Flywheel Question

-

wheelman21

Mopar noob
Joined
Jan 1, 2011
Messages
208
Reaction score
0
Location
Bing NY
Ok guys. I've got a bit of a newbie question here. What determines my flywheel? I'm swapping an AX15 behind a small block. It came off of a 3.9 Dakota and I am using that bell as well. They have a different flywheel. The engine in the car uses a 130 tooth with a 10.5" clutch diameter surface. The 3.9 dak used a 143 tooth flywheel with a bigger clutch. What flywheel do I need? Sorry for the newbie question.
 
"Exactly" what engine do you have? 360's use a weighted flywheel, I'm not sure what a 5.9 magnum uses, 340/ 318/ 273 are neutral balance I believe.

What body series do you intend to drop this into? That gearbox is not particularly good for a car application, or so I'm told..........gear ratios
 
it's a 340 that's externally balanced. It's going into a 73 Dart. I've done a fair amount of research on it, and while I would prefer a T56, a 5 grand trans isn't in my budget. People criticize the drop from 1st to second but I've got a car with almost the exact same drop and it works out just fine. There's a couple guys here with them in their cars and they love them. There are some who are quick to crucify me for it, but oh well.
 
You will need more info like are ax-15 and A833 the same input shaft spline count? Pilot diameter of ax and 340 bearing same? That will determine if clutch disk will work. As far as flywheel, if spline count are the same, you should use 340 clutch but if not try Dakota V8 clutch with 5.9 magnum flywheel which is externally balanced. The problem I see is how to operate clutch, the ax used a hydraulic clutch while 73 used mechanical linkage.

We are doing a magnum FI 5 speed swap in 73 Sport soon but I was going to put clutch master in car and use hydraulic setup. We are doing injection so we will have to use magnum flywheel with a Dakota V8 clutch.

If you can get the questions I asked answered, I can be less vague....
 
Pilot bearing is the same. It's all good there. It's in an auto car and I don't plan to use 4 speed linkage. I will fab a hydro master and pedal setup, probably using wilwood components. Southbend clutch is willing to build me clutch kit. I just need the flywheel. So I just need to know what flywheel to use.
 
it's a 340 that's externally balanced. It's going into a 73 Dart. I've done a fair amount of research on it, and while I would prefer a T56, a 5 grand trans isn't in my budget. People criticize the drop from 1st to second but I've got a car with almost the exact same drop and it works out just fine. There's a couple guys here with them in their cars and they love them. There are some who are quick to crucify me for it, but oh well.

