Exhaust Backfiring

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Rays69Cuda

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Hi. Driving me crazy. Put 5000 mile on my 340 this summer driving to the Dragon Tail then home for four days then off on the Power Tour. Car ran fine. Put the car on a chasy dyno in Dallas and made 301 HP with it 96° outside.. A guy I was running with looked at the Graff and told me a few things I could do to improve the numbers. He looked at my plugs also. He said check my timing. It was a little Advanced. Checked it it was! It was 38°. Have a MSD distributor and a AL6. Checked the advance and it should have been 25° but was more like 29. Changed the bussing got the timing to 12° @ 750 and 3400 all in @ 2200. Put a PVC valve on. Ran great for a while. Then moved the fuel filter from inches from my carb to the fender. Then trouble started. Would start up fine then backfire out the exhaust. power down. Ran like crap. Had a 750 Edelbrock on it. For the last two years. Figured I moved some dirt into the carb. Cleaned it ran good to a point???? Got pissed at the carb and put my 650 Street Demon on. More exhaust backfiring. This is getting long. Look for part two.
 
Hi. Driving me crazy. Put 5000 mile on my 340 this summer driving to the Dragon Tail then home for four days then off on the Power Tour. Car ran fine. Put the car on a chasy dyno in Dallas and made 301 HP with it 96° outside.. A guy I was running with looked at the Graff and told me a few things I could do to improve the numbers. He looked at my plugs also. He said check my timing. It was a little Advanced. Checked it it was! It was 38°. Have a MSD distributor and a AL6. Checked the advance and it should have been 25° but was more like 29. Changed the bussing got the timing to 12° @ 750 and 3400 all in @ 2200. Put a PVC valve on. Ran great for a while. Then moved the fuel filter from inches from my carb to the fender. Then trouble started. Would start up fine then backfire out the exhaust. power down. Ran like crap. Had a 750 Edelbrock on it. For the last two years. Figured I moved some dirt into the carb. Cleaned it ran good to a point???? Got pissed at the carb and put my 650 Street Demon on. More exhaust backfiring. This is getting long. Look for part two.
The total advice should have been 25° but was 29. So 10° at 750 was 39° total. Ran good. No backfiring. Good driving.
 
Have QF red Metering blocks on the 650 Demon. Stock Demon calls for 70/78 jets. I drilled and tapped the idle air restrictions. Stock # calls for a .070. have .069 in them. QF blocks have .031idle jets. Have a Edelbrock A/F gage and it reads 13-12.5. not bad but on the rich side. Runs good but backfiring out the exhaust when I hit the gas a little hard. So how can I get the A/F down. The Demon never backfired before. It has always ran rich. Is it timing? Need to go up to maybe 36° total? That is my next step.
 
how are your plug wires and cap, any tracks in there? You got the AF meter, why not get your AF up so its not rich? Is that AF while idle or under load. Are your transfer slots so small that they appear square? thats where they should be. Edelbrock AF is way easier to tune on the car with different rods and step up springs.
 
Thanks. Plug Gap is set to. 40 down from 45. That was a suggestion from the guy that looked at my plugs on the Power Tour. Been trying to get the A/F down. Guess that is my question. A/F at idle is 12.5 to 13. About the same as driving at 2000-2700 cruise. Guy at Holly told me that A/F are only good for idle and cruise reading.. I have the Demon on the car now. Did do a complete tare down on the 750 Edelbrock and cleaned it inside and out. It might fix everything if I put it back on but want to make the Demon work. Have good money in it & a 30 over 340 should run best with a 650 under 6000 RPM.
 
So exactly under what circumstance is this"backfire" happening.
WOT, idle, 30mph/high gear,accelerating,closed throttle decelerating, tip-in,roll on in first, when you slam the pedal down, etc.
So remind me; when was the last time it ran great. And why don't you start there?
Was it just before you changed the bushing and regapped the plugs? Italmost obviously wasn't the filter......
 
