foglights in the grille?

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diymirage

HP@idle > hondaHP@redline
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so I'm thinking about adding foglights to my 71 duster
I don't want to mess up the looks of the car, so here is my thought...could I replace the small running lights with the indicators, which fit in between the headlights, with a set of foglights?

does anyone make a bolt in replacement for that?
 
not in this state.. those running lights are your directionals too - illegal. I have seen them mounted behind a grill before but it probably wasn't on a Duster - I would be afraid of the heat hurting the grill - - maybe open up the radiator support and make a bracket so the lights will sit farther back...?? Don't want to drill holes in the bumper huh?
 
Fog lights need to be low to the ground if they're going to actually be used for fog too. I think Ross's car has the best set up I've seen with them installed in the bumper

attachment.php
 
If you are actually talking FOG and not "driving" I think I agree. I think the combination of higher, and the dispersion / disruption caused by the grill will make a big "mess of light" in the fog ahead of you.
 
awesome - I can't tell you how many times I have argued with people over the DIFFERENCE between a fog light and a driving light... because the lights in the bumper of that black Duster are DRIVING LIGHTS
If you are actually talking FOG and not "driving" I think I agree. I think the combination of higher, and the dispersion / disruption caused by the grill will make a big "mess of light" in the fog ahead of you.
 
not in this state.. those running lights are your directionals too - illegal. I have seen them mounted behind a grill before but it probably wasn't on a Duster - I would be afraid of the heat hurting the grill - - maybe open up the radiator support and make a bracket so the lights will sit farther back...?? Don't want to drill holes in the bumper huh?


I was hoping to find a set that maintained the indicator by means of a smaller bulb, also build into the housing


I had not considered the heat affecting the grille, modern cars are nothing but plastic, so I never considered it to be too bad

Fog lights need to be low to the ground if they're going to actually be used for fog too. I think Ross's car has the best set up I've seen with them installed in the bumper

attachment.php

looks like great workmanship, but I don't want my duster to look like a 350GT
I would like to keep it looking like a stock duster
If you are actually talking FOG and not "driving" I think I agree. I think the combination of higher, and the dispersion / disruption caused by the grill will make a big "mess of light" in the fog ahead of you.


allright, driving lights
I just want to see where I'm aiming that car at night
 
In addition to what others have said:

Fog lamps are mostly useless, most of the time, for most drivers. See here for solid info on what fog lamps will/won't and can/can't do. "Driving lamp" or "driving light" is a widely misunderstood term. People use it to refer to all kinds of different lights. In fact, driving lamps are auxiliary high beams. They are effective, safe, and legal only for use with the vehicle's main high beam headlamps on dark, empty roads (or off road). Never with low beams, never by themselves, never in bad weather, and never in traffic.

There's a bunch of bad info flushing around: "fog lamps are yellow and driving lamps are white", "they're fog lamps if they're mounted low, driving lamps if they're mounted high", "they're fog/driving lights", etc. All of those are wrong. All vehicle exterior lighting functions, even the ones that aren't mandatory (like fog lamps, likdaytime running lights and side turn signal repeaters in the USA, or central brake lights on cars made before 1986, etc) are highly specified as to their design, construction, numerous aspects of performance, durability, etc. It's far, far more detailed than just "Well, it's a red light facing rearward that comes on when I step on the brake, so it's a brake light" or "Well, I turn 'em on in the rain so I use 'em as fog lights" or "Well, the eBay ad said turn signal, so that's what it is". We do not get to just declare any ol' light into whatever function we want -- doing so is unsafe, even if we don't have to pass an inspection.

If you really, actually need fog lamps because you drive through soup, pick out a good set of real fog lamps made by a legitimate manufacturer (there's a ton of junk on the market) and mount them low. But your money, time, and effort are much better spent upgrading the headlamps.

I was hoping to find a set that maintained the indicator by means of a smaller bulb, also build into the housing

No such lamp. Again, just because it flashes amber light doesn't make it a legitimate or safe turn signal.

I just want to see where I'm aiming that car at night

Start here.
 
good driving lights are stronger than your regular headlights, (brighter and generate more heat) so I would have to say that mounting them behind your grill would be bad... Also, (again, in this state anyway) having auxiliary driving lights on in the face of oncoming traffic is... you guessed it, illegal. Why not just upgrade your regular headlights to something brighter?
 
Aussie made Mopars had factory driving lights in the grill and no problem from heat.

