Extra hp out of my 340.

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None of what I posted was direct at you... If you took it that way, sorry about that. Hate that article because it provides false expectations to the many out there that take it as gospel.

Headers are good in most cases along with a good intake, no doubt about it. No kidding dynos are tuning tools. Plenty of sunshine pumping dynos out there. I showed a friend how to change correction factors with humidifier!

The deltas are OK. The numbers after cam change, not so much! Build that engine and run it at the track, won't be close to the claimed hp... :) It's BS any way you cut it and proved at the track many times where the REAL numbers get revealed!
 
If you are not a streeter, you can skip right over this post. But
if you are a streeter, then,in my experience;
Having fun with a streeter doesn't take a lot of motor. But
With a stick-car,the engine is locked to the speed,
and so,having the right gear, at the right time, and having traction are far more important, IMO, than absolute power, at some way-up-there rpm, that you don't get to until 40 or more mph..There's a lot to be said for bottom end engine torque, or TM, (Torque Multiplication). 340 hp with iron heads is a pretty good number to have fun with. But Ima thinking those 3.23s gotta go; they just lock your manual trans equipped 340 into an operating range that she may be a little unhappy at, especially once you get into second gear.
>For example, 30 mph in 1.92 second with 27s is about 2300rpm, and no NA-SBM is excited to pull from there, especially one with a cam that unlocks 340hp. By 40mph,the engine is still only at about 3100, and by 50, its finally approaching the fat part of the torque band at 3800.
>So, at speeds below 32mph, you will always be wanting to downshift.......unless it just blows the tires off then........in which case you'll want to fix that first. In this case, more power is not the answer, cuz more power just makes more wheelspin.The real problem is the actual amount of power being delivered to the road,at zero to 40 mph;. not the amount of power at 5000 or 5500.
With a stick-car, there is no slip in a fluid coupling nor TM in the TC.
This means at low speeds,until about 35/40 mph in first gear, if the tires ain't spinning, the engine needs big torque at those low rpms that the 3.23s are locking you into.
There are a couple of ways to achieve this. A stroker was mentioned already. Then there's decamming it. Or swapping to an automatic. Or the simplest and cheapest is TM.
Or some combination of these.
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I found the solution to that problem in my combo, allbeit I started with a 3.58 stroke.
I took a bunch of cam out, swapped to a 3.09 low gear, and went to 3.55s. Now I have torque practically right off idle. NOW, by 30mph,in second gear the engine is doing 2540 rpm , that's 250rpm higher than 3.23s and a small-cam 360 makes pretty good torque there already.
But the bigger deal was the 3.09 low gearset. Now on the downshift, into first, the Rs climb to 4100 instead of 3500, and that's a whole nuther engine.
I dropped three cam sizes. And gained a mountain of low rpm performance.
The 3.09 is worth 16%TM , and the 3.55s are worth 9.9%
Just these two alone are worth 26% more TM and it works ALL thru first gear, from idle to shift-rpm, and the 3.55s continue thru every gear..
>If you decide to go to alloys, they will fatten up your midrange too, if you keep the cylinder pressure up. And for a streeter, IMO are worth more to me than 1or even 2 cam sizes.
Also if you go to alloys AND get the pressure up, you'd want to do that first. And the reason is because the engine's torque is gonna jump right up, and maybe you'll find the existing TM tolerable.
IMO......To get the most value from alloys, you want to get the pressure up to 180 or more.Some here on FABO have mentioned that they are running over 200psi on pump gas. I myself have run up to 190psi, and up to 11.3 Scr,in three different iterations of the same engine, all on 87E10. This gas is (R+M)/2, or equivalent to less than your 95RON, so far as I have been able to determine.
>If you put alloys on a 9.5 or even a 10.0-Scr engine, you will likely be disappointed, until the Rs get up there.
I would do whatever it takes to get the pressure up there, or I wouldn't do it at all.......in a streeter.

When you had it dyno'd, did you have headers on it?
I think this is a very important question, because you said it seemed to be a very strong engine. This usually points to a well engineered combo, that often includes a bigger cam. The bigger cam often has a lot of overlap, and the overlap period works best with headers and a free-flowing exhaust. There's quite a bit of power to be had in that overlap, that more or less gets stifled with log-manifolds. So that should be your first change,IMO.

Welcome to HotRodding
 
Wow! 340 at the crank with iron heads and stock exhaust manifolds. Leave that engine alone and think about changing the gear set.
 
G'day All,
Thanks very much for your comments. I live in the country so the car does a bit of driving at 100k/hr. That's what's good about the 3.23 diff ratio. I don't think one jump up to 3.55 I wouldn't notice. I think the next size up is 3.7's. Would that make a diff off the mark with the below mods. Don't really want to touch the motor so I'll probably just go extractors & alloy inlet manifold for now, then some alloy heads later. Also the 340 had a HP Holley DP on it when I bought it. Made the mistake & took it off & put on a 680 Holley vac sec street avenger. I'll be putting the DP back on as it made the motor that bit more responsive. Don't care about burning more whole $$ as I only do about 5000 km's a year in the Demon. At the end of the day would like to get 400hp at the fly.
Cheers,
Glenn.
 
