First round of questions - 727 rebuild

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MrJLR

MrJLR

Built, not bought
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I guess I'll hold off ordering parts until I disassemble the trans....

1) any tip for the removal? I'm going to leave the engine in the car. ...

2) I'm supposed to measure the end play before I disassemble it...not sure on exactly how they mean...?

3) special tools? Snap ring pliers, slide hammer, anything else?

4) my speedometer has always been off by about 10 mph....how do I fix that?

I have other questions. ..just can' remember right now...lol...

Jeff
 
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I strongly recommend you get the transmission book by Carl Munroe. Cope Racing sells it and I'm sure it's on Amazon.
 
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I did not use a slide hammer. I made a brace that fastened across the open end of the bellhousing. I used that brace to hold the dial gauge to measure the end play . Also put 2 long bolts through the brace and threaded into the pump housing. Simultaneously turning those bolts lifts out the housing. Yes a slide hammer is quicker and simpler. Just not as civilized to me.
 
Special tools: you will need some drifts to install some sleeve bearings( very similar to installing cam bearings in the block. I made my own from steel rod using a big lathe. Some auto parts houses sell universal drift tool kits.
I personally found it easier to pull the engine and trans. together. But I don't have a lift. Just doing a transmission R&R on a set of ramps or jack stands was a real pain.

Also I recommend getting parts from Cope Racing. His parts and prices are probably just like most any other place but; John Cope is an excellent source of torqueflite knowledge. Certainly he wouldn't mind helping out one of his customers.
 
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iScamp said:
Special tools: you will need some drifts to install some sleeve bearings( very similar to installing cam bearings in the block. I made my own from steel rod using a big lathe. Some auto parts houses sell universal drift tool kits.
I personally found it easier to pull the engine and trans. together. But I don't have a lift. Just doing a transmission R&R on a set of ramps or jack stands was a real pain.

Also I recommend getting parts from Cope Racing. His parts and prices are probably just like most any other place but; John Cope is an excellent source of torqueflite knowledge. Certainly he wouldn't mind helping out one of his customers.
Click to expand...

Good tips thank you!
I have access to a full machine shop so the drifts are simple. ...
So the end play is just the center shaft? I have indicators, mics, calipers etc...

Jeff
 
The center shaft on the input and the output shaft. I used a dial indicator. Don't remember how I attached the gauge to measure output shaft play. I have pictures from my rebuild. I think I have to use an online source like Flickr to post pictures or become a Gold Member to upload images straight from my computer? I'm trying to figure that out right now.
I'm no expert on tranny rebuilds hopefully the torqueflite gurus will chime in soon.
 
iScamp said:
The center shaft on the input and the output shaft. I used a dial indicator. Don't remember how I attached the gauge to measure output shaft play. I have pictures from my rebuild. I think I have to use an online source like Flickr to post pictures or become a Gold Member to upload images straight from my computer? I'm trying to figure that out right now.
I'm no expert on tranny rebuilds hopefully the torqueflite gurus will chime in soon.
Click to expand...

Thank you...I didn't realize I need to check BOTH shafts....
I'll rig up something. ...
Thanks!


Jeff
 
MrJLR said:
I guess I'll hold off ordering parts until I disassemble the trans....

1) any tip for the removal? I'm going to leave the engine in the car. ...

2) I'm supposed to measure the end play before I disassemble it...not sure on exactly how they mean...?

3) special tools? Snap ring pliers, slide hammer, anything else?

4) my speedometer has always been off by about 10 mph....how do I fix that?

I have other questions. ..just can' remember right now...lol...

Jeff
Click to expand...
1. - Everything is obvious on pulling a tranny. only tip I have is draining as much of the tranny fluid as you can will save a mess. I pull the converter with the tranny. I also put a piece of wood (2x4?) under the oil pan and the drag link to help relieve some of the stress on motor mounts and control the tilt of the engine.
4. - easy enough to correct a speedometer. Just change the speedo gear, they are numbered. Also, the number on the gear will dictate at what position you lock the assembly into the tranny.
 
318willrun said:
1. - Everything is obvious on pulling a tranny. only tip I have is draining as much of the tranny fluid as you can will save a mess. I pull the converter with the tranny. I also put a piece of wood (2x4?) under the oil pan and the drag link to help relieve some of the stress on motor mounts and control the tilt of the engine.
4. - easy enough to correct a speedometer. Just change the speedo gear, they are numbered. Also, the number on the gear will dictate at what position you lock the assembly into the tranny.
Click to expand...

Good tip on the 2x4.....
I did order a yoke plug !

Jeff
 
you can check the end clearance with a pair of vise grips and feeler gauge.....
 
A tip for draining additional fluid is to run the shifter through the gears after the filter is removed. It will dump out around another quart which makes it less of a mess when pulling the valve body later.
 