Aussie.jpg
 
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sure - but here you cannot render the grill mounted directionals non-functional - do those function as turn signals too? OP wants to keep the look of the car so the only other option is to mount them behind the grill...
Aussie made Mopars had factory driving lights in the grill and noproblem from heat.
 
so I'm thinking about adding foglights to my 71 duster
I don't want to mess up the looks of the car, so here is my thought...could I replace the small running lights with the indicators, which fit in between the headlights, with a set of foglights?

does anyone make a bolt in replacement for that?
In short, no.

I considered doing this with (driving lights, not fog lights) the Demon, but decided not to go ahead. I was planning to use 64-65 Valiant turn signals over the corner of the lower front valence panel. I've been dragging around a pair of Cibie model 95 with the high wattage filament in them since I left Germany in 1986. I Photoshop-ed them into the grille in scale, so I knew they would fit the space available. Decided against doing this because the plastic grille would not afford a solid mount for the pair of driving lights.

If you are hell bent on making it happen, here are some things to consider.

1. Electrical load. Make sure wiring and switches are up to the task. Suggest direct run from battery via a switched relay.
2. Mounting. Make sure the light has a solid mount. It doesn't take much vibration to make a car look like an on-coming motorcycle charging over a washboard. It compromises the effectiveness of the light and is distracting to other drivers, if not for you as well. Make sure, too, that the mount allows proper aiming of the light. Especially critical for driving lamps.
3. Qualilty. Spend more to get good stuff. The items marketed as fog lamps or driving lamps in big box parts stores are not good. Cibie, Marchal, Lucas, PIAA, and Hella are old line makers I can recommend. Look at the headlight covers on modern pro rally or off-road trucks for other potential manufacturers. I have no experience with LED auxiliary lighting, so I can't say if it is better than filament types by any measure.
4. Fog vs Driving. Generally speaking a fog lamp will have a heavily fluted lens interior for good light dispersion. Fog lamps typically have a wider beam dispersion. While on the subject, fog lamps can be either yellow or white. Why yellow? Yellow, IMO, is less likely to be reflected by fog. In France, cars were required to have yellow headlight until 1993. They only changed then because of pressure from the EU. (It's now illegal in France unless the car was registered prior to 1993.) Cibie is a French company that made OEM as well as aftermarket lighting solutions. Cibie lights were "in" with customizers in the late 50s-early 60s.
A driving lamp is usually white with a long reaching beam. Cut-off between what is lit and what is not is fairly abrupt. The lens has little or no interior fluting. The Cibie 95s I have are good for 1¼ miles, when properly aimed, on a clear night. They will illuminate a clean reflector even farther out than that. I once made the mistake of turning them on in heavy fog. It was like someone had thrown a pillow case over the car.
 
thanks for all the info and good reads guys


I guess its back to the drawing board
 
I've been dragging around a pair of Cibie model 95 with the high wattage filament in them

That is (was) a good family of lamps -- very efficient fog, "driving" (aux high beam) and for awhile it also included an aux low beam lamp.


Qualilty. Spend more to get good stuff. The items marketed as fog lamps or driving lamps in big box parts stores are not good.

Very correct. There's a giant mountain of junk on the market -- much more junk than good stuff. And of course all of it is marketed as a quality, high-performance upgrade.

Cibie, Marchal, Lucas, PIAA, and Hella are old line makers I can recommend.

Marchal is an extinct brand and Cibie has been teetering back and forth on the edge of extinction; both brand names have belonged to Valeo since the early '70s, a French-based auto parts conglomerate with a long history of making very good lights and spastic, random approaches to selling them in the aftermarket. Numerous parts with one part number...one part with numerous part numbers...stuff you can't buy but it's in the catalog...stuff that's not in the catalog but you can buy it (if you know the part number and happen to talk to the right person at the right office on the right day). They've always been like this. I've lost count of how many ridiculously good lamps they've put out, not catalogued, not promoted, made it difficult to buy, then discontinued because "Well, nobody was buying them". And their killing of the Marchal brand is somewhere on the border between dumb and criminal -- a brand with decades of famous recognition and a perfect logo (cats can see in the dark, get it?) and they decided "Yawn...guess we don't need this any more". In Japan, the trademark rights were bought by a marketing outfit that slaps it on cheap junk from China. Sad. But some of the excellent old Cibie auxiliary lights are still in production, and they've got a really good new line of LED driving lamps.