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G'day All,
Thanks very much for your comments. I live in the country so the car does a bit of driving at 100k/hr. That's what's good about the 3.23 diff ratio. I don't think one jump up to 3.55 I wouldn't notice. I think the next size up is 3.7's. Would that make a diff off the mark with the below mods. Don't really want to touch the motor so I'll probably just go extractors & alloy inlet manifold for now, then some alloy heads later. Also the 340 had a HP Holley DP on it when I bought it. Made the mistake & took it off & put on a 680 Holley vac sec street avenger. I'll be putting the DP back on as it made the motor that bit more responsive. Don't care about burning more whole $$ as I only do about 5000 km's a year in the Demon. At the end of the day would like to get 400hp at the fly.
Cheers,
Glenn.

that's what some people say, but it's 9.9%! And it starts at zero mph and continues until you run out of revs or speed. It fattens up your on-road power right from the time you slip the clutch out. It's similar to having 10% more power, or a 10% bigger engine.
But I totally get the attractiveness of the 3.23s at hiway speed. I drove thousands of miles with 3.55s and small tires, at 65=3000rpm. Overdrive is better, at 65=2240rpm .
The headers are a good choice, as they too can fatten up the entire rev range.
The intake is more of a tuning tool. You can get them to change the powerband, or move it, and they work best when matched to the cam.
 
AJ is spot on this one.

Glenn, have you considered a turbocharger? The beauty of a turbo is great highway drivability by being able to keep higher ring gears like you have combined with plenty of power from the turbo - only when you need it. I doubt it would work on your 340 - too much static compression. However, a stock 318 is turbo-ready in many ways.
 
If you're already at 340hp, without headers and without an alloy intake, then it would seem someone has spent a lot of time on your heads. It would seem a shame to take them off.
So in that case, it makes getting 400 a little tougher, and probably the end result will be a much worse combo. With headers and a matched intake, it would still take a cam in the neighborhood of 2 sizes bigger than the current one to hit the 400. And it already takes a big cam to make 340 without headers and intake.
So the bottom line is that the new combo, with bigger cam and resultant lost cylinder pressure,will give up a lot of bottom-end torque, and turn your current strong bottom end into a bit of a doughy goo. The 3.23s would have to go, unless you don't mind slipping the clutch out to an extra long ways. But in that case, you're gonna need to think about the clutch.
From experience, I can tell you that 400hp wants a starter of between 10 and 11:1, and that is about 3.91 to 4.10s with your 2.66 low gear.
So, how's that expression go?..... It would be kindof like cutting off your nose to spite your face.

I solved my problem with a GVOD, and a SMALLER cam. I ran 3.91s and .78od;problem solved.
For you; 3.91/3.23= plus21% more starter gear, and
3.91x.78od would be equivalent to a 3.05 final drive, which being 5.6% less than your 3.23s; 65mph would be 2460rpm with 27" tires,versus, 2610 with 3.23s

Yeah, I know, big coin. But I've got maybe 115,000 on that unit now, so in the end it was the right decision for me. That car used to be my DD,Daily Driver.
 
Did I miss how the OP knows it's 340 crank HP? Did he dyno the engine before installation or are the numbers extrapolated off a wheel dyno?
 
post #1,lol
Hi All,
I've got a 71 Dodge Demon 340. Don't know what's been done to the motor as it was rebuilt before I bought it. Seems very strong though & with maybe 10,000 miles on it. We put it on the dyno recently & it's getting 340 hp at the flywheel. I would like to get some extra hp without tearing down the motor. Has no after market mods on it besides a 670 holley street avenger. Was looking at doing the following -
1. Alloy Heads
2. Dual plane alloy intake manifold &
3. Headers (or as we call them here in Aust. extractors).
Not sure about a cam change as I don't want to sacrifice torque which it's got plenty of.
With the alloy heads I would like them to fit under the factory rocker covers. I will also paint the inlet manifold the hemi orange. Trying to keep the engine bay as original as possible.
If I do the above what hp increase would I see?
Cheers,
Glenn.
 
Wow thanks AJ, might look at changing the gears to 3.55. Surely the extractors would help on their own. They say on average you get 10% more hp straight away. So that's 35hp, up to 375, only 25 more to go. Would changing back to the double pumper carby gain me some extra hp?
Below are 3 x pics. All I have on the motor was this cam card from when it was rebuilt in 2010. The other pic with basic stuff & the dyno sheet from when I bought the car.
I know the basics with how V8's work but my mechanical knowledge with lift & duration is limited. I was told the cam in my 340 is fairly mild.