There's no way to properly measure the output shaft end play because the tailshaft bearing doesn't fit very tight nor is there any way to tighten it up. You measure the rear gear train play when your assembling it and there are shims to tighten it up. To measure the front end play stand the trans. on the output shaft so as to take up all the rear slop. I don't worry about measuring the front end play before disassembly because if you tighten up the rear geartrain play and install new thrust washers, which you should, you've changed so much the measurement will not be valid. The #1 thrust washer behind the front pump is selective meaning it comes in different thicknesses and that's how you set the end play. Assemble the trans. with the same size washer it came with and install the front pump without the outer O-ring so it'll come back out real easy and take a reading and change the thrust washer as needed to set the end play.

As mentioned get Karl Munroe's book and/or the new book out by Tom Hand. Amazon has them. Tons of great info in them. Tom's book also contains information on 904's and other things that Munroe's doesn't cover. Don't take it that I mean Munroe's is sub-par. It's fantastic also. Here's links to them

https://www.amazon.com/dp/1613253354/?tag=joeychgo-20

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B004FPYZQQ/?tag=joeychgo-20
 
fishy68 said:
There's no way to properly measure the output shaft end play because the tailshaft bearing doesn't fit very tight nor is there any way to tighten it up. You measure the rear gear train play when your assembling it and there are shims to tighten it up. To measure the front end play stand the trans. on the output shaft so as to take up all the rear slop. I don't worry about measuring the front end play before disassembly because if you tighten up the rear geartrain play and install new thrust washers, which you should, you've changed so much the measurement will not be valid. The #1 thrust washer behind the front pump is selective meaning it comes in different thicknesses and that's how you set the end play. Assemble the trans. with the same size washer it came with and install the front pump without the outer O-ring so it'll come back out real easy and take a reading and change the thrust washer as needed to set the end play.

As mentioned get Karl Munroe's book and/or the new book out by Tom Hand. Amazon has them. Tons of great info in them. Tom's book also contains information on 904's and other things that Munroe's doesn't cover. Don't take it that I mean Munroe's is sub-par. It's fantastic also. Here's links to them

https://www.amazon.com/dp/1613253354/?tag=joeychgo-20

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B004FPYZQQ/?tag=joeychgo-20
Click to expand...
Thank you....I've been researching this on this forum and I've read a TON of your posts....you certainly know your stuff...!
I'm a little intimidated by all the parts and procedures, but I can and will get through this!

Jeff
 
fishy68 said:
As mentioned get Karl Munroe's book and/or the new book out by Tom Hand. Amazon has them. Tons of great info in them. Tom's book also contains information on 904's and other things that Munroe's doesn't cover. Don't take it that I mean Munroe's is sub-par. It's fantastic also. Here's links to them

https://www.amazon.com/dp/1613253354/?tag=joeychgo-20
Click to expand...

I agree. Get Tom's book and help support another FABO member.
 
There's a lot of simple ways around expensive tools you'll only use once or twice. Also have you ever seen a pro pull a pump out of an automatic transmission? On the couple videos of real pro's they skip it or it happens so fast you have slow mo replay it. I'm sure on a turbo 350 I seen him flick it out with a screwdriver. I've also heard of just taking a bar and smacking it through from the valve body area. But that's not first-timer territory probably just use some kind of puller. I just screwed some threaded eyelids in there and used some chain or something to give it a jerk and pull the pump out only thing you got to remember to do is tighten up the exterior band adjuster so you don't suck the guts out LOL with the pump. But you just loosen that up once you get the pump out and then pull each thing out one by one and make sure you put everything back in the same way. I obviously like the way 70aarcuda said to do with the vice grips. I'd take a reading before and after and if you put everything back the same way and use your old spacer washers, I wouldn't change any of that. I would just change all the seals clutches steals and bushings and put the same spacers. There's a lot of play that's available in these Transmissions and torque flights like a lot of play anyways. You don't necessarily want a super tight Transmission. And remember there's no springs or bearings or anything that's going to fly out at you. That's ridiculous! You bag and tag each of the three servos which none of those parts can go in the wrong place really it just bag the three servos separately and you'll be fine. Take it all out and then rebuild each part and put it back in one by one. It's really very simple.
 
Since this is your first one, I highly recommend you take lots of pictures during disassembly. It may be intimidating now, but once you complete it I think you'll be surprised how easy it really is. However, like anything complex, there is always questions that come up, and that's where pictures come in handy. The books mentioned in other posts have good reference photos as well, but you will remember more of the process if you take pictures each step of the way. Now for tools. The two band adjusting screws are square drive and must be torqued, so find a socket for that. The high/reverse drum (front position in the trans) has a set of return springs that need to be compressed to remove or install the retaining ring. You can get creative with a press, vise, or come up with some threaded rod and scrap steel to make a simple tool. A lip seal tool for the forward clutch piston is sometimes helpful but can be simply cut out of an empty coolant jug. Be careful if you need a lip seal tool as even plastic can cut the seal if you get aggressive. Usually a generous application of trans jelly or vasoline as a substitute, along with massaging the seals downward with your fingers lightly right before installing the piston will help. The rest has been covered or is easy with hands-on thumb pressure for the intermediate servo spring and low/reverse servo spring. Lastly, and most important, keep your work space clean and organized. If you lay the parts out in the order they were removed, it will look just like one of the exploded views in the reference books and everything will make more sense to you. Take your time and have fun learning something new. Sorry for the long post.
 