Hella is a generally reliable German brand with a giant aftermarket product line that is well managed (none of the now-you-see-it/now-you-don't part number and catalog shenanigans), but the Hella name is not necessarily a guarantee of getting a good lamp any more. They've expanded their product line to include cheap Chinese trinkets, too. It's easy enough to avoid the junk, with knowledgeable advice.

Lucas is an old English brand now owned by a marketing company in India. There haven't been any real Lucas car lights made in decades. Through the '70s Lucas were generally known for extremely bad vehicle electrics ("What were Lucas' last words to his wife as he lay on his death bed? 'Don't drive at night!'"…"If Lucas made guns, wars wouldn't start!"…"Why do the English drink warm beer? Because they have Lucas refrigerators!" "Have you heard about the Lucas 3-position switch? Yeah, off-flicker-dim!") although they had some decent lights at that time. In the '80s they put out a burst of innovation including some very good auxiliary fog and driving lamps. By the mid '90s it was all over; the last of the original Lucas company had been sold and resold and resold and the name went away for awhile until it got picked up by the Indians.

PIAA's a Japanese brand. Their entire lighting line is between bad and fraudulent. They spend a lot of money on sexy packaging and breathless hype; their actual products are overhyped junk, but they sponsor race teams and price it stratospherically so people will think "Wow, I saw that name on a race car, and for this much money it's just gotta be good!". Unfortunately, it works—marketing psychology 101. It's the "Slick-50 Effect". You can do a lot better for your money.

I have no experience with LED auxiliary lighting, so I can't say if it is better than filament types by any measure.

It's like anything else: there are some excellent LED auxiliary lamps, some good ones, some decent ones, and a lot of junk. Good lamps are better than bad lamps, no matter what technology they use. There are excellent American-made LED fog and driving lamps from JW Speaker, but they are expensive.

Generally speaking a fog lamp will have a heavily fluted lens interior for good light dispersion.

Old-tech fog lamps, yes. Newer designs with complex reflectors have window-clear lenses. (Note "old tech" doesn't mean inferior; there have been many, many old-tech fog lamps that beat the pants off of many new-tech fog lamps.

Fog lamps typically have a wider beam dispersion.

Fog lamps are defined by their wide beam with a sharp top cutoff.

fog lamps can be either yellow or white. Why yellow? Yellow, IMO, is less likely to be reflected by fog.

That's a common myth, but it's not quite correct. See here for the full skinny on yellow fog lamps (and the French yellow-headlamp mandate).

In France, cars were required to have yellow headlight until 1993. They only changed then because of pressure from the EU. (It's now illegal in France unless the car was registered prior to 1993.)

Actually, yellow headlamps are still legal in France on any vehicle, no matter when it was registered. Very few vehicles in France have yellow lights any more, but you see one once in awhile. Usually an older model, but not always; occasionally someone goes to the trouble of putting yellow lights on a newer car.

A driving lamp is usually white with a long reaching beam. Cut-off between what is lit and what is not is fairly abrupt.

No, driving lamps generally don't have a distinct light/dark cutoff. That's for low beams and fog lamps.
 
That is (was) a good family of lamps -- very efficient fog, "driving" (aux high beam) and for awhile it also included an aux low beam lamp.




Very correct. There's a giant mountain of junk on the market -- much more junk than good stuff. And of course all of it is marketed as a quality, high-performance upgrade.



Marchal is an extinct brand and Cibie has been teetering back and forth on the edge of extinction; both brand names have belonged to Valeo since the early '70s, a French-based auto parts conglomerate with a long history of making very good lights and spastic, random approaches to selling them in the aftermarket. Numerous parts with one part number...one part with numerous part numbers...stuff you can't buy but it's in the catalog...stuff that's not in the catalog but you can buy it (if you know the part number and happen to talk to the right person at the right office on the right day). They've always been like this. I've lost count of how many ridiculously good lamps they've put out, not catalogued, not promoted, made it difficult to buy, then discontinued because "Well, nobody was buying them". And their killing of the Marchal brand is somewhere on the border between dumb and criminal -- a brand with decades of famous recognition and a perfect logo (cats can see in the dark, get it?) and they decided "Yawn...guess we don't need this any more". In Japan, the trademark rights were bought by a marketing outfit that slaps it on cheap junk from China. Sad. But some of the excellent old Cibie auxiliary lights are still in production, and they've got a really good new line of LED driving lamps.

Hella is a generally reliable German brand with a giant aftermarket product line that is well managed (none of the now-you-see-it/now-you-don't part number and catalog shenanigans), but the Hella name is not necessarily a guarantee of getting a good lamp any more. They've expanded their product line to include cheap Chinese trinkets, too. It's easy enough to avoid the junk, with knowledgeable advice.