Cam card 001.JPG


Cam card 002.JPG
 
Sorry here's the dyno sheet. I came to actually 335 flywheel hp by 252hp at the rear wheels x .33% they say you lose through your driveline. 252 + 83 = 335. Is this correct?

Cam card 003.JPG


Cam card 003.JPG
 
3.23’s to 3.55’s aren’t much in the seat of my he pants feel no matter who comes up with what number.

However, combined with everything else, it’s going to feel good.
 
Sorry here's the dyno sheet. I came to actually 335 flywheel hp by 252hp at the rear wheels x .33% they say you lose through your driveline. 252 + 83 = 335. Is this correct?

View attachment 1715138357

View attachment 1715138358


That's why I asked. 252 at the wheels is 302 HP at the flywheel.

Unless you have something totally whacked out, you only lose 20% through the water pump, fan and drivetrain. No way in hell is it 33%.
 
That's why I asked. 252 at the wheels is 302 HP at the flywheel.

Unless you have something totally whacked out, you only lose 20% through the water pump, fan and drivetrain. No way in hell is it 33%.
Thanks mate I've been misinformed.
 
3.23’s to 3.55’s aren’t much in the seat of my he pants feel no matter who comes up with what number.

However, combined with everything else, it’s going to feel good.
Yeah maybe I'll go to 3.7's.
 
That's why I asked. 252 at the wheels is 302 HP at the flywheel.

Unless you have something totally whacked out, you only lose 20% through the water pump, fan and drivetrain. No way in hell is it 33%.
What about the converters efficiency and what trans is being used in conjunction with its the already mentioned parasitic losses?
 
What about the converters efficiency and what trans is being used in conjunction with its the already mentioned parasitic losses?


Very little difference. The worst I've ever measured was 22%. Most sticks are ~18 and most autos are about 20. You get the odd duck every now and then but there is usually an issue. Had one down on power and then it spit the ring gear out. It ate itself.
 
Now that much on top of the water pump, Alt., etc...

You know what! It doesn’t matter because he got what he got and that’s all that matters because splitting hairs and picking on the numbers is meaningless dyno battle. It means chit.
 
How can a dyno operator come up with random correction numbers? You’d think there would be a correction factor table based on specific components the vehicle has that you would add up. Maybe that’s what they do, I dunno, I only operate turboprop test cells, not auto. A 3*F miscalculation in temp means a 1% power efficiency inaccuracy here - about 250 in. lbs. torque.

340 has 9-1 compression and the pistons are in the hole? Turbocharger sounds better and better.
 
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There are several different correction formulas and programs. They all show a slight variance against each other.

When someone says there car dyno’d *** on the treadmill, then I just take it that it was at least calibrated correctly and recently.

I’m not going to split hairs and not pick on everything endlessly. It’s to easy and it is really just being a dick about matters.
 
Okay. That's makes more sense. My car is built about the same as the OP's and I know its now where near the 340 crankshaft power he claimed.
On hux340's car a gear set change and headers with a 2 1/2 inch exhaust will feel like a new car.
 
The jump to 3.55 gears and a well designed set of extracters with the right length collecter extensions will help a lot. I would be looking for 1 5/8 tubes, add at least 12 inch extensions to 3 inch collecters, and if possible an expansion chamber behind them to make the whole system think there are no mufflers or tail pipes.
 
Now that we've seen the cam info - it really needs headers if you're looking for more out of it. And you want ones that will protect the bottom end - so its TTIs or custom.
Also Measure the timing curve - the whole thing. Next time on the dyno, log AFR. Get all your baseline info since its a reasonably well setup package now.
If the WOT fuel curve is flat then play with jetting. If its not, air bleeds. Then you can mess with highway driving jetting and dial the thing in, if there is any more dialing to do. I'm talking about the DP here since its your better baseline.

3.23’s to 3.55’s aren’t much in the seat of my he pants feel no matter who comes up with what number.

However, combined with everything else, it’s going to feel good.
Tire size makes a difference. When I go to the drag strip with with my 24" autocross (really road race) tires it noticible difference over my taller street tires. using 3.23 SG

You know what! It doesn’t matter because he got what he got and that’s all that matters because splitting hairs and picking on the numbers is meaningless dyno battle. It means chit.
Well exactly! And the off-the-line feel is a world apart from top end feel. Improving the top end is only felt when at the strip - and won't deny its a great feeling when you can feel it pulling hard from 3000 or 4000 rpm to the top... But I've also learned it hasn't helped in the range I need most - because I autocross much more and thats where I want to be competitive. Everyone has their own goals - mine are a little different than typical mopar enthusiast. Not suggesting do like me. lol

How can a dyno operator come up with random correction numbers?
Dynojet's software has input for temperature and humidity. From that you can select output in something like 5 different Hp ratings; SAE, Std, etc.
 
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