Front Suspension Upgrade Recommendations

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Ricks70Duster340

Child of the King
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I just acquired a 72 Challenger that came with a 318 but I'm building a 440 for it. The current front end is very soft so am looking at upgrading to the Bergman 1.14 torsion bars. The front end alignment seems like it needs more caster and I see the adjustment cam is maxed out so look like it will need more help there as well. Looking at the Bergman Gen1 UCA's.

Thoughts?
 
I ran my ‘72 318 Challenger with 1.12” torsion bars for about 70k miles on the street, it’s a good size for handling without being too harsh for the street. You will want a good set of shocks though, I ran mine with KYB’s for quite awhile which was terrible, upgrading to RCD Bilstein’s was a massive improvement in ride quality. The 1.14’s would be pretty similar in wheel rate, they’d do better paired with a modern set of tires than with some skinny 15” all season radials.

I ran CAP and then Hotchkis tubular UCA’s on the Challenger. I run the SPC gen I’s on my Duster, they’re the better option than the Hotchkis UCA’s especially for the street because they’re bushed which holds up better. And they’re more adjustable and they’re adjustable on the car, which makes the alignment a lot easier.
 
I ran my ‘72 318 Challenger with 1.12” torsion bars for about 70k miles on the street, it’s a good size for handling without being too harsh for the street. You will want a good set of shocks though, I ran mine with KYB’s for quite awhile which was terrible, upgrading to RCD Bilstein’s was a massive improvement in ride quality. The 1.14’s would be pretty similar in wheel rate, they’d do better paired with a modern set of tires than with some skinny 15” all season radials.

I ran CAP and then Hotchkis tubular UCA’s on the Challenger. I run the SPC gen I’s on my Duster, they’re the better option than the Hotchkis UCA’s especially for the street because they’re bushed which holds up better. And they’re more adjustable and they’re adjustable on the car, which makes the alignment a lot easier.
Thanks for the info. The tires that came on the car are too big so they hit when I have my wife and children in the car. Front is currently 215/70R15 on 15x7 wheels and in back 255/70R15 on 15x8. Going with a tad smaller tires (205/60 front and 245/60 rear). Am trying to not have to buy new wheels, at least not right now!
 
Thanks for the info. The tires that came on the car are too big so they hit when I have my wife and children in the car. Front is currently 215/70R15 on 15x7 wheels and in back 255/70R15 on 15x8. Going with a tad smaller tires (205/60 front and 245/60 rear). Am trying to not have to buy new wheels, at least not right now!

It won’t be the end of the world or anything, but that’s a pretty high wheel rate for 205’s.

I started out with 225/60/15’s up front with the 1.12’s but spent a lot of those miles with 275/40/17’s on it on all 4 corners.

What do the 215/70/15’s hit?
 
HDK suspension for the street.

Spend $6k, handle no better than with upgraded torsion bars, shocks and control arms for better alignment specs.

Coil overs are just springs and shocks, nothing magical, the geometry isn’t some significant improvement. You get a rack and pinion and a much lighter wallet.
 
It won’t be the end of the world or anything, but that’s a pretty high wheel rate for 205’s.

I started out with 225/60/15’s up front with the 1.12’s but spent a lot of those miles with 275/40/17’s on it on all 4 corners.

What do the 215/70/15’s hit?
When I have a passenger in the car, the passenger tire hits the fender when I crank the wheel to the left.
 
When I have a passenger in the car, the passenger tire hits the fender when I crank the wheel to the left.

Ok, that makes sense. A 215/70/15 is almost 27” tall, which is really tall for the front. With a passenger in the car it’ll sit lower, so, it’s also ride height related. The height is the issue with those tires and not so much the width, if you keep the height close to 26” you can probably go wider. All depending on the backspacing of course, but a 225/60/15 fits easily on an E-body with the right backspacing.
 
I know you are asking about suspension but solid tie rod adjusting sleeves made a huge improvement in steering feel and response. Great bang for your buck, I bought the steel ones from PST with a member discount.
 