I'm actually pretty excited to get started...I'm off this week so I'm gonna drive her today and tomorrow and then up in the air she goes!
My torque converter is new, a 2400 stall from Hughes.
Like I said, I'll be installing a TF-2 shift kit, a deep pan, and a seperate transmission cooler.
I estimate my 318 is in the 275 HP range, but it won' be too long before I stroke it to 390...so I want the transmission to be able to handle 400 - 450 HP.
At that HP level, I don' think I'd need a bolt in heavy duty spray unit.....

Jeff
 
It's a lot easier than it might look at first.

Good advice from the guys here.
I'll second what they're saying.

Take lots of pictures.
I kept a notebook handy made lots of notes and wrote in it key bits of information from the Munroe book so I didn't get it dirty.
The instructions from the Shift Kit I put in those clear plastic sheet protectors so I could handle them without getting them dirty.
I mention dirty but cleanliness is a big part of this. The valve body is very sensitive to even tiny bits of dirt.

A clean work station is very very important.
The other is organization; like the others mentioned.
Parts bins; clean plastic bags labeled with a Sharpie are a must if you ask me.
Have at it dude !
 
iScamp said:
It's a lot easier than it might look at first.

Good advice from the guys here.
I'll second what they're saying.

Take lots of pictures.
I kept a notebook handy made lots of notes and wrote in it key bits of information from the Munroe book so I didn't get it dirty.
The instructions from the Shift Kit I put in those clear plastic sheet protectors so I could handle them without getting them dirty.
I mention dirty but cleanliness is a big part of this. The valve body is very sensitive to even tiny bits of dirt.

A clean work station is very very important.
The other is organization; like the others mentioned.
Parts bins; clean plastic bags labeled with a Sharpie are a must if you ask me.
Have at it dude !
Click to expand...
Good tip about putting the instructions in plastic protectors. ....
I'll be clearing my workbench off this afternoon. ...need as much room as possible!

Jeff
 
A 904 would easily handle what you're talking about let alone the 727. I used the stage 3 shift kit which is the same one just a full manual. And I was extremely impressed with the way it shifted. Actually as a first-timer or rebuilding a 904 I was more impressed with how that transmission worked then with the 318 Parts motor I slapped together.

MrJLR said:
I'm actually pretty excited to get started...I'm off this week so I'm gonna drive her today and tomorrow and then up in the air she goes!
My torque converter is new, a 2400 stall from Hughes.
Like I said, I'll be installing a TF-2 shift kit, a deep pan, and a seperate transmission cooler.
I estimate my 318 is in the 275 HP range, but it won' be too long before I stroke it to 390...so I want the transmission to be able to handle 400 - 450 HP.
At that HP level, I don' think I'd need a bolt in heavy duty spray unit.....

Jeff
Click to expand...
 
Remember a pro has finished rebuilding a 727 and has a 904 disassembled and in the parts washer before lunch. Not to say you should be in any hurry whatsoever but just to show how simple it is. I modified a feeler gauge but it was still a little sharp and then a lot of it I use a plastic toothpick to get the lip seals in. Also I used a piece of welding wire looped and a lot of generic Vaseline LOL a big jar of generic Vaseline and a couple boxes of those Blue Harbor flight gloves. Those are great for just throwing away quickly to keep things clean. I go into it trying to use two boxes and at least two rolls of paper towels. I can roll them on the table and keep things clean and suck dirt up and change them on the table quickly or add some more to keep things clean. All the while constantly changing those blue gloves again as if I was on a mission to use them all up. I just pulled everything off pulled everything out that I've been tagged it clean the housing and then started cleaning and refurbishing everything in the opposite order as I took it out. It was very simple
 
The bolt in sprag is not about hp level.....they fail in stock transmissions as well. What damages them is when spinning tires suddenly grab. This can happen spinning a tire in gravel up onto asphalt where it grabs.

The bolt in outer race is only a part of the equation. Carefully examine the inner race, rolling elements ans springs as well. If they show any wear or damage change them.
 
Shown below is a stock 727 from behind a 318. You can see one rolling element migrated to the next cavity and the case is fractured. This is probably from a combination of the worn inner race (also below) and a shock load which caused the roller to pop into the next cavity. This is the beginning of a failure....

IMG_20170522_141808.jpg


IMG_20170522_141808.jpg
 
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