Well,well
This tranny has ratios of 3.83-2.33-1.44-1.00-.79 and splits;.61-.62-.69-.79
This tranny will work very nice behind small engines with small cams and small,tight powerbands. Like a Jeep 4.0, or pure-stock teener, or a 273.
The 1.2 split is a non-issue, if second is where it should be.
It's the 2-3 split that is killer for a high-winding 340.
To make this work on the street you will want a rear gear of about 2.94. This gives a nice (for a 340) starter gear of 11.26, and a 2.32 od gear,making 65mph around 1875 rpm.Now that big fat truck flywheel will launch pretty hard, for two gears. And then comes third. Where did it go? Outshifting at 6500, the Rs drop to 4030. That makes a powerband requirement in third gear of 2470 rpm, and it will have to pull that from 76mph to redline at 124mph. Can you say Slooow.Your car is now a 3 gear quartermiler, or a 2 gear in the 1/8.
But you say why did I choose a 2.94 rear? Good question. Let's say you don't care about the highway revs. So lets upsize to 3.55s. Right off the bat we are in trouble cuz 3.83 x 3.55 =13.6 starter gear. This gear is frightful to try and drive around town, cuz you barely get the car moving and it's time to shift.Good for racing(maybe),bad for street.
Ok so lets say we start it in 2nd gear. Then 3.55 x 2.33 = 8.27-not so good. This gear will require a lot of slipping with a 340.
But lets continue. Say you are at the top of second again;doing 63mph@6500 and you pull the stick, and the Rs drop to 4030 again. Now third gets to pull this to 102@6500. You are in the wrong gear to trap well. You are gonna have to rev higher or shift. Either will cost you ET.And it's still a 3-gear quartermiler. Echo;slooow.
So what do you do? I know!Lets work the formula backwards. Say you are looking for 110 mph at 6300, cuz that puts your engine just on the downside of the powercurve, and you think it can pull that mph. Heres the math.MPH =( Rpm x TC)/1056 x R1 x R2 Where TC = tire circumference;say with 28s, and R1 = Rear gear, and R2 = tranny gear
So working it out we see that R1 x R2 = 4.77. So what rear will give us 4.77 in overdrive( so we can use 4 gears in the qtr)? Answer is 3.73s Well that seems pretty good.
3.73s will make a second gear street starter of 8.69 which seem ok(barely). And a first gear race starter of 14.28. Which with that truck flywheel is almost guaranteed to be a wheels up launch.(learn to shift before she comes back down, or prepare to get a tow). And the od will be 3.73 which seems ok. With 3.73s, the splits are; .62-.69-.79,
which is excellent.
Now the bad news.
1) In most trannys the O/D gear is pretty weak. So you'll probably blow it up the first time you enter it at 4000rpm.
2) On the street with 3.73s first is useless,(Except for parking on soft ground at the shows) but second is a quite far away. So basically you have a wide ratio 4 speed, behind an engine that wants a very close ratio, and in a car that is easily 10% overweight for a 340.
3) 65 mph = 2380 with 27s
4) That truck flywheel will be very hard for the synchronizers to slow down from 6500 to 4000
5) Opinion coming;I doubt that tranny can handle a 340, so it will likely blow up on the starting line.
6) Have you seen how deep that baby is? Watch out for speed bumps.

Ok enough track bs.
Lets say you care not a bit about how fast your 340 is. That takes us back to the beginning.
Since you already have the 340, put a tiny 2bbl cam in it,a spreadbore/late opening secondary carb on it, call it a big-bore teener, and shift early.This tranny will work pretty good with a high-torque, low rpm engine.And I can tell you from first hand experience,that a 340 with all the teener stuff on it, is prettty torquey
Or get a Mopar tranny; made for Mopars, with tight splits, really tough to blow up. Imagine that you blew all the cash you saved so hard for, on that Aisen and all too soon its coming out in pieces.
Or maybe it will last if you saddle it with real skinny tires. Kinda not what a 340 wants tho, eh?

Now I know you didn't ask for any of this crap, and that you researched the Aisen, but Man, I just hate to see a guy blow his savings and a fairly large chunk of time, on a 5spd dream, just to have it all come undone.

All opinions are those of the poster, and are not to be confused with facts, cuz opinions are, well, just that, and are seldom changed.
 
AJ, whew. How does one reply lol. Thanks for your response. I've had a couple people who come in and say "no way I'd run that transmission it's stupid". And that's it. No facts no supporting info. So thanks for so much information. After all that it would be pretty foolish to continue with my AX. The good news is I don't have much money in it yet and I haven't cut into the car yet. So thats good news. So let me ask a few questions if I may.

1)Would the 833OD be an improvement?
2)would a regular 833 be ok with 3.23 gears?
3)Is there such thing as a "truck 4 speed" in 68?
4)would afore mentioned truck trans be viable?

So just for info sake, my 340 has a mighty demon 750 on top of an M1 intake mani. It's running a 508 lift cam. It's got J heads with 202 valves.
 
AJ, whew. How does one reply lol. Thanks for your response. I've had a couple people who come in and say "no way I'd run that transmission it's stupid". And that's it. No facts no supporting info. So thanks for so much information. After all that it would be pretty foolish to continue with my AX. The good news is I don't have much money in it yet and I haven't cut into the car yet. So thats good news. So let me ask a few questions if I may.

1)Would the 833OD be an improvement?
2)would a regular 833 be ok with 3.23 gears?
3)Is there such thing as a "truck 4 speed" in 68?
4)would afore mentioned truck trans be viable?