My only advice is this. Be careful when making purchases. Not everything is an upgrade. Always remember the factory Mopar suspension is a fantastic format. It can do it all pretty much as is and history shows it has in the past. There ARE lots of nice upgrades out there, but there are also lots of things that are more fluff and nonsense than upgrade.
 
I just acquired a 72 Challenger that came with a 318 but I'm building a 440 for it. The current front end is very soft so am looking at upgrading to the Bergman 1.14 torsion bars. The front end alignment seems like it needs more caster and I see the adjustment cam is maxed out so look like it will need more help there as well. Looking at the Bergman Gen1 UCA's.

Thoughts?
I had a similar caster problem on my 72 Demon avatar car. Cam bolts maxed out and was still 0 to 1 deg in the wrong direction on caster. The car would randomly become very dangerous at the track swerving side to side on its own with the only recourse being to lift and hang on.

Got the Gen1 SPC arms from Peter Bergman. Good guy to deal with and would go to him again. Installed them and put an alignment on the car in my garage. Dialed in about 3 deg of caster on each side. Car has been to the track 4 times since and goes DEAD straight. ZERO of the old swerving issues. Problem solved! These arms make it quite simple to dial in the caster and camber you want. If I could do it, ANYONE could do ir!!
 
I had a similar caster problem on my 72 Demon avatar car. Cam bolts maxed out and was still 0 to 1 deg in the wrong direction on caster. The car would randomly become very dangerous at the track swerving side to side on its own with the only recourse being to lift and hang on.

Got the Gen1 SPC arms from Peter Bergman. Good guy to deal with and would go to him again. Installed them and put an alignment on the car in my garage. Dialed in about 3 deg of caster on each side. Car has been to the track 4 times since and goes DEAD straight. ZERO of the old swerving issues. Problem solved! These arms make it quite simple to dial in the caster and camber you want. If I could do it, ANYONE could do ir!!
I got news. Peter Bergman is a class act. If more businesses were run like he runs his, as corny as it sounds, the world would be a better place. I have a short list of things I need to get from him in the near future.
 
I had a similar caster problem on my 72 Demon avatar car. Cam bolts maxed out and was still 0 to 1 deg in the wrong direction on caster. The car would randomly become very dangerous at the track swerving side to side on its own with the only recourse being to lift and hang on.

Got the Gen1 SPC arms from Peter Bergman. Good guy to deal with and would go to him again. Installed them and put an alignment on the car in my garage. Dialed in about 3 deg of caster on each side. Car has been to the track 4 times since and goes DEAD straight. ZERO of the old swerving issues. Problem solved! These arms make it quite simple to dial in the caster and camber you want. If I could do it, ANYONE could do ir!!
I ended up ordering the UCA's from Peter. Do you have any special equipment to do alignments at home? I've heard a lot of things on how people have done it, but it was just unbelievably frustrating when I tried to do it myself.
 
Ok, that makes sense. A 215/70/15 is almost 27” tall, which is really tall for the front. With a passenger in the car it’ll sit lower, so, it’s also ride height related. The height is the issue with those tires and not so much the width, if you keep the height close to 26” you can probably go wider. All depending on the backspacing of course, but a 225/60/15 fits easily on an E-body with the right backspacing.
The front 15x7 wheels have 3.75 backspace. When I got the car, the driver side was 24 5/8 and the passenger was 25 1/4. I just moved both to 26". After I install the new UCA's from Peter and the torsion bars I'll either do an alignment or have it done. What is your recommended caster/camber or is the skosh chart still the best? I vaguely recall you mentioned in the past how you had a lot more caster than the skosh chart showed.
 
Ok, that’s a little bit light on backspace but on an E it’s not quite as bad as it would be on an A. The current tire height is the larger issue.

The ride height at the fenders is dependent on the tire height so that gets a little complicated, especially with your tall current tire. I ran my Challenger at around ~25 there but that was with 25.7” tall front tires.

The skosh chart is still a good guideline. I do run a lot more caster on my cars, but that has a lot to do with how wide the front tires are. But you can add +1° to +1.5° of caster to the skosh recommendations across the board and not have issues, especially on a power steering csr.
 
