Engine won't start

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65_Dart_GT

65_Dart_GT

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I failed to get the engine started today. Have a new alternator, starter and fuel pump installed on a 66 273 block just put into a 65 Dart. The horn, lights and signals all work but I have no Alternator (dummy light) when I turn the key to on. There is one wire in the wire harness that has a female spade connector bundled in the harness near the alternator. It is fairly long and I see no where it should connect. Is this the reason I can not start the engine? Is this something to do with the ignition? All other wires I managed to hook up by memory when I swapped the engine after the tranny was refreshed. Any help out there on my dilemma? I' m about 1 week away from abandoning the attempt to start till next year as it is getting to cold to work on the car at this point.
 
Thanks, I got that one as the purple wire no problem. I wonder if it is the sending unit near the distributor. But it does not take a spade connector ... still searching.:banghead:
powerwagonpaul said:
that long female spade connector could be for the temp sending unit
Click to expand...
 
powerwagonpaul said:
that long female spade connector could be for the temp sending unit
Click to expand...
I started to say the same thing, I have a 66 A body /6 and that is the only other wire traveling with that wire harness, two wires to the alternator and a longer one to the temp sending unit ( female 90 degree connector) was not sure because mine is not a V8 :glasses7:
 
I get a little shakey on the wiring of the early rigs. You have a shop manual/ wiring diagram?

Scroll down this thread, there's a link for a 66 shop manual:

http://www.forabodiesonly.com/mopar/showthread.php?t=132309&highlight=click+save

Here are some useable ones:

http://www.mymopar.com/downloads/1965/65DartA.jpg

http://www.mymopar.com/downloads/1965/65DartB.jpg


First, Mopars don't have an alternator light, just an oil light and ammeter Does your oil warning light come on? What color is the stray wire?

(Temp sender should be violet, oil sender should be gray)

Does the car crank but not fire, or not crank? Is it stick or automatic?

If automatic, the neutral safety switch is on the trans, has one wire comes up over the top of the trans and hooks to ONE of the two "push on" terminals of your starter relay.

Unhook ONE of the push on terminal wires on the start relay, hook your test lamp to first one, then the other, and turn the key to start, determine which wire is "hot" with key in "start."

HOOK THAT WIRE back up to either push on terminal.

Temporarily clip lead the opposite terminal to ground, and the engine should crank.

If it does, check out the wire to the neutral safety, the switch itself, or the trans shift linkage

IF not, and if the other wire to the 'push on' terminal is getting juice from the key "in start" then you may have a bad relay. Try jumpering across the two EXPOSED terminals of the relay, and see if the starter cranks.

According to diagram "B" the wire coming from the ign switch to the relay is black/ yellow, and the one to the neutral safety is brown

As far as the oil sender (near distributor) being different, it normally is either a flat spade or a "button head" and what LOOKS like a spade female actually slips over the "button head" horizontally
 
Yup, ends with a 90 degree push on connector to the temp sending unit. It was the same for the engine I took out. I just don't remember this other dang wire with the female spade connector.:banghead:

memike said:
I started to say the same thing, I have a 66 A body /6 and that is the only other wire traveling with that wire harness, two wires to the alternator and a longer one to the temp sending unit ( female 90 degree connector) was not sure because mine is not a V8 :glasses7:
Click to expand...
 
See my answers in Blue .... and thanks for the help!

67Dart273 said:
I get a little shakey on the wiring of the early rigs. You have a shop manual/ wiring diagram? I have a manual and all seems good

Scroll down this thread, there's a link for a 66 shop manual:

http://www.forabodiesonly.com/mopar/showthread.php?t=132309&highlight=click+save

Here are some useable ones:

http://www.mymopar.com/downloads/1965/65DartA.jpg

http://www.mymopar.com/downloads/1965/65DartB.jpg


First, Mopars don't have an alternator light, just an oil light and ammeter Does your oil warning light come on? What color is the stray wire? I stand corrected ... you are right of course. They do not come on

(Temp sender should be violet, oil sender should be gray) Temp sender is violet .. I don't see a grey wire

Does the car crank but not fire, or not crank? Is it stick or automatic? the car does not crank ... it is automatic

