Getting the most out of a low comp 440

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DavidWymore

D100=Abody?
Joined
Nov 8, 2013
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Location
SE Cal Desert
First engine build, I want to do my homework to get the most out of the engine for the least coin and to avoid mistakes. I've been reading up on 440s online for a couple weeks and have 3 books on them in the mail from Amazon. Decided to join this forum as is seems to be about the best place for 440 tech. Devil's in the details, so I'm trying to nail them all down, sorry it's a bit long.


What I have :


'77 440, disassembled, ran ok but smoked before the HG blew due to some loose and one broken head bolt. Never got to drive the truck with it in it, so don't have a feel for how a stock 440 would run.

850 CFM Tquad from long time carb man Rick Walker in SD.

Stock intake

Stock 452 heads

Block - cylinders are worn a few thou, front pass is the worst, .009"

Pistons down in the hole probably .150" (need to double check)

Stock cam, .010" bent in the center, bend discovered while determining lobe lift in a lathe.

Looks to be factory double roller timing chain, sprockets probably OK, chain very slack.

Cast crank, .020" under rods and mains, bearings worn to copper.

Unknown long tube headers. (need to check size)

Pics

http://s142.photobucket.com/user/DavidWhymore/library/440?sort=3&page=1


Vehicle :

'70 Shortbed D100 weighs ~4000#

727 (Will consider converter change, maybe a 4spd or switch to NV4500 I have)

Currently 3.55 8-3/4", 4.10 Detroit locked D60 waiting in the wings, along with a Browning-Lipe auxiliary transmission, 2:1 underdrive, direct, .73 OD.

Vehicle use/environment: Below sea level, triple digit summers, will get AC. 87 octane

Daily driver, cruiser, hotrod, maybe some light towing, trips to local desert/sand dunes if/when I get some paddles for the back. Trips up hot, steep grade from desert over 4000ft mntns to San Diego.

Experience: 15 years playing with 4x4s. '81 CJ-7, I-6, locked D44s, 35"s

'88Blazer, TBI 5.7, locked D60s, 39"s

'95 Ram 2500 Cummins, locked, 39"s 434 hp/800tq

Couple stock V6 4runners, 3.4L and 4.0L

I have always done all my own wrenching and fabbing at the family shop except for major engine work/builds.

Abilities/tools: General (non-auto) machine shop. I don't have a setup to bore the cylinders accurately, but I could make a fixture to deck the block and heads. I have a mostly retired friend who does have automotive machining capabilities, but may no be able to get him to do much, and I have no other machine shops in my area.

Theories/options: (open to input)

I've kicked a lot of stuff around (new pistons for quench, Stealth heads, etc. to hopefully raise compression for mpg and power efficiency) and come back to hopefully throwing rings and bearings in it, annealing the stock shim head gaskets, and putting it back together, with a cam change to try to increase cylinder pressure and maximize performance of the setup. I don't want a motorhome or 1 ton truck low RPM only stump puller like my Jeep, but I don't want a high RPM hp only engine either like the Toyota V6s.

I could mill the heads, up to .060", some guys go up to .120" is what I've read, but risky. Not sure how much I can raise compression without quench on 87. Not sure how much I could deck block, maybe .050"??? Shorten pushrods or shim rocker shafts.

Input much appreciated, thanks!
 
I'm knocking my head against a brick wall trying to design a build/compression ratio without quench around the 87 octane. I wouldn't mind having to play with the ignition timing according to fuel and usage.
 
DavidWymore said:
I'm knocking my head against a brick wall trying to design a build/compression ratio without quench around the 87 octane. I wouldn't mind having to play with the ignition timing according to fuel and usage.
Click to expand...
I hear ya brother..I've done the same thing more than once..recent thread on 440 stock rebuilds had some ideas...on this site started by ABODYBOMBER...
 
It's for a truck with mild gearing that might need to tow in triple digit heat. I'd get some forged pistons and keep the static below 9.5:1. That, a cam, and some bolt ons is about all your need and assuming there's 4.10s and some good traction you should have no issues running into the 12s with it too.
 
Well...it's first a daily driver (87 octane, willing to adjust timing to usage and fuel)...then a cruiser/hotrodder. May or may not ever make it to the drag strip...2 hours away over the mountains, a trip I'd like it to be able to take. Want to be able to jump in and go about anywhere.

I say "truck" and "towing" very lightly. I have diesels at work I can use for any real towing, and at 4k#, it's really more of a heavy car, no?

At the moment, I'm planning to run the stock pistons at maybe 8.5-9, maybe even just leave it at what it probably is, 7.5. I can play with compression with the big mill at work and head gasket thickness. I don't have access to, or want to spend the coin on boring the block, and buying pistons. I'm not broke, but I have a budget...

Might be able to do bigger valves and plunge cut the 452 heads.

I think the last piece of the puzzle I need to figure out is RPM/torque range = cam selection.

Is there a detonation resistance inherent to forged vs. cast pistons?

Much obliged, I enjoy learning about it, and hopefully all the learning will produce a good all-around engine.
 