Ok, that’s a little bit light on backspace but on an E it’s not quite as bad as it would be on an A. The current tire height is the larger issue.

The ride height at the fenders is dependent on the tire height so that gets a little complicated, especially with your tall current tire. I ran my Challenger at around ~25 there but that was with 25.7” tall front tires.

The skosh chart is still a good guideline. I do run a lot more caster on my cars, but that has a lot to do with how wide the front tires are. But you can add +1° to +1.5° of caster to the skosh recommendations across the board and not have issues, especially on a power steering csr.
Thank you, sir!
 
I ended up ordering the UCA's from Peter. Do you have any special equipment to do alignments at home? I've heard a lot of things on how people have done it, but it was just unbelievably frustrating when I tried to do it myself.
Well, I'm a pretty simple guy and tend to keep things as simple as possible. My methods may not be approved by some of the pro's on here but it sure worked for me so I'm happy to share! "Your results may vary" but I now have a car that goes dead straight at the track and I can focus on racing and not on trying to keep it off the wall or in my lane! Note that I have much wider wheels/tires in back than in the front so I could not use anything that relied on the rear tires for measuring anything.

I used a Joe's Racing Products Caster Camber Gauge set #28210. This gauge uses a strong magnet to hold itself to the front spindle so you have to remove any center caps you might have in order to use it. To measure caster, you have to rotate the wheels from 20 deg to the right to 20 deg to the left. Well how do you measure that without a means to measure the angle of the wheels? As well as a set of frictionless plates or something to allow the front suspension to move freely?

Here's what I did: I attached a couple of 1x3 boards about 5' long with a piano hinge. This allows them to move independent of the other so they can form a "vee." I then opened the vee up until it was at a 20 deg angle and secured them together in that position. Now lay the vee on the floor with the 1" side of each touching the floor (actually a 1x3 is 3/4" on its side) and forming a 20 deg angle between them. I then use this fixed "vee" tool to put some tape lines in the floor by first putting one of the boards up flat against the outside of the RH front tire. The other board is now sticking out at a 20 deg angle to the right. Put some tape on the floor at the board heading straight ahead and the one pointing out at 20 deg. Now when you turn the wheel, I used a 5' level against the outside of the tire again. When that level is parallel to my "vee" board, I know I'm at 20 deg. Prior to turning the wheel, I basically then flipped the board over and did the same thing for turning it in the opposite direction. But I used the inside of the tire since I was going to turn the wheel the opposite direction. Again, tape on the floor. Then I repeated this for the other wheel as well. The tape on the floor allows you to quickly move the vee board back and forth and have the same exact measuring baselines.

Oh, but what about those frictionless plates to allow the front wheels to turn and not bind up? I used some heavy-duty 55 gallon drum garbage can liners. I used 2 per side folded over about 3 times. I found the steering effort with these under the tires to make the steering not frictionless but certainly very low effort to turn.

So you turn the wheels back and forth, get the measurements off the alignment gauge, make the adjustments on the UCA's, and repeat. Over and over until you get what you are looking for. And since I was trying to address a problem at the track, I did this same process a BUNCH of extra times at varying front end lifts using a floor jack under the k-member. Had to guess how much lift I have going down the track - most people say to use about 1" at the end of the track. But my car would sometimes start it's side-to-side "porpoising" even before the 1/8th mile mark so I used front end lifts from 1" to 3". Just because I could and I was learning how to make all these adjustments.

Reading back through this, it sounds MUCH more complicated than it was to do. You basically need a way to measure each front wheel turning 20 deg in each direction. I used a homemade wooden vee and a 5' level to get parallel lines to determine when I was at 20 deg. And I used HD thick plastic garbage bags to make my "frictionless" turn plates. (I've seen some say they used a pair of cookie sheets with grease between them too!) Again, "your results may vary" but using my rudimentary setup, I dialed in +3 deg of caster and set the camber to 0 deg. My car is a manual steer car and I cannot tell a difference in steering effort although coming from 0 to neg 1 deg caster where I was, I have to believe the effort went up. Just not enough for me to tell. These new UCA's and the settings I did gave me a car that leaves straight and goes straight and allows me to enjoy some racing. Helped me go 4 rounds in each of the 3 times at the track we've had in the last 6 weeks. And driving it on the street, I see no negative effects (speeds are much lower so I never really had issues before there anyway!) And I now know how and can easily make adjustments should I need to in the future.