If automatic, the neutral safety switch is on the trans, has one wire comes up over the top of the trans and hooks to ONE of the two "push on" terminals of your starter relay. yes that is correct and I never removed it from the starter relay only from the transmission end. Cleaned and re-attached when tranny put back in

Unhook ONE of the push on terminal wires on the start relay, hook your test lamp to first one, then the other, and turn the key to start, determine which wire is "hot" with key in "start." I will try this

HOOK THAT WIRE back up to either push on terminal. Ok

Temporarily clip lead the opposite terminal to ground, and the engine should crank. will try and let you know

If it does, check out the wire to the neutral safety, the switch itself, or the trans shift linkage this catches my interest as I have not hooked up the tranny cables to the floor shifter as yet. not sure which one goes where. Perhaps this is the reason of no start.

IF not, and if the other wire to the 'push on' terminal is getting juice from the key "in start" then you may have a bad relay. Try jumpering across the two EXPOSED terminals of the relay, and see if the starter cranks. will try

According to diagram "B" the wire coming from the ign switch to the relay is black/ yellow, and the one to the neutral safety is brown and these seem to be correctly connected

As far as the oil sender (near distributor) being different, it normally is either a flat spade or a "button head" and what LOOKS like a spade female actually slips over the "button head" horizontally
Click to expand...
I'll look at this and also clean up this loose wire to identify the true color, it's a tad dirty
 
My oil sender had a spade connector on it. What color is the wire? Looky here for some '65 colors off the bulkhead connector..
harnesscolor.jpg
 
Thanks so much for all input to my wiring issues. The engine is now turning over and throwing fire balls out the carb and the manifolds!:blob: I suspect that by this weekend I might even get her to run. Well off to another thread.:burnout:

Thanks again!

65_Dart_GT said:
See my answers in Blue .... and thanks for the help!

I'll look at this and also clean up this loose wire to identify the true color, it's a tad dirty
Click to expand...
 
Well she is driving me crazy. I have her turning over coughing and spitting gas out the carb. Every once and a while (during cranking, she will spit fire out the carb. It seems she is so close to actually running that it must be a timing error on my part.

When I find no cylinder has pressure I then make sure the distributor has number 1 post facing towards number one cylinder and then just turn the distributor to a position that just opens the contacts. This seems to be the point that the engine near fires to run but just does not get it done.

I'm not a mechanic of any sort so I hope I am explaining my problem well enough for someone out there to guide me along. I figure tomorrow is my last warm enough day to get this done and then I put her to bed till warm spring shows up.:banghead:



65_Dart_GT said:
Thanks so much for all input to my wiring issues. The engine is now turning over and throwing fire balls out the carb and the manifolds!:blob: I suspect that by this weekend I might even get her to run. Well off to another thread.:burnout:

Thanks again!
Click to expand...
 
Very easy to static time an engine

1 IF the valve cover(s) are off, bring/ bump/ wrench the engine until the timing marks are NOT at TDC but rather where you think you want the timing. On a stock cam, maybe 8-10*BTC, with a little more cam, maybe 12-16*BTC,

Now look at either the no1 or no6 valves. If the no1 valves are both CLOSED, no1 is ready to fire, and drop the dist. in so the rotor points nearest to no1 plug tower. If both no6 are closed, drop the dist in so the rotor points to no6.

IF the valve covers on both on, do this: Remove no1 plug, stick your finger in, and bump the engine until you JUST start to feel compression. You might have to go 'round a couple of times to get the hang of it. AS SOON as you feel compression, pay attention to the timing marks which should be coming "up." Once again, carefully set the marks so that they represent the timing you think you want, as above

NEXT with the dist in (or out, actually) I ALWAYS scribe the top rim of the dist. to correspond with the no1 plug tower. Even a marker works. Now you can see where the rotor is in relation to no1.

So with the dist in, and you are able to position the dist housing so that no1 and the rotor are aligned, now RETARD the dist (cw on a sb) so that your points are closed. Turn on the ignition, and put a lamp across the neg. side of the coil. Slowly rotate the dist ADVANCED (ccw on a sb) until the lamp just lights

THIS IS the static timing point, and if you did this right, the engine should fire as if it was parked overnight.
 