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So exactly under what circumstance is this"backfire" happening.
WOT, idle, 30mph/high gear,accelerating,closed throttle decelerating, tip-in,roll on in first, when you slam the pedal down, etc.
So remind me what was the first change you made that caused this "backfire" to happen?
Like at cruse at 35-45 then hit the gas hard. Not flooring it just hard. Or from a dead stop and hitting it hard. It will. Want to get this stopped before I floor it.
 
So exactly under what circumstance is this"backfire" happening.
WOT, idle, 30mph/high gear,accelerating,closed throttle decelerating, tip-in,roll on in first, when you slam the pedal down, etc.
So remind me; when was the last time it ran great. And why don't you start there?
Was it just before you changed the bushing and regapped the plugs? Italmost obviously wasn't the filter......
It was after moving the filter. I did find a flake of something on the passenger side needle. Cleaned it. Checked the float levels. Put it back on the car. Drove it 70 miles to Detroit ran OK. Then it started doing the same things. ??? So I took the Edelbrock off and put the Demon on. It always ran rich but never backfired. Do have MagniFlow mufflers on it now and they have a glass rapping in them that might soak up in burnt gas more than the Flow Masters I have on the car last time the Demon was on the car. Guess the question should be how can I lean out the Demon? I replaced the stock Metering blocks with the QF's to have versatility.
 
Going to put in a set of .071 restrictions in the top of the carb. In the morning. That is the largest I have. That should let a little more air into the idle circuit and lean it out a little. The other option is change the .031 restriction on the metering blocks to .029.. That is the smallest I have. A little knowledge is a dangerous thing.
 
Since the backfiring started after moving the fuel filter to the fender from inches from the carb, have you tried moving the fuel filter back to a few inches from the carb and see what happens???
 
Since the backfiring started after moving the fuel filter to the fender from inches from the carb, have you tried moving the fuel filter back to a few inches from the carb and see what happens???
Didn't think about that. The cooler the fuel the more dens the richer the charge. Where the filter was before was right over the Vale cover. I also made a heat shield for under the carb. With my spacer and the shield the fuel bowls are now 20° cooler than my intake. That will make things richer. Right?
 
Didn't think about that. The cooler the fuel the more dens the richer the charge. Where the filter was before was right over the Vale cover. I also made a heat shield for under the carb. With my spacer and the shield the fuel bowls are now 20° cooler than my intake. That will make things richer. Right?
I also rapped the fuel line and filter to keep heat away. Just doing lots of little things you wold find on a race car. I don't care much, how it looks under the hood, just want to get everything out of what is there. But all this would make it richer. I quess.
 
Didn't think about that. The cooler the fuel the more dens the richer the charge. Where the filter was before was right over the Vale cover. I also made a heat shield for under the carb. With my spacer and the shield the fuel bowls are now 20° cooler than my intake. That will make things richer. Right?

The longer the fuel line, the more potential for it to absorb heat... I would make the line go from the fuel pump to the carb, with the filter somewhere between the fuel pump and the carb, not before the pump...

If you are worried about heat, then use a plastic fuel filter vs the metal "tin can" one... I also run the 5/16" thick carb gasket to help keep the fuel from boiling...

I think your comment on the cooler the fuel, the more dense the charge, is slightly off... The cooler the Air charge, the denser the mixture... I would think that a little heat in the fuel will help atomize/vaporize it in the air (as long as you don't get into vapor lock)... Since the air is roughly 14:1 ratio, the air temp is more of an influence on the incoming charge temp than the fuel...
 
2 different carbs and other tuning changes and the same intermittent issue, both too fast too much pump shot? At one point the demon was screamin'. All in @ 2200 seems too fast a curve, but you said it had run fine there. Ignition boxes can act stupid and random when they're on their way out. Running a little fat can create some exhaust popping, not normally a muffler hand grenade case splitting backfire(?), but a sticking valve, or raw gas could. Give the engine what it wants, some like 38-40 or the ring has slipped, and the timing is still late. But the plug read, and where's Mark? And like stated,go back in time to the setup before the hold harmless for the dyno run.
But I'm really thinking it could be the rise time on the coil because it seems to happen during a call for acceleration, no? And back to the ignition box again we go. Heat soak or not?
 