So just for info sake, my 340 has a mighty demon 750 on top of an M1 intake mani. It's running a 508 lift cam. It's got J heads with 202 valves.

No, your engine is way past the Mopar o/d ratios
No your engine is way past 3.23s
Most A833s are 1/2ton pick-up compatible. IE they have no granny gears.
With that cam you will need a heavy flywheel, on the street, to get off the line from every stinking stop.

Checkout this thread http://www.forabodiesonly.com/mopar/showthread.php?t=336276
2.66 low gear vs close ratio (Multi-page thread 1 2)

I ran that 292/508cam, in my 367cuber.
- Opinion #1; Way too big for street and 4speed. Way too little torque down low.Needs at least 11 to 12.5 to one starter gear. So with a 2.66low unit it would need 4.10s for easy drive away.With the 3.09 low subbed in, would need 3.73s or 3.91s. This is an opinion.
I ran it with 3.55s,3.91s and 4.30s. I ran it with the 2.47 box and the 2.66 box.I moved the cam timing this way and that. I yanked it out and sold it. It pulled really hard from around 6000 to 7000.It was really soft off idle until I got the 12plus/1 starter gear into it.
- Opinion 2;That cam really wants a 4+1 tranny with the ratios really closely spaced.Except maybe the 1-2.
I replaced it with a 270/.538 Hughes cam. Whole new personality.Ran any rear gear;pick one.Mountains of torque right from idle, and still pulled to 7000.Mind you not as hard as the 292/508. Could use any tranny, including the Mopar o/d. To get the trap speed back, I put a GV behind it to split gears and keep the engine on the pipe all the way.With the GV behind the 833O/D, I had 7 usable upshift gears.
- After that I installed a Hughes 276/.549. I kinda think this is almost my favorite now.l still run the GV but now behind the 3.09low/direct 4th box, and with 3.55s.The starter gear is 10.97. The O/D is 2.77. I shift it; 1-2-3-3od-4od.The ratios are 3.09-1.92-1.40-1.09-.78 and the splits are .62-.73-.78-.715 Shazzam! This combo could easily pull 3.23s
- That's kinda what you need;kinda what everybody with sbms and large street cams, need. More opinions,from AJ.
 
Again great info AJ. I Won't probably ever quarter mile this car. I might 1/8 it once, if ever. I'm swapping the trans because a 3 speed 727 is boring and with the 3.91 that im currently running I can't even begin to think about putting it on the highway. I just want a car that's fun to drive and row gears. If I want to go racing I'll take my supercharged street machine that's fater than my little humble 340 dart sport will ever hope to be.
 
So if you already have 3.91s, this would work well wit, waitaminute;
Why in the world is that 508 in there then?
I mean you already know it's a "race" cam.
Here's my opinion;
here's what you need to do; Pull that508 badboy. Go down to something like 228*/110. Get a fast-rate,hi-lift cam designed for the .904 Mopar lifter, with maybe 1.6 arms. Get any regular non-od Mopar box, a heavy flywheel and 3.55s or 3.23s.
What's that come to? I mean over and above the Aisen?
Lesee; 250 for the box,another 250 for all the pedals etc, 50 for the tank flywheel,100 for the 3.23s(nobody wants those), and say 500 for the cam kit, and the M1s gotta go,so there's another 250 there. So we're up to $1400 so far. Add clutch and driveshaft, and incidentals say 2Gs. Now what were you looking at with the Aisen? Compare.Sell your stuff. Compare.