If it is off by 180, you need to lift the whole dist and turn the rotor 180 degrees and then reinstall the dist.
One way to check if it`s off is to put your thumb in #1 sparkplug hole while turning the engine over by hand to feel the compression build up. The next time the timing mark show up on the damper is when you `ve got the #1 cylinder in ignition position, and the rotor should point towards #1 ignition
wire. Check this before you remove the dist.
Sorry, to slow on typing.....67Dart273 is way to fast for me.. :)
 
Remember the rotation of the dizzy is clockwise and you should have wires 18436572 in a clockwise manner (found that after I owned a big block for 8 years...). Manual suggests pointing dizzy toward alternator on TDC timing mark so the pot doesnt hit the firewall, but that is minor and depends on who dropped the oil pump drive in there. Belching flame is spark when an intake valve is open, check all valves as your is a solid lifter valvetrain. about half should be relaxed while the other are somewhat compressed. EZ way to figure that out is bump motor and watch valves, when the intake opens fully on any cylinder, the exhaust should be closed and "jiggle" loose. Same on the exhaust: when they just start to open, check the intake, should be closed and "jiggle" loose. Exhaust get a little more clearance than intakes. Itll run decent, safe but loud on loose rockers but not good at all on tight rockers.
 
I'll give this a go today. Thank you for typing it so clearly that even I think I understand. :prayer:

67Dart273 said:
Very easy to static time an engine

1 IF the valve cover(s) are off, bring/ bump/ wrench the engine until the timing marks are NOT at TDC but rather where you think you want the timing. On a stock cam, maybe 8-10*BTC, with a little more cam, maybe 12-16*BTC,

Now look at either the no1 or no6 valves. If the no1 valves are both CLOSED, no1 is ready to fire, and drop the dist. in so the rotor points nearest to no1 plug tower. If both no6 are closed, drop the dist in so the rotor points to no6.

IF the valve covers on both on, do this: Remove no1 plug, stick your finger in, and bump the engine until you JUST start to feel compression. You might have to go 'round a couple of times to get the hang of it. AS SOON as you feel compression, pay attention to the timing marks which should be coming "up." Once again, carefully set the marks so that they represent the timing you think you want, as above

NEXT with the dist in (or out, actually) I ALWAYS scribe the top rim of the dist. to correspond with the no1 plug tower. Even a marker works. Now you can see where the rotor is in relation to no1.

So with the dist in, and you are able to position the dist housing so that no1 and the rotor are aligned, now RETARD the dist (cw on a sb) so that your points are closed. Turn on the ignition, and put a lamp across the neg. side of the coil. Slowly rotate the dist ADVANCED (ccw on a sb) until the lamp just lights

THIS IS the static timing point, and if you did this right, the engine should fire as if it was parked overnight.
Click to expand...
 
Thank you, I appreciate the input. Going to have a look and try once agin today before I put her to sleep for the winter.:sleepy2:

pishta said:
Remember the rotation of the dizzy is clockwise and you should have wires 18436572 in a clockwise manner (found that after I owned a big block for 8 years...). Manual suggests pointing dizzy toward alternator on TDC timing mark so the pot doesnt hit the firewall, but that is minor and depends on who dropped the oil pump drive in there. Belching flame is spark when an intake valve is open, check all valves as your is a solid lifter valvetrain. about half should be relaxed while the other are somewhat compressed. EZ way to figure that out is bump motor and watch valves, when the intake opens fully on any cylinder, the exhaust should be closed and "jiggle" loose. Same on the exhaust: when they just start to open, check the intake, should be closed and "jiggle" loose. Exhaust get a little more clearance than intakes. Itll run decent, safe but loud on loose rockers but not good at all on tight rockers.
Click to expand...
 