Lucas is an old English brand now owned by a marketing company in India. There haven't been any real Lucas car lights made in decades. Through the '70s Lucas were generally known for extremely bad vehicle electrics ("What were Lucas' last words to his wife as he lay on his death bed? 'Don't drive at night!'"…"If Lucas made guns, wars wouldn't start!"…"Why do the English drink warm beer? Because they have Lucas refrigerators!" "Have you heard about the Lucas 3-position switch? Yeah, off-flicker-dim!") although they had some decent lights at that time. In the '80s they put out a burst of innovation including some very good auxiliary fog and driving lamps. By the mid '90s it was all over; the last of the original Lucas company had been sold and resold and resold and the name went away for awhile until it got picked up by the Indians.

PIAA's a Japanese brand. Their entire lighting line is between bad and fraudulent. They spend a lot of money on sexy packaging and breathless hype; their actual products are overhyped junk, but they sponsor race teams and price it stratospherically so people will think "Wow, I saw that name on a race car, and for this much money it's just gotta be good!". Unfortunately, it works—marketing psychology 101. It's the "Slick-50 Effect". You can do a lot better for your money.



It's like anything else: there are some excellent LED auxiliary lamps, some good ones, some decent ones, and a lot of junk. Good lamps are better than bad lamps, no matter what technology they use. There are excellent American-made LED fog and driving lamps from JW Speaker, but they are expensive.



Old-tech fog lamps, yes. Newer designs with complex reflectors have window-clear lenses. (Note "old tech" doesn't mean inferior; there have been many, many old-tech fog lamps that beat the pants off of many new-tech fog lamps.



Fog lamps are defined by their wide beam with a sharp top cutoff.



That's a common myth, but it's not quite correct. See here for the full skinny on yellow fog lamps (and the French yellow-headlamp mandate).



Actually, yellow headlamps are still legal in France on any vehicle, no matter when it was registered. Very few vehicles in France have yellow lights any more, but you see one once in awhile. Usually an older model, but not always; occasionally someone goes to the trouble of putting yellow lights on a newer car.



No, driving lamps generally don't have a distinct light/dark cutoff. That's for low beams and fog lamps.

I`m considering a pair of driving lights in the front splash pan, myself.
 
I`m considering a pair of driving lights in the front splash pan, myself.

Not a good place for them. "Driving" (auxiliary high beam) lamps need to be up near headlamp height to be of any use. It's fog lamps that want to be mounted low.
 
Through the '70s Lucas were generally known for extremely bad vehicle electrics ("What were Lucas' last words to his wife as he lay on his death bed? 'Don't drive at night!'"…"If Lucas made guns, wars wouldn't start!"…"Why do the English drink warm beer? Because they have Lucas refrigerators!" "Have you heard about the Lucas 3-position switch? Yeah, off-flicker-dim!") although they had some decent lights at that time.

LOL. Had not heard those before. Used to call Joseph Lucas "the Prince of Darkness" or refer to the Joseph Lucas Company as the "inventors of darkness". Made some decent money back in HS converting friends' small British sports cars from Lucas generators to GM Delcotrons. Amazing how much better a car runs with a stable, working electrical supply.
 
so, i acquired a 69 valiant grille, you know, the kind NOT made out of plastic

NOW can i mount driving lights in the indicator slots?
 
basically, seeing where im going

the stock headlights are adjusted properly, but just not very bright
 
basically, seeing where im going

the stock headlights are adjusted properly, but just not very bright
I didn`t read all the b.s. in this post. my 02 dodge ram has (clear, not yellow) fog lights mounted low from the factory, many do! the factory calls them fog lights.
 
It's incredible how much bullshit can get piled on to a guy who just wants to add a couple lights to the front of his car. Jesus christ.
 
Upgraded wiring with relays for sure, no matter what lamps you wind up with. There are at least two members on here who can provide you with a parts kit or a built-up relay harness for your headlamps, (CrackedBack and myself) -- don't buy cheap crap, it's not worth risking your life over.

The Night Hawks are the cheapest passably decent headlamp to fit. There are headlamps (much) better than the Night Hawks, but they generally cost (much) more; on the other hand you don't throw 'em away when they burn out, you just replace the bulb. Next step up from Night Hawks is a pretty big step, without spending a mountain of cash; that's this headlamp with these bulbs.
 
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