Fresh engine, wiped cam? Tick? (new pics added)

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I've finally managed to bash one apart despite 37 years worth of varnish and crud. Here's an exploded view of a typical hydraulic lifter for reference.
http://i892.photobucket.com/albums/ac121/doktor_x/crap and stuff/DSC04966.jpg
crap%20and%20stuff
 
As the worm turns....

O.k. sirs... Lets keep in mind... If you watch the video, that part that is circled in blue, is what moves. There is NO spring behind that piece! It is free to move (rattle) as far as the clip will let it.
The other part is all one piece that DOES have a spring, that part DOES NOT move! The thing is it does not move at all, and that is why it was hard to judge pre-load because it didn't move at all! Is it possible that it is just pumped with oil, and that is why it does not move? If that is the case, how can you judge pre-load... and if that IS normal... The lifter is good! You know what I mean Vern?

This is not my lifter by the way, is is someone elses that was posted above.

(Wait a second... There is no circle... I'll get back to you on that...) (Something like this... You'll get the idea... Their is no spring sitting behind the small piece, so it would rattle.)

literapart.jpg
 
I called Lunati again, and showed them the video... He said that was NORMAL!
He also said that the cam looked good. WTF?!?!?!?

I'm thinking I am just going to get new lifters, check the preload, throw it back together, and look for the push rods spinning... and see where I sit from there...

Thank You, Good Night!
 
myasylum said:
I called Lunati again, and showed them the video... He said that was NORMAL!
He also said that the cam looked good. WTF?!?!?!?

I'm thinking I am just going to get new lifters, check the preload, throw it back together, and look for the push rods spinning... and see where I sit from there...

Thank You, Good Night!
Click to expand...

Like I had mentioned before....in all the engines I have built in the passed I have found lifters to do that quite often when they do not have oil pumped up inside.

most people notice there lifters during a rebuild when they are still freshly pumped with oil and assume that thats how they are all the time.

yes I would also say that is normal BUT I think that your lifters are bad in the fact that they probably no longer are holding pressure inside due to to long of a pushrod beating on them since it was built or for some other reason.

But I think its a good bet to get a new set of lifters and figure out if your pushrods are the correct length to match what work has been done to your engine
 
what is normal?? ware pattern.....lifters and or lobe, or the rattling lifters

That spring has to be colasped or the pluger is sticking in the bore.....They fit with vary vary close tallerances but should slide smooth once you get it started back in side its self.
 
mopar340dave said:
Yeah man. Pull it out and send them the cam and lifters. they can assess the degree of damage to the cam and fix you up. It will only cost you shipping and a little extra wrenching. pull the rad and the grill (if needed) and the cam will slide out the front. While you are at it, drop less than $50 on the magnum chain tensioner...money well spent and it bolts in in place of your cam plate.
P5007709
http://www.jimsautoparts.com/mopar_performance_dodge_truck_magnum_engine_parts.htm
Click to expand...

Um. I wouldn't buy from that vendor.
You can get it from Mancini for $39.95 plus shipping.
http://chucker54.stores.yahoo.net/timchainten.html
 
Stroked 340 and 340 833 dart,
I don't know those guys...they just popped up in the search...thanks for the heads up! I was more interested in getting the part number for him if he wants to add that piece. I have bought them from the local dealer. I can call them and they usually have anything I need in a day or two. I only posted the link because the price was better than what I have paid in the past.

Bigdemo1,
His name is actually R. Lee Ermey. I really like him! Great guy, loves America and being American! He is also a real Marine and Vietnam Veteran. That's no act....LOL

You will love this! check it out:
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5b1q-IlxGrk"]YouTube- Space Above and Beyond - Boot Camp[/ame]

And here's the soundboard:
http://www.starmuscle.com/2007/01/full-metal-jacket-soundboard/
 
Myasylum....I think someone else has already suggested this....my bud said you should try soaking them in a cup of oil (old soup can would be good) and use a pushrod to pump them a bit. that may be enough to fill them up and then you could at least check your pushrod length.
At this point I'm kinda thinkin that if you can get them (or at least one or two) to pump up, you can use them to check your pushrod length..and hey, if you can get them to all pump up and act right, use em and see. At least then you can see if the (correct length) pushrods are rotating like they are supposed to.
In case you are wondering, you can change the lifters with the intake on if the need arises...it's a little tricky but I've done it a couple times when I hammered some solid lifters.
 
340dave \\ I have watched mr. ermey on some shows when he was talking about gun's.
He is the best ,and you ether like him or hate him, and i like him because of his sense of humor.
I watched some of the movie clips and lost it.
My father was a fire arms instructor and a police detective and was way old school when it came to things in life.
My dad was not like him at all ,but would be laughing just like me at how funny that guy is.
So many people in this world need to be talked to like that.
It's not that it's really mean or anything, but it makes you snap out of it.
I could not stop laughing.
He's the guy you want around if you where stuck on a island and needed to build a shelter and gather food.
Crude but effective \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ :sleepy2: to :shock:
 
Mopar340 everytime I read one of your replies I hear him,really distinct individual,great actor too.
 
lee ermey is a hard ***......if you enjoy the other clip....this one blows it out of the water!!!!

word to the wise.....if you are not ok with vulgar language or are easily offended..... do not bother watching this video!!!!!!!!!!!

