Finally, got my 5.9 Dart to the track. It went well, then it went to hell.

[POS Dakota]

What's the lift on that cam?
It's probably too much lift for the stock rockers.
Either get a new set of stud rockers and guideplates with HARDENED pushrods, or try shimming the rockers up a tad.

The stock non-adjustable rockers will only do so much lift.

What was the lift? I almost guarantee the lift is the issue.

 

[LXguy]

Thanks guys!

These heads were set up for the 1.6 rockers. The springs don't coil bind till .620

Cam is 224/230 .533/.544. There's a mile of clearance to the guides.

After this I'm done with the stock stuff. I'm switching to stud mount before it runs again. I am just trying to figure out the best way to do that.

Anyone know what rockers come with the Hughes kit? It seems too cheap for that to be a very good rocker arm. Comp doesn't make one that looks like that anymore.

Steve

 

[POS Dakota]

Thanks guys!

These heads were set up for the 1.6 rockers. The springs don't coil bind till .620

Cam is 224/230 .533/.544. There's a mile of clearance to the guides.

After this I'm done with the stock stuff. I'm switching to stud mount before it runs again. I am just trying to figure out the best way to do that.

Anyone know what rockers come with the Hughes kit? It seems too cheap for that to be a very good rocker arm. Comp doesn't make one that looks like that anymore.

Steve

was that an exhaust pushrod that bent?
.544 I believe is pushing it.

You said you;re using the stock rockers though...
does the stock rocker move enough to accomodate that?

I cant remember if it will.

 

[LXguy]

I was running the stock rockers. It was an exhaust pushrod that bent. All the other ones seem fine, so I think its probably ok, or at least, this is the only problem I've had, but that's something to look at more closely for sure.

 

[JoeDust451]

Thanks guys!

These heads were set up for the 1.6 rockers. The springs don't coil bind till .620

Cam is 224/230 .533/.544. There's a mile of clearance to the guides.

After this I'm done with the stock stuff. I'm switching to stud mount before it runs again. I am just trying to figure out the best way to do that.

Anyone know what rockers come with the Hughes kit? It seems too cheap for that to be a very good rocker arm. Comp doesn't make one that looks like that anymore.

Steve

Are you talking stud mount rockers? Are the heads shaft or stud mount? If you have that much clearance on the springs, i'd replace the obvious 1st. being the pushrods to a better set, then the rockers or both. Stock pushrods really can't take that kind of load & RPMs for long.

What are the spring pressures?

 

[LXguy]

Well, looks like no valve leakage at least on the cylinder that busted the pushrod, so hurray. I feel like I got away lucky on that one.

The heads are basically just like a stock Magnum head as far as the valvetrain goes. Pedestal mount rockers. I'm thinking of converting to a stud mount rocker solution, but I've had geometry issues in the past when doing that with Ford pedestal stuff, so I'm kind of leery about it. Also not running Chinese rocker arms, and I don't know what comes with the Hughes kit.

These Iron Ram heads were really cheap, so I can't say Im not happy about them, especially given how the car performs, but I really wish I would have stepped up and had them machine the seats and install the bigger, badder springs.

The springs are Hughes 1110.

Installed Height/Pressure: 1.750"--135#
Pressure @ .450" lift: 280#
Pressure @ .500" lift: 300#
Pressure @ .550" lift: 315#
Coil Bind: .600" lift
Outer Spring ID/OD: 1.068"/1.465"
Type of Spring: Single w/ damper

I didn't get to pull any springs last night (doing that tonight, some of my locks are looking a little funky), but I did screw around with turning the engine to check for coil bind and all that. Looks like the ramps on this cam are very fast, which really makes me wonder if those springs are good enough. The pushrod to lifter angle also gets pretty extreme with this much lift. It wouldn't take a whole lot of lifter bounce or pump-up for the upper edge of the lifter to come in contact with the pushrod (pushing it off the cup and wham-o).

From the way this thing was pulling at the track last week, I think it will go well above 6000 RPM very easily, but I don't want to run it that high if I'm going to be breaking valvetrain crap all the time. Need to buy a winch for the trailer....

 

[Badart]

That's good news on the valves. It makes me nervous because I am running stock magnum pushrods with pedestal 1.6 roller rockers with guide plates. What kind of issues have you had with these rockers? So far I have had no issues, but my cam is a much smaller flat tappet, just under .500" and I don't rev the thing past 5,500.

I think Mad dart was selling a set of hardened pushrods for magnums not too long ago. http://www.forabodiesonly.com/mopar/showthread.php?t=86177 Maybe send him a pm.

 

[moper]

Yeah, I think it'sa cobination of the angle and not enough spring for the cam. Those lifters are HEAVY and I dont think 315lbs is enough. However, if you see you have a ton of retainer to guide clearance you could shim them and prob get another 20-25lbs all aorund on them. It may not be enough but if it was only one that bent and you're adding better pushrods, it just might be. Get lighter pushrods if at all possible... I dont think I'd do the stud rockers unless you're pulling the heads and addressing the rest of it.