Hope this helps!
 
Well, I'm a pretty simple guy and tend to keep things as simple as possible. My methods may not be approved by some of the pro's on here but it sure worked for me so I'm happy to share! "Your results may vary" but I now have a car that goes dead straight at the track and I can focus on racing and not on trying to keep it off the wall or in my lane! Note that I have much wider wheels/tires in back than in the front so I could not use anything that relied on the rear tires for measuring anything.

I used a Joe's Racing Products Caster Camber Gauge set #28210. This gauge uses a strong magnet to hold itself to the front spindle so you have to remove any center caps you might have in order to use it. To measure caster, you have to rotate the wheels from 20 deg to the right to 20 deg to the left. Well how do you measure that without a means to measure the angle of the wheels? As well as a set of frictionless plates or something to allow the front suspension to move freely?

Here's what I did: I attached a couple of 1x3 boards about 5' long with a piano hinge. This allows them to move independent of the other so they can form a "vee." I then opened the vee up until it was at a 20 deg angle and secured them together in that position. Now lay the vee on the floor with the 1" side of each touching the floor (actually a 1x3 is 3/4" on its side) and forming a 20 deg angle between them. I then use this fixed "vee" tool to put some tape lines in the floor by first putting one of the boards up flat against the outside of the RH front tire. The other board is now sticking out at a 20 deg angle to the right. Put some tape on the floor at the board heading straight ahead and the one pointing out at 20 deg. Now when you turn the wheel, I used a 5' level against the outside of the tire again. When that level is parallel to my "vee" board, I know I'm at 20 deg. Prior to turning the wheel, I basically then flipped the board over and did the same thing for turning it in the opposite direction. But I used the inside of the tire since I was going to turn the wheel the opposite direction. Again, tape on the floor. Then I repeated this for the other wheel as well. The tape on the floor allows you to quickly move the vee board back and forth and have the same exact measuring baselines.

Oh, but what about those frictionless plates to allow the front wheels to turn and not bind up? I used some heavy-duty 55 gallon drum garbage can liners. I used 2 per side folded over about 3 times. I found the steering effort with these under the tires to make the steering not frictionless but certainly very low effort to turn.

So you turn the wheels back and forth, get the measurements off the alignment gauge, make the adjustments on the UCA's, and repeat. Over and over until you get what you are looking for. And since I was trying to address a problem at the track, I did this same process a BUNCH of extra times at varying front end lifts using a floor jack under the k-member. Had to guess how much lift I have going down the track - most people say to use about 1" at the end of the track. But my car would sometimes start it's side-to-side "porpoising" even before the 1/8th mile mark so I used front end lifts from 1" to 3". Just because I could and I was learning how to make all these adjustments.

Reading back through this, it sounds MUCH more complicated than it was to do. You basically need a way to measure each front wheel turning 20 deg in each direction. I used a homemade wooden vee and a 5' level to get parallel lines to determine when I was at 20 deg. And I used HD thick plastic garbage bags to make my "frictionless" turn plates. (I've seen some say they used a pair of cookie sheets with grease between them too!) Again, "your results may vary" but using my rudimentary setup, I dialed in +3 deg of caster and set the camber to 0 deg. My car is a manual steer car and I cannot tell a difference in steering effort although coming from 0 to neg 1 deg caster where I was, I have to believe the effort went up. Just not enough for me to tell. These new UCA's and the settings I did gave me a car that leaves straight and goes straight and allows me to enjoy some racing. Helped me go 4 rounds in each of the 3 times at the track we've had in the last 6 weeks. And driving it on the street, I see no negative effects (speeds are much lower so I never really had issues before there anyway!) And I now know how and can easily make adjustments should I need to in the future.

Hope this helps!
Thank you for the detailed info!
 
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