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how are your plug wires and cap, any tracks in there? You got the AF meter, why not get your AF up so its not rich? Is that AF while idle or under load. Are your transfer slots so small that they appear square? thats where they should be. Edelbrock AF is way easier to tune on the car with different rods and step up springs.
how are your plug wires and cap, any tracks in there? You got the AF meter, why not get your AF up so its not rich? Is that AF while idle or under load. Are your transfer slots so small that they appear square? thats where they should be. Edelbrock AF is way easier to tune on the car with different rods and step up springs.
Plug wires are good no sign of tracking in the cap. It might be time for a new cap and rotor. They are a couple of years old. Want to replace my AL6 with a new AL6-2 eventually.
Put a set of Doug's headers on this spring and the pipes are nicely out of the way of all plug wires. Plus I rap the pipes with Lava Tape. Good stuff.
 
The longer the fuel line, the more potential for it to absorb heat... I would make the line go from the fuel pump to the carb, with the filter somewhere between the fuel pump and the carb, not before the pump...

If you are worried about heat, then use a plastic fuel filter vs the metal "tin can" one... I also run the 5/16" thick carb gasket to help keep the fuel from boiling...

I think your comment on the cooler the fuel, the more dense the charge, is slightly off... The cooler the Air charge, the denser the mixture... I would think that a little heat in the fuel will help atomize/vaporize it in the air (as long as you don't get into vapor lock)... Since the air is roughly 14:1 ratio, the air temp is more of an influence on the incoming charge temp than the fuel...
Thanks for the thought. Have an Edelbrock electronic fuel pump with new 3/8 branded black line with AN fitting from the back of the car to the front of the car. Have it regulated to 6 psi. Then the line to the car with the filter in it. A plastic filter is a good idea. The intake is a Edelbrock Air Gap. Shot it with an IR gun that shows 145° as t the top of the plenum. Have a one inch fiber spacer, with the heat shield above that, right below the carb. I made it to fit the Demon. This brought the carb temp down by reducing radiator air hitting the carb. Have a Mr Fiberglass hood and four inch Hemi scoop built into it. Use a four inch K&M air cleaner with the K&M extreme breather top. Air coming into the cab is as cool as you can get. Have had the car for over thirty years with that hood setup. Never had this backfiring before. ??? Keep floating ideas to me. I am missing something. The fuel level in on the sight glass is just below center. The Demon bowls have three lines cast into the bowl so you can see the difference a quicky. Lower bowl makes a learner mixture. Have played with that a little. But want to keep one thing constant. It is were the manual calls for it to be.
 
So exactly under what circumstance is this"backfire" happening.
WOT, idle, 30mph/high gear,accelerating,closed throttle decelerating, tip-in,roll on in first, when you slam the pedal down, etc.
So remind me; when was the last time it ran great. And why don't you start there?
Was it just before you changed the bushing and regapped the plugs? Italmost obviously wasn't the filter......
Started with the filter change and crap on the needle and seat. Cleaned it twice. Before I switched carbs. Going to switch back to to the Edelbrock carb. I tore it completely apart and cleaned every part inside and out. But want to make the Demon work. Should put the Edelbrock 750 back on to prove that it is the Demo carb.
 
Started with the filter change and crap on the needle and seat. Cleaned it twice. Before I switched carbs. Going to switch back to to the Edelbrock carb. I tore it completely apart and cleaned every part inside and out. But want to make the Demon work. Should put the Edelbrock 750 back on to prove that it is the Demo carb.
Backfires out the exhaust when cruising in drive and then pushing hard on the gas. Or a dead stop and a little after you get going can't tell you what rpm. It moves too fast. Have a 2800 stall converter in it so it flashes up quickly. 904 trans with the low first gear and $2000 worth of A-1 trans parts in it. Light weight drums. new input and output shafts, with bearings. Timing is all in by 2200 rpm. If my VDO tack is right.
 