 

[LXguy]

That's good news on the valves. It makes me nervous because I am running stock magnum pushrods with pedestal 1.6 roller rockers with guide plates. What kind of issues have you had with these rockers? So far I have had no issues, but my cam is a much smaller flat tappet, just under .500" and I don't rev the thing past 5,500.

I think Mad dart was selling a set of hardened pushrods for magnums not too long ago. http://www.forabodiesonly.com/mopar/showthread.php?t=86177 Maybe send him a pm.

Those sure look like stud mount rockers in the pic. I didn't know anyone sold pedestal mount roller rockers for Magnums. With the Ford stuff, it seemed like no matter what I did, I couldn't get a good pattern on top of the valve with the stud conversion, and some rockers just flat didn't work at all because of the shorter stud.

Maybe if I convert to stud, I should bump down to a 1.5 rocker?

Moper: Good advice on the spring stuff. I've had good luck with the Ford hydraulic roller rockers in the past, but the Mopar stuff is definitely bigger/heavier.

Its sort of crazy how fast the ramps are on this cam. They're almost square.

 

[LXguy]

The rockers in the link are stud mount.

I bet the stock pushrods will be ok for you. I think I had this thing cranking way higher than 5500, and I think the lift on the cam is a contributing factor.

What springs are you running? Did they require machining?

 

[Badart]

The rockers in the link are stud mount.

I bet the stock pushrods will be ok for you. I think I had this thing cranking way higher than 5500, and I think the lift on the cam is a contributing factor.

What springs are you running? Did they require machining?

Sorry, I haven't finished my first cup of coffee yet. 8)

They are the chevy beehive springs and they are only good for about .520 lift, but no machining. I'm cheap.

 

[LXguy]

Have you got a part#? If I went 1.5 rocker arm, I'd only be at .510 on the exhaust.

 

[mopar340dave]

A machine shop that is used to dealing with mopars will have a spring checker you can use on your engine...or you can buy one. They vary from not bad to crazy expensive, like everything else.
While I believe that one spring may be of better quality than another, that does not mean that the springs that came with the heads are cheapos. If the springs are the correct spec, they should be fine.

Make sure you take the time to actually find out exactly how long your pushrods need to be. Don't just order whatever size the book says to get, measure the length required. The stack up of tolerances changes this number a little bit and it is very important! A hair too long and ...well...look at your pics.....


P.S. Guide plates require hardened pushrods...in case noone mentioned that....I gotta read...

 

[demon seed]

Hughes have got Magnum Shaft mount rockers, basically 2 rockers on a short shaft, take a look. If 1.65 ratio is to much I'd back down on the cam. http://www.hughesengines.com/Index/products.php?partid=25628

It seems this problem with the old magnum rocker design is also covered here. http://www.forabodiesonly.com/mopar/showthread.php?t=91831

 

[Badart]

I will see if I could find it. They are chevy 3100 springs and retainers and cost me like $120 at the parts counter at the dealership. Moper knows what springs I am talking about and maybe he could chime in. This guy on moparts has done all of the homework. http://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=3134434&page=0&fpart=all&vc=1

 

[mopar340dave]

http://www.hughesengines.com/Tools/.../HPCDataDir/Images/Hug1555.jpg&title=HUG 1555

Finally a product that will allow me to run a Magnum head without hating it!!!

P.S. LXGuy, you said you had a mile to go before you crashed the seals right? Get with the 1.65's!


By the way, did anyone else notice the stupid politician link? Friggin hilarious!
Look in the list of attributes for the rocker arms and click "stupid politician". LOL

 

[LXguy]

I looked into those. Its tempting. They do look very cool (and $$$). POS Dakota has a thread about them on here someplace (Demon Seed linked to it). He had some geometry trouble, but he is running a higher installed height spring than I am. I wonder what material the rocker bodies are made of? It looks cheap.

If the springs are marginal to start with, I'm worried about the extra uumph of the higher rocker ratio, and that takes me to .560 lift on the exhaust. I measured about .090 before coil bind on the springs at current max exhaust lift (but that's a hydraulic lifter without the engine running) so its at least a little less than that. I'm pretty sure I'd get into retainer-guide issues before coil bind though.

I've always found its better to keep the politics and religion out of my business stuff. Never mind the basic etiquette of discussing those topics with strangers, that crap is so polarizing, there's only downside in it.

I don't think those GM springs would cut the mustard. The rate is lots lower than the springs I've already got. A beehive doesn't need as much rate, because it doesn't have as much of its own weight to manage, but still. Maybe with 1.5 rockers.

Demon Seed: There's no way I'm replacing the camshaft. I think I'd change the heads first! LOL Thanks for the link!

 

[mopar340dave]

Those are BARGAIN PRICED!!!!!

Yeah, I know what ya mean about the politics, but that was funny! I don't really care which nationally known politicians face you put up there, still funny! LOL

As for your engine, the cost of fixing your heads is more labor than parts...but thats up to you.
I would not detune the valvetrain to live with heads that are incompatible with the cam. i would fix the heads up to work with those 1.65's and rev that thing!