FWIW Shifting will get boring too, cuz with 3.23s it's pretty much a two gear deal, cuz 2nd gets you 84 mph @6500.
If you really wanna row gears you will need a very small engine, with a very small operating window with a lotta gears and a very steep rear gear. Then you will get to row three gears, to 60; or maybe 4. Remember the 84 Hyundai Pony?
-The smaller cams are way more street fun cuz the torque is always right there. Waiting for the 508 to come on line with 3.55s was disappointing for me; as it did not wake up until 50mph, and top of first was 60mph.
Not so with the smaller stuff, they wake up much earlier. Their done early too but , but that's ok cuz most of the time you'll be speeding anyway, somewhere in first gear, and either of these two will smoke 275s to 60 with 3.55s. At least mine did/does.
-Now consider;2600@ 65 with 27 inch tires, and 3.23s. And about 10% more with 3.55s.
-Keep in mind the Dcr change with the cam swap.
I can't say how much you value that 508, but I can say with utmost assurance, that I do NOT miss it. Both my Hughes cams did/do/have, pulled to 7000 with no complaints, time and time again. The smaller cam pulled my 4000 pound loaded Barracuda with a 2.02 final drive ratio, for hours at 85 plus mph, returning incredible mileage. With 10.7 Scr/8.7Dcr/aluminum heads, it burned 87E10 always. The bigger cam dropped the Dcr a bit, and does not get near the mileage, but she's a sweetheart in every other way.

Fwiw, stick-shifting will get boring too, cuz with 3.23s or even 3.55s redline in second will be speeding, so you still only have 2 shifts; the 1-2 and the 2-4.
On the other hand...going back to post #8, If you really wanna row gears that Aisen might survive behind a 273 (4.47liter) or a stockish lo-po teener(5.2liter), and you can almost keep those 3.91s....* 3.55s or 3.23s would be better, but the 273 would rock with 3.91s.
And then it hit me. If you detuned that 340 to 273 status, man that could be fun, with the aisen and 3.91s What you are looking for is a shift rpm around 4500 to no more than 4800. That would put you at 65 mph at the top of third;4550rpm. That's now 3 shifts;1-2,2-3,3-5. Unfortunately the 3.91 x 3.83 starter gear = 14.98. That's prettydeep. Redline would be 26 mph in first. At least it wouldn't likely blow off the tires.And cruise with the final drive of 3.09 would be 2494@65.
Bench-racing at its bs best.I still think that tranny has too big a spread from lowest to highest gears, for any V8.
 
Mainly because I didn't build this motor. I bought it in a drag car that I was planning on putting on the street. keep in mind this was a long long time ago. The car was too ugly to drive on the street honestly. It was an 81 Mirada. So I swapped it into a 318 dart sport. That was 5 years ago. And here we sit. With a car I barely drive because with that 727 built for drag it's just no fun.
 
Can someone on this forum who keeps telling me that 4 speed mopar boxes are 100-250 show me where? I've yet to see one under 600. And that includes the "OD boxes nobody wants" as I was told in the last thread. 250 for abody pedals, bell, linkage, z-bar, hump, shifter etc? $50 for a 340 flywheel? Seriously?! Good joke. Everyone on here keeps telling me how cheap all these components are just I have yet to find where. There's a reason I was looking to use a $150 ax15. I've got 6k in this car. I'm not trying to build a drag car. If I was id throw slicks and a trans brake on what I have. I'm not trying to build a race car. My daily runs 11s if I want to do that. I just wanted to have some fun with some classic mopar with a stick, the way it should be. I don't want to build a dog, hence asking questions and listening to what you have to say but I'm not building a race car either. And these prices you're throwing out don't exactly sound realistic. If you guys have some great source for a $250 trans Im all ears! If a manual trans in this car isn't feasable so be it. Parts like clutches, gears, cams I've got covered. I'm a dealer for all of the big companies for that stuff but people keep saying how cheap these boxes are and im not seeing it.

I'm fine with changing the cam. I absolutely love the sound of my motor with that cam, but if I can get some more low end torque, I'm ok with that too. I've always been a bit disappointed with the low end on this cam. I'm not hung up on the 508. I'm not looking to get 25mpg and drive this car all the time either. But it would be great to be able to put it on the highway from time to time to get where I'm going. 80% of this time this car will be a boulevard cruiser. I'm trying to find the most economical way to have some more fun with a car and get a little more enjoyment out of a car that will always hold a special place in my heart.

At the end of the day I'm trying to find a happy medium for this car. If I need to swap the cam and the rear gears that's fine. I'm just trying to find the most economical way to have some good old manual fun.

I thought I found a solution. no such luck. The search continues....opinions welcome
 
-
Back
Top