Backfires out the exhaust when cruising in drive and then pushing hard on the gas. Or a dead stop and a little after you get going can't tell you what rpm. It moves too fast. Have a 2800 stall converter in it so it flashes up quickly. 904 trans with the low first gear and $2000 worth of A-1 trans parts in it. Light weight drums. new input and output shafts, with bearings. Timing is all in by 2200 rpm. If my VDO tack is right.
IMG_20160623_244635734.jpg
here is the car.
 
So it's not a backfire;it's an afterfire.
Afterfire is usually an A/F charge in the header catching on fire and burning in the pipe. This type of phonemenon, cannot normally be felt by the driver, as originating in the engine cuz she is not bothered by it. There is no hesitation, or bog, or engine response whatsoever. It just pops a few times or even just once, and then it is business as usual.If this sounds like what yours is doing, you have to figure out how the unburned fuel-charge is accumulating in the header pipes, and how it is being lit off.
Being lit off is usually easier to figure out.Remembering that it is an ignitable mixture in there, that means both fuel and AIR is accumulating there. So either it is a complete A/F charge getting in there from; A) a chamber that did not burn it, or B) it is a fuel charge that did not finish burning in the chamber,before the exhaust valve opened and let it out, or C) one or more, to all the cylinders are dumping a tiny bit of unburned mixture into the pipes , where it accumulates downstream of the collector, finds atmospheric air there, and boom!
So what you may be looking for, since it always happens with a tip-in(The source of the fuel), is late ignition timing(the source of the ignition) AND atmospheric air (the air source)getting into the header, some place close to the exhaust port. It could also be an exhaust valve not fully closing(the ignition source)
So the first thing I would do is probably see how the engine responds to more ignition timing, in an effort to getting all the fuel charge burned,in the chamber( or possibly less, if it is already over-advanced). I would also be looking for how fresh air might be getting into the exhaust system, and finally if those fail. I would do a compression test, and probably a leakdown test too if the compression test looked sketchy.

FWIW
I have seen this happen at lower steady state cruising rpms;with a Vcan pulling timing in,(as it is supposed to), But not dropping out fast enough when the throttle was tipped in.The proof was disconnecting it, and no more afterfire. Then a re-engineering of the timing systems, cured it.
I have also seen it with a burned exhaust valve, (which did idle a bit rough, but hard to tell the difference with a bit of a cam),that ran fine in a throttled steady state. But when the throttle was slammed open, the cylinder pressure blew a portion of the charge into the exhaust port, and my take was the that when the ignition hit, it also lit off that portion, and Pow!
I have also also seen it where the ignition crossfired in the cap, due to an error in rotor-phasing. Also seen crossfiring in cheap,too closely running ignition cables .
These are all afterfires, and NOT backfires, which is a whole nuther story.
 
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So it's not a backfire;it's an afterfire.
Afterfire is usually an A/F charge in the header catching on fire and burning in the pipe. This type of phonemenon, cannot normally be felt by the driver, as originating in the engine cuz she is not bothered by it. There is no hesitation, or bog, or engine response whatsoever. It just pops a few times or even just once, and then it is business as usual.If this sounds like what yours is doing, you have to figure out how the unburned fuel-charge is accumulating in the header pipes, and how it is being lit off.
Being lit off is usually easier to figure out.Remembering that it is an ignitable mixture in there, that means both fuel and AIR is accumulating there. So either it is a complete A/F charge getting in there from; A) a chamber that did not burn it, or B) it is a fuel charge that did not finish burning in the chamber,before the exhaust valve opened and let it out, or C) one or more, to all the cylinders are dumping a tiny bit of unburned mixture into the pipes , where it accumulates downstream of the collector, finds atmospheric air there, and boom!
So what you may be looking for, since it always happens with a tip-in(The source of the fuel), is late ignition timing(the source of the ignition) AND atmospheric air (the air source)getting into the header, some place close to the exhaust port. It could also be an exhaust valve not fully closing(the ignition source)
So the first thing I would do is probably see how the engine responds to more ignition timing, in an effort to getting all the fuel charge burned,in the chamber( or possibly less, if it is already over-advanced). I would also be looking for how fresh air might be getting into the exhaust system, and finally if those fail. I would do a compression test, and probably a leakdown test too if the compression test looked sketchy.