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aUc62jD-G0o"]YouTube- Full Metal Jacket Clip[/ame]

sorry not trying to hijack the thread....just figured I would post while we were on the subject
 
Ok, so I just read through this whole thread...:shock:

Anyway, I thought I'd post up and share a few things. I have a 340 that I'm rebuilding with a Lunati 60404 and lunati lifters.

First off, I haven't installed the lifters yet, so they're all brand new with no oil. All of them rattle when you shake them, but its not because the upper cup is moving, its something else inside the lifter. The upper cup (where the pushrod rides) only moves if I push on it, and it has a pretty decent spring pressure behind it. It does not move if you tip the lifter back and forth as in the video. Seems to me that would indicate the springs inside the lifters are worn out or damaged.

Next- if you do decide to run a 60404, there's absolutely no way I would run it with stock rockers. The stock, stamped steel, non-adjustable rockers were just not intended to deal with that much spring pressure or lift. To be honest, I'm not sure I'd want to run a 60403 with stock rocker gear. I recently pulled a rocker off of the factory stock '71 318 in my Dart that was cracked.

I also have single valve springs installed, I was able to find a spring to match the spring seat pressure and still handle the lift without bind. But if you did upgrade I'd be sure to check your current springs are up to the task, I seem to remember the spring selection narrowing a bit once you get over .5" of lift. However, just for info, Lunati lists the same dual valve springs for their entire mopar Voodoo series, 60401 all the way to 60405, even though an '01 has a lift of .454/.475 and an '05 has a lift of .533/.552.
 
I'm sorry if this seems simple to a lot of you, it's just not to me. Maybe at some point down the road some other simpleton might stumble on to this and figure some this out himself without having to go through this process?
The good thing is that I think I may have found some new friends? :)
I do have some "High School car guys" left around here, one with a Grand National... but he pays too have a lot of the work for him. It gives him a good understanding but not really hands on.
I think I may have a guy coming here on Saturday. I won't have much (real) progress till then...
but... For those who care, (warning) I took two of the lifters apart. The plunger did not come out on it's own, as though the spring was stuck. I used the suction of my finger and pulled the plunger out. When I went to put the lifter back together suddenly I felt pressure from the spring to push it back in place again. Now I have spring tension that I didn't have before, but the oil is gone from the lifter as well.
So, I tried to pump the lifter with oil again, submersing the lifter with oil, and pumping up with a old push rod... The lifter now is not sucking in oil pressure at all, the feel is just the same pressure as the spring tension. I did read somewhere that I am suppose to use a syringe to fill the oil hole with oil, and then pump. Is that true? That might be the issue?

See this is why I thank you guys so much, because only you could have so much patience! :p

I called Lunati again, and ask what lifters they recommend. Ironically they suggest a different lifter then comes with the cam (of course). I looked on the Lunati's web site, and they don't even sell the lifters that come with the cam!

This is the lifter that they recommend: 71977

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/LUN-71977/

I am thinking, that I will get these... Just in case, and I know they are good.

Now these are my lifters that I did take apart... (and thanks as always!)

(oh, I have the plunger backwards... That's not how it came out... :toothy3:)

DSC01491.jpg
 
normally if I cant get a lifter to pump up by manually pumping it in a bucket of oil....I will let it sit for an hour or 2 or overnight and oil will seep in.....just make sure your oil is taller than the height of the lifter so it is full submerged.

I suppose you could suringe oil directly into it.

either way......I guess there not much need in figuring out what was wrong with them if oyu have plans of getting new ones anyhow.

something was wrong with the lifters and most likely do to to long of a pushrod.

if you want to keep the stock pushrod length you have.....get new lifters.....the only thing i can suggest that would stop something liek that from happening again (and would be a nice upgrade also) is to get yourself a set of adjustable rockers rather they be aftermarket with a taller ratio or if you switch over to a stock style set of adjustables......that way YOU set where the lash is rather than bolting it down tight and things binding up.

ACTUALLY....I think a member here on the forum has a nice set of adjustable rockers with shafts and bolts and pushrods and all for $100.00 in the for sale section!.
 
myasylum said:
Man, you guy are going to know more about my engine than I do!!!! I am starting to feel naked!

I do have SOME info...

This is my cam card...

http://www.lunatipower.com/Product.aspx?id=1545&gid=287

and here are my springs... Should this be o.k??

http://www.jegs.com/i/Comp-Cams/249/941-16/10002/-1
Click to expand...