Thanks for the info. Not sure I understand the marks on the damper position though. I have a mark on what I thought was the balancer which seems to come to a position at 9:00 (before the scale that shows marks one being 0 (zero). Not sure if I should be advancing this mark into the scale (timing marks?) before the 0 or after the 0. :banghead:

swedefish said:
If it is off by 180, you need to lift the whole dist and turn the rotor 180 degrees and then reinstall the dist.
One way to check if it`s off is to put your thumb in #1 sparkplug hole while turning the engine over by hand to feel the compression build up. The next time the timing mark show up on the damper is when you `ve got the #1 cylinder in ignition position, and the rotor should point towards #1 ignition
wire. Check this before you remove the dist.
Sorry, to slow on typing.....67Dart273 is way to fast for me.. :)
Click to expand...
 
65_Dart_GT said:
Thanks for the info. Not sure I understand the marks on the damper position though. I have a mark on what I thought was the balancer which seems to come to a position at 9:00 (before the scale that shows marks one being 0 (zero). Not sure if I should be advancing this mark into the scale (timing marks?) before the 0 or after the 0. :banghead:
Click to expand...

Is your engine "fer sure" all stock? By that, I mean, do you have a mix of late and early parts?

(Early SB had the water outlet on drivers side, timing marks on passenger side. Later switched sides. This means that if you have an early balancer/ late timing cover, OR late balancer, / early timing cover, you timing marks will not be correct.

ALSO balancers can SLIP the outer/ inner section so that the marks are wrong. It might be a good idea to check your timing marks, EASY to do

Either build or buy a piston stop, like this:

http://www.jerrybramlett.net/images/pic_installation.jpg

http://image.mustang50magazine.com/...+degree_four_valve_motor_cams+piston_stop.jpg

Remove the no1 plug, and make sure the piston is "down a ways". Look, flashlight, or check with bic pen, etc

Remove the battery ground for safety, and screw in the stop device.

Wrench the engine around until it stops against the device. You may have to play with length the first time, and you do NOT want the piston "at the top," but rather, "down a ways", so "longer is better."

When you reach this point, make a temporary mark onto the balancer directly under TDC on the timing tab

Now rotate the engine backwards, until it stops once again, and make a second mark

Your true TDC will be halfway between your temporary marks, and if the original is accurate, that is where it will be.

I found this video if you can stand the Ferd BS, and remember, what he's doing here, no1 on a Ferd is on the "wrong side"

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PD0ZRc7Dy28"]Timing - Part 3 - How To - Using a piston stop to find true #1 TDC.wmv - YouTube[/ame]
 
It is a mix. 1966 block, purple cam, 340 intake w/4 bbl on a 66 block - 273 v8.

I was not successful starting her this weekend. I think it worth my time to try your suggestion, Seems quite reasonable and I'll learn a bit more. Thank you. Won't get back to her till the week-end but I'll be sure to let you know how it goes once I make a stop and give it a wirl.:glasses7:

67Dart273 said:
Is your engine "fer sure" all stock? By that, I mean, do you have a mix of late and early parts?

(Early SB had the water outlet on drivers side, timing marks on passenger side. Later switched sides. This means that if you have an early balancer/ late timing cover, OR late balancer, / early timing cover, you timing marks will not be correct.

ALSO balancers can SLIP the outer/ inner section so that the marks are wrong. It might be a good idea to check your timing marks, EASY to do

Either build or buy a piston stop, like this:

http://www.jerrybramlett.net/images/pic_installation.jpg

http://image.mustang50magazine.com/...+degree_four_valve_motor_cams+piston_stop.jpg

Remove the no1 plug, and make sure the piston is "down a ways". Look, flashlight, or check with bic pen, etc

Remove the battery ground for safety, and screw in the stop device.

Wrench the engine around until it stops against the device. You may have to play with length the first time, and you do NOT want the piston "at the top," but rather, "down a ways", so "longer is better."

When you reach this point, make a temporary mark onto the balancer directly under TDC on the timing tab

Now rotate the engine backwards, until it stops once again, and make a second mark

Your true TDC will be halfway between your temporary marks, and if the original is accurate, that is where it will be.

I found this video if you can stand the Ferd BS, and remember, what he's doing here, no1 on a Ferd is on the "wrong side"

Timing - Part 3 - How To - Using a piston stop to find true #1 TDC.wmv - YouTube
Click to expand...
 
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