FWIW
I have seen this happen at lower steady state cruising rpms;with a Vcan pulling timing in,(as it is supposed to), But not dropping out fast enough when the throttle was tipped in.The proof was disconnecting it, and no more afterfire. Then a re-engineering of the timing systems, cured it.
I have also seen it with a burned exhaust valve, (which did idle a bit rough, but hard to tell the difference with a bit of a cam),that ran fine in a throttled steady state. But when the throttle was slammed open, the cylinder pressure blew a portion of the charge into the exhaust port, and my take was the that when the ignition hit, it also lit off that portion, and Pow!
I have also also seen it where the ignition crossfired in the cap, due to an error in rotor-phasing. Also seen crossfiring in cheap,too closely running ignition cables .
These are all afterfires, and NOT backfires, which is a whole nuther story.
Thank you lots of good info. Today I put the jetting in the 650 Demon just one jet smaller than stock. Idle fuel restriction from a .031 to a .029... still looking.. so went from a .069 idle air to a .073. didn't run well. So said what the hell put in .055s. not good. Then .069s. better. But??? So, I had not read your post before doing these things. Took a brake came back with my timing light. At 900 rpm it was 4° ..Put the .069s back in, set the timing to 10° @ 900 after starting the car. Have 35° total. Took the car driving about ten miles doing 40 in third and pushing quickly to 60 a couple of times. No popping. . Dead stop to 70 quickly popped when I shifted to third. Happy. Don't know how the timing got backed down. Everything was tight. Have notes as to when I set it last. ??? Strange. Still not happy with the performance. My exhaust is a shot pipe (2.5") off the collector (3") to a short braided flex pipe the a couple of feet of straight pipe into 2.5" MagniFlow then a 90° turn out in front of the rear tires on both sides. So I hear the pop no matter how small. . But timing was a big problem here. So I am going to check compression and re-do lifer adjustment, then check it again. Have Hugh's lifers and rockers. They call for .090 lifter adjustment.. That comes to 1.5 turns offer setting 0 lash. Seem like a lot. Roller on the rockers are dead nut on the valve stems. Push rods spin around when cranking the motor. But going to reset O lash then add one turn, check compression again and compare before and after. Then just drive a while and see how it feels and if all the popping goes away. Thank you again. Something is lighting the unspent vapor. Headers are heat tap rapped to the collectors. Vapor could be building I'm the packing in the MagniFlows or the flex pipe. The flex pipe on the driver's side is only about a foot from the collector. On the passenger side it is a little more than two foot back. Will double check for leaks to the muffler's. God this is so much fun with it 90° out and my wife is having a garage sale! I have to work at the end of or drive or in the yard under a shade tree. Hmmm??
 