HAHA.....we are all just trying to help because we know everyone would do the same for us....thats why fabo is such a good place.

as for the cam and springs and stuff, I will leave that to someone else because when people start talking duration and lobe seperations and lift and cam circle and blahblahblah ....I get confused real fast lol

when I get a cam ....I look for the most popular one for that application and ask around for the best combo and go with it lol
 
Myasylum, the first lifter you took apart and reassembled....does it now keep the cup spring loaded against the retainer clip? If so, that's what you need to do to the rest of them.
When I spoke to George at Clay Smith Cams, he explained that when the lifter collapses the small cylinder (inside the lifter) that is the hydraulic actuator gets pushed down and the oil ports no longer line up. It can also get stuck down there, but either way, the oil port in the internal cylinder and the oil port in the lifter body are not in the right place in relation to each other. The actuating cylinder needs to come up, otherwise the oil is not even trying to push it up. Does that make sense?
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lorANZ1Tptw"]YouTube- hydraulic tappets (hydraulic lifters)[/ame]

See it in the video? It's possible that the actuating cylinder is pushed down into the lifter far enough that the oil is just not able to get to where it needs to go to push it back up were it belongs. When you opened that one up and put it back together, you put the actuating cylinder back in its operating range.

Does that lifter pump up?



Good general info here:
http://www.musiccityrodshop.com/holpdf/undcam.pdf
 
Your springs (from Comp) have a lot more pressure than Lunati recommends for that cam.
http://www.lunatipower.com/Product.aspx?id=458

Lunati Intro Series™ valve spring set

* Spring Type: Dual w/damper
* Outside Diameter: 1.440 in.
* Inside Diameter: 0.750 in.
* Seat Load: 120 lbs @ 1.650 in.
* Open Load: 265 lbs @ 1.250 in.
* Coil Bind: 0.950 in.
* Spring Rate: 363 lbs/in.

Part Number: 73949

The Comp springs you have:
Comp Cams #249-941-16
# Single Outer Valve Springs O.D.: 1.255"
# I.D.: .871"
# Seat load: 130lbs @1.750"
# Open load: 350lbs @1.250"
# Coil bind: 1.100"
# Rate: 441lbs/in
# With damper

Why didn't you (or they?) use the recommended Lunati springs?
Your cam card lists a kit that contains the springs, lifters , retainers and locks for your cam...
Part #73949K1LUN
 
O.k... Now we are getting into a area I really didn't want to get into. I was doing work for the guy that built my engine, to keep cost down on my end. Since I was working for him (essentially), he called the shots of what he wanted to put into the engine. It was his idea for a stroker, and it sounded good to me, but I had no say so in any of the parts. He just got what he got. Basically, I think he just picked what was cheaper, and that is why. The work I was doing didn't compare to the work that he was doing for me. I think that is how he saw it, and why I really don't feel compelled to go back there, I felt that I was busting my balls. So he basically flipped the bill for half the parts, and he built it, and I worked for him, and paid for the other half that I bought myself (Cam, intake, carb, ect...)
All in all, I believe these springs were picked basically because they were cheaper. If you notice as well, the Lunati springs are larger diameter because they are a dual spring, which would mean that the heads would need extra work done them to get the springs to fit, which means more labor, and more labor = more money. (The odd thing is they had to to this for the comp springs anyway).

So that is how i ended up with some of the parts that are being used.
 
If you run a duel valve spring you have to cut the heads valve guides and were the spring sits on the head around the valve guide.
If the shop did the machine work correctly,then your fine with the springs.
The springs they used will have a specific installed height that the spring company recommends for that spring.
I would check it with a caliper.
:read2::read2::read2::read2::read2::read2::read2::read2::read2::read2::read2::read2::read2::read2::read2::read2::read2::read2::read2::read2::read2::read2::read2::read2::read2::read2:


In the end you need to talk to the shop and find out some info or we will be here for a very long time not knowing the facts.


:read2::read2::read2::read2::read2::read2::read2::read2::read2::read2::read2::read2::read2::read2::read2::read2::read2::read2::read2::read2::read2::read2::read2::read2::read2::read2:

1)HOW MUCH WAS THE BLOCK DECK CUT
2)HOW MUCH WERE THE HEADS CUT
3)DID THEY CUT THE TOP OF THE VALVE GUIDE BOSS AND SPRING PAD FOR DUEL VALVE SPRINGS.
4)DID THEY CHECK THE INSTALLED HEIGHT OF THE VALVE SPRINGS AND DID THEY INSTALL SHIMS TO GET THE CORRECT INSTALLED HEIGHT OF THE SPRING.
5)HAVE YOU INFORMED THE SHOP THAT YOU EVEN HAD A PROBLEM.

They might fix everything for you because it didn't work right in the first place.
It's great to talk with you about your car but if you want it fixed then call the shop and find out what they can do for you and get the information. :homework:
good luck!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
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