P.S. Hughes does not bother with anodizing. They are tumbled after machining for stress relief. They are mos def not cheap. They are made of CNC Machined 2024-T3511 aluminum. It is actually not as hard (Rockwell scale) but is more resilient than 7075 series aluminum alloys. I am an aircraft structural mechanic.

 

[LXguy]

As for your engine, the cost of fixing your heads is more labor than parts...but thats up to you.
I would not detune the valvetrain to live with heads that are incompatible with the cam. i would fix the heads up to work with those 1.65's and rev that thing!

Food for thought for sure. The thing really likes the RPMs, so it sucks to artificially limit it. I'm probably being once-bitten twice-shy on the springs since Hughes and Comp seem to agree that they're ok (though Hughes doesn't know anything about the camshaft other than the .050 and lift numbers).

P.S. Hughes does not bother with anodizing. They are tumbled after machining for stress relief. They are mos def not cheap. They are made of CNC Machined 2024-T3511 aluminum. It is actually not as hard (Rockwell scale) but is more resilient than 7075 series aluminum alloys. I am an aircraft structural mechanic.

Thanks for the info on the rockers!

 

[LXguy]

Sheesh! The pushrods for those shaft rockers are almost a half inch longer than stock!

 

[POS Dakota]

P.S. Hughes does not bother with anodizing. They are tumbled after machining for stress relief. They are mos def not cheap. They are made of CNC Machined 2024-T3511 aluminum. It is actually not as hard (Rockwell scale) but is more resilient than 7075 series aluminum alloys. I am an aircraft structural mechanic.

If you look at TD and Jesel I believe they use the same material, or at least the same stress relief process. they dont bother with anodizing them either. They are what they are.

I think a lot of people see them and since it looks like the metal they make hotwheels out of, they think it's cheap. LOL It's the exact opposite. It's strong stuff.

You're exactly correct on the alloy. I bought them because you can't get better for the price. I had to shim them .120 to get perfect roller contact with the RHS heads from IMM. Details on everything are in the thread.

I wouldnt hesitate to get a set.

http://www.forabodiesonly.com/mopar/showthread.php?t=91831

 

[POS Dakota]

Sheesh! The pushrods for those shaft rockers are almost a half inch longer than stock!

Don't be gun shy over bending a **** stock pushrod.:-D
I mean look at them! It's a tack welded ball on a POS tube.
They're meant to haul wood, not ***. lol

Those pushrods from hughes are made by smith brothers and are just fine.
I posted a pic in the same thread. One thing I will say about hughes is they really like to make sure they only sell good stuff. They've done a lot for the hobby. No one's perfect, but they do a great job.

If you want anymore details on anything just ask.

 

[blue73duster]

When you get things straightened out ( or when you have time ), post some pics of the car
very nice lookin Dart !!!!!!!!!!!

 

[mopar340dave]

What is called hard anodizing requires some expensive processes and actually serves no purpose mechanically in this application. The design of the rockers provide for no aluminum wear surfaces. Anodizing these rockers would just add cost and make them a pretty color and I'm pretty sure that the Hughes site actually mentions that somewhere.

The purpose of anodizing is to harden the surface of the aluminum. This makes it more abrasion resistant and more corrosion resistant. Neither of these attributes are required for these rocker arms.

My Crane Gold Race rockers are hard anodized gold. Anyone who has a set can tell you that they generally have a final step before they are ready after anodizing, they hone the inside of the rocker, do any required thread chasing and ream the holes for the rollers and install the rollers. Why? Because the aluminum actually grows in the hard anodizing process. Some of the color will be removed from the bore when they hone them to fit the shafts but it will still be hard anodized. That surface is a bearing surface and the hard anodizing is just a little extra insurance against premature wear.

The color that you see on many anodized aluminum parts is optional and is nothing more than aesthetics or color coding. I use nuts for aircraft fasteners at work that are anodized aluminum. This app requires the anodizing. Different colors are used to designate different types of nuts (that are actually called collars). The "nut" part of the collar breaks off when the correct torque is reached and the "collar" is left behind instead of a nut. They are very light and strong and very corrosion and tamper resistant.
http://www.electrohio.com/Finishing/AlAnodizing/AlAnodizing.htm

And yup, POS, Jesel hasn't been anodizing in about twenty years, but no...there stuff is a proprietary blend in the 7000 series.....and it costs 4 times as much money....and they don't make a set for a magnum motor! I'm not even sure they make a set for a typical LA.
T&D does not anodize their stuff either and their site does not say what aluminum alloy the rockers are manufactured form. It may also be a 7000 series but keep in mind that these are being used in engines with crazy spring pressures and very high RPM. The rockers have less mass and require the extra strength and, once again, the price is real steep! LOL

 

[dustoff440]

Cool.

Is the Thumpr cam hydraulic roller?

Steve

Yes, Comp said they would custom grind a Mutha Thumpr profile for the the hydraulic roller 360 Magnum for the same price as a retrofit roller for LA.