Thank you lots of good info. Today I put the jetting in the 650 Demon just one jet smaller than stock. Idle fuel restriction from a .031 to a .029... still looking.. so went from a .069 idle air to a .073. didn't run well. So said what the hell put in .055s. not good. Then .069s. better. But??? So, I had not read your post before doing these things. Took a brake came back with my timing light. At 900 rpm it was 4° ..Put the .069s back in, set the timing to 10° @ 900 after starting the car. Have 35° total. Took the car driving about ten miles doing 40 in third and pushing quickly to 60 a couple of times. No popping. . Dead stop to 70 quickly popped when I shifted to third. Happy. Don't know how the timing got backed down. Everything was tight. Have notes as to when I set it last. ??? Strange. Still not happy with the performance. My exhaust is a shot pipe (2.5") off the collector (3") to a short braided flex pipe the a couple of feet of straight pipe into 2.5" MagniFlow then a 90° turn out in front of the rear tires on both sides. So I hear the pop no matter how small. . But timing was a big problem here. So I am going to check compression and re-do lifer adjustment, then check it again. Have Hugh's lifers and rockers. They call for .090 lifter adjustment.. That comes to 1.5 turns offer setting 0 lash. Seem like a lot. Roller on the rockers are dead nut on the valve stems. Push rods spin around when cranking the motor. But going to reset O lash then add one turn, check compression again and compare before and after. Then just drive a while and see how it feels and if all the popping goes away. Thank you again. Something is lighting the unspent vapor. Headers are heat tap rapped to the collectors. Vapor could be building I'm the packing in the MagniFlows or the flex pipe. The flex pipe on the driver's side is only about a foot from the collector. On the passenger side it is a little more than two foot back. Will double check for leaks to the muffler's. God this is so much fun with it 90° out and my wife is having a garage sale! I have to work at the end of or drive or in the yard under a shade tree. Hmmm??
Here is my cam sheet. Like the way the car was running the first 5000 miles this year. It was sweet on the Dragon's Tail. Just put it in second and drove through all 310 corners up the mountain. Need to get it back to that setup.
 
2 different carbs and other tuning changes and the same intermittent issue, both too fast too much pump shot? At one point the demon was screamin'. All in @ 2200 seems too fast a curve, but you said it had run fine there. Ignition boxes can act stupid and random when they're on their way out. Running a little fat can create some exhaust popping, not normally a muffler hand grenade case splitting backfire(?), but a sticking valve, or raw gas could. Give the engine what it wants, some like 38-40 or the ring has slipped, and the timing is still late. But the plug read, and where's Mark? And like stated,go back in time to the setup before the hold harmless for the dyno run.
But I'm really thinking it could be the rise time on the coil because it seems to happen during a call for acceleration, no? And back to the ignition box again we go. Heat soak or not?
I did tighten up the advance. Would have to look at my notes. But the bushing in the distributor that should have been 21° was 24°. Changed to a black bushing that should have been 18 but is 20° that but left the springs that have been in it the car for 15 years. It ran great for a time. Don't know if I trust my tacomitor. With the signal coming from my old AL6. But can try a spring change. It only takes a minute. Worth a try.
 
So exactly under what circumstance is this"backfire" happening.
WOT, idle, 30mph/high gear,accelerating,closed throttle decelerating, tip-in,roll on in first, when you slam the pedal down, etc.
So remind me; when was the last time it ran great. And why don't you start there?
Was it just before you changed the bushing and regapped the plugs? Italmost obviously wasn't the filter......
Turned out to have been the spark plugs were trashed. Went back to copper NKG's and 95% of the popping Wass gone. I found more will post it all at the end of this thread.
 
Here is what fixed it for me. Changed my spark plug's back to copper NKG's. Gaped st .40" . Have Silver ones on back order. Had NKG G-Powet Platinum 7090's in. I made the mistake of gaping them. If you buy the don't touch the just put them in and hope for the best. Found YouTube videos as why with a after market ignition in older engines you don't want to use this kind of plugs. That change fixed 95% of the popping. The final fix was the butterflys on the secondary were closed too far. The idle slot was blocked off. Don't know when I did that. It had to of been years ago. Probably why I ended up removing the 650 Speed Demon. Anyway I set the Secondary the same as the primary. I have QF Red Metering blocks in the Demon so I set them back to stock and the idle air bleeds. Also jetted it the same as the QF 650 Q Street. It is running fantastic. I think I screwed the carb up trying to adjust the Choke idle. Moved the wrong screw. Big mistake. Thank everyone for the tips. They did give me lots of ideas.
 
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