Cheaper and faster for him to get things done. Not everyone takes that approach, or is satisfied with just 'making a living'. The company up in the next county has the latest gee-whiz automated block machine.. costs a LOT to get a block square decked there for a walk-in customer.
 
I would think it would be hard to make a go in Canada at $100 an hour unless you are a one man shop with a lot of the equipment paid off...cheap rent in the city here is well over $10 a square foot plus fees,taxes electricity heat...plus it is likely hard to bill out more than 6 hours a day with all the other stuff you have to do...plus I notice the local machine shops always have stuff sitting that has not been paid for...sometimes for months
 
Hey guys. So I got my block and pistons back from the machine shop on Friday. Yesterday I started prepping the block following @krazykuda excellent build series and I found that the number 4 and number 5 cam bearings are turned in the block. The number 5 does not look too bad but it's difficult to see. The number 4 bearing is blocking approximately 30% of the oil feed hole up from the crank. I pretty much know the answer to this question already but is this a big deal? I actually had this happen in the past with the only other motor I ever took apart on a LA 360 and I wound up drilling up from the crankshaft through the cam bearing race and then I chamfered the bearing feed hole. I tried calling the shop today but got no answer. I will continue until I get ahold of him but what do you think about this?

Number 4
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Number 5
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JoePole1 said:
Hey guys. So I got my block and pistons back from the machine shop on Friday. Yesterday I started prepping the block following @krazykuda excellent build series and I found that the number 4 and number 5 cam bearings are turned in the block. The number 5 does not look too bad but it's difficult to see. The number 4 bearing is blocking approximately 30% of the oil feed hole up from the crank. I pretty much know the answer to this question already but is this a big deal? I actually had this happen in the past with the only other motor I ever took apart on a LA 360 and I wound up drilling up from the crankshaft through the cam bearing race and then I chamfered the bearing feed hole. I tried calling the shop today but got no answer. I will continue until I get ahold of him but what do you think about this?

Number 4
View attachment 1715512493
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Number 5
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You can run those on a street driver... we used to allow up to 50% overlap on the cam bearings...

If you are really worried, you can have them redo them and align the holes better... Keep in mind that every time they remove an install the bearings again, you loose a little bit of retention force for the bearing...
 
JoePole1 said:
I got a call from my machinist today. I dropped my block and new pistons off requesting a .030 bore and R&R pistons onto rods. Nothing more. I am picking it up Friday. He has had it about 10 months. I haven't been hounding due to other obligations but we spoke a few times and he gave me some updates after the fact while he had it. Here is what I got....

Block cleaning - subbed out of house. I degreased and cleaned block prior to dropping off.
Brass freeze and oil plugs.
Cam bearings. I am hoping he align honed but he asked me to bring my cam.
Prime and paint. Said he had to paint it prior to boring. He did ask what color I was going with.
Overbore with torque plate.

My bill is $850. We did not discuss cost (my fault, no lecture please) but I was expecting around $350 for my requested work. My number was from asking others about their projects. Needless to say this was supposed to be a budget build on a low mileage Magnum 360.
Between the cost of the block, machine work, pistons, rings and bearings I am close to the price of an assembled short block but I really want to build this mill myself.
Does this sound about right? What would you charge for the work that was done?
I would appreciate if you broke it down if possible.
Thank you.
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I don’t get the painting and crap. But for a block going to the shop:
Clean it (my shops wash then bake and/or airless shot) $250
Bore V8 (use CNC or BHJ plate so bores are blueprinted) $400
Torque plate hone $450
Re-wash block ( no further operations- just jetwash) N/C
Dismount pistons N/C
Resize rods w/good bolts $225 w/bolts
Balance assembly $450
Mount pistons to rods (presses pin) $75

So $1850 or so...
and yes new pistons should mean rebalancing.

I do my own cam bearings. That cam bearing install sucks. If I did that I’d be buying another set and doing it not so F’d up.
 
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JoePole1 said:
Hey guys. So I got my block and pistons back from the machine shop on Friday. Yesterday I started prepping the block following @krazykuda excellent build series and I found that the number 4 and number 5 cam bearings are turned in the block. The number 5 does not look too bad but it's difficult to see. The number 4 bearing is blocking approximately 30% of the oil feed hole up from the crank. I pretty much know the answer to this question already but is this a big deal? I actually had this happen in the past with the only other motor I ever took apart on a LA 360 and I wound up drilling up from the crankshaft through the cam bearing race and then I chamfered the bearing feed hole. I tried calling the shop today but got no answer. I will continue until I get ahold of him but what do you think about this?
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I'd do something on #4 as it feed the passenger side rocker shaft. Your drilling and chamfering solution seems fine as long as the stuff is caught.
 
dogbreath said:
Wow , 1975 360 block here . shot blast block , mag , torque bore and hone , square deck , install arp main studs and align hone , cut down main cap so stud and 12pt nut clears oil pump , brass freeze plugs , cam bearings , dist bushing , I supplied block and studs only . Beautiful work in the bag $450 cash . Everything checks perfect and it was done in a week . This is in Florida , same work in Maryland 5 years ago cost me $1100
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Where in Fl? I need to go there a few times a year, might be worthwhile to time a trip to coincide with some work I want done.
Your inbox is full, couldn't send you a PM.
 
It's been a about 2 years since I had any machine work done but my guy charged:
$250 to bore with deck plate
$120 to cook block
$250 to balance assembly
$200 to line bore
$175 to deck block
$600 to assemble engine
$100 extra for file fit rings
$75 to degree cam
$90 to mill heads
$40 to pressure check 1 head
 
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