I thought of another piece of the puzzle, or better expression of goals rather. 0-60 time/acceleration, freeway onramp, and passing speed are the goals...not necessarily 1/4 mile times. Anyone taking a Sweptline much over 100mph is a little crazy, as Dick Boynton found out with his Flying Barn Door years ago.


I'm going home to read the pile of Mopar BB books that showed up in the mail today.
 
I'd say just stay away from long duration cams. You can easily make 400 on that bottom end. There was just a post on this a couple weeks back with dyno testing power adders. A mild cam, intake, headers, and light stock head porting made a 1:1 motor.
 
Please pardon my rambling, thinking out loud here, input appreciated.

I have never had my 440 running and driving in my truck, or any 440 in any vehicle, closest would be a clapped out 454 in an '80 crewcab dually 4x4 shivy, (waaay heavier than my truck) so I have almost no idea what seat of the pants is going to be like with a basically stock engine and the various cams that are out there.

I have also never swapped cams, or done an engine build...n00b!

I'd like to learn how to specifically match the various specs of the came to the specifics of the vehicle and rest of drivetrain. All the articles I have found explain the various terms, etc., but info on matching them up is pretty ambiguous due to the many different possible combinations and uses.

I had another idea. Maybe I'm crazy, but (esp for me) there's nothing like hands on experience...and I just found out I have a chassis dyno semi-local to me. Summit lists two "house brand" cams for the 440...basically a low RPM RV and a higher RPM cam...for peanut$, half the cost of most other cams. Why not do my stock rebuild, rings and bearings, order both cams, put 'em in and try them. I need a timing set, so I can get an adjustable one and play with and learn the effects in the real world of advance and retard. I'm also really liking the idea of Rhoads lifters at least for the "bigger" cam.

Closest large city is San Diego, my local machinist recommended Schneider cams there, and my carb guy is there. Any experience with them?

Thanks!
 
Well if you follow IQ with his results you cant go wrong,I tend to overthink some builds in the past and got way tripped up, about the cams you mentioned and the dyno time I really think it's whatever you want to do but the puddings already been made and it's proven pretty good and if you havent ever done any wrenching and busted knuckle's on a MOPAR or changed a cam,carbs, or intake,ripped off a few sets of heads and had your hair soaked in rear end oil then you havent lived yet,and the only way your going to know is ..do it..need to invest in lots of hand tools,hand cleaner,silicone,gaskets,oil,floordry[kitty litter] and lots of parts to mix and match and some phone numbers to call when sh$t aint working right and you cant seem to figure out why, and you're about ready to drink antifreeze to ease the pain at 3am, and its starting to rain and you got crap scattered everywhere...yes those were the days... not..I had to learn almost everything the hard way...nowadays I tend to just watch and learn before I do a damn thing, i think about it and get refreshed on what I forgot put myself a plan together that I know is going to get the desired results,compile all the necessary ingredients and get mentally prepped and maybe get it done 6mths later,maybe...I dont move so fast anymore am not able to do much at a time so I have to make it count...point is figure out what you want to do with what youre gonna do it with and go with something proven to work and make it happen,then do your changes or improvements or tweaking to your own liking after you got a good solid base to build off of...not meaning to sound like father time here but if you start experimenting on unknown or unfamiliar builds you can get in trouble real quik and spend alot of time and money you dont have to...since you stated you never done it before, it's worth listening to all the old gearheads who can help you abunch if you let them..you are me 40yrs ago..so good luck with your build keep us posted...
 
Hey, I preciate the input, and don't get me wrong, I'm not saying I don't think anyone here knows what they're doing...exactly the opposite, that's why I'm here, it's just that I think camshaft choice has a lot to do with how the car feels, where and how it pulls...and I have no point of reference. I now really wish I had just run the 440 as it was so I had a starting point. One can only learn so much from reading and schooling...at some point, you gotta get your hands dirty. I've built 4x4s as a hobby for 15 years and worked in and run the family machine and welding shop the same amount of time...won't be my first time turning wrenches for sure, just the first time in an engine's guts.
 
Gotcha...i was thinking you hadnt wrenched before, but if you've been working in a machine shop and welding then you def know what grease and busted knuckles are...and I wasnt grinding on ya just relating my experiences...I'd rather turn a wrench than do welding all day been there done that...both of them is dirtywork...so back to the 440...lol...I got some 516 heads for real cheap if you go that route...these were boiled out ,magged and cleaned up,started some minor porting on one head and never finished[5-6yrs back] and never will so cheap as in u pay the shpg costs you can have them if interested for your build...just a 1 time only you offer so dont everyone start pm'g me wanting me to be a santa...
 
As you said - it's the combination that makes or breaks the engine and truck. And - combinations are as varied as trucks and cars...
I suggested forged pistons because in a towing rig (even "mild towing" there may be a tendency to try and ping if you get some bad gas. Low compression or not. Forged will put up with more abuse... hence the recommendation.
But - if you want to leave it along that's fine too. In my opinion I'd spend a little more for a more modern grind that's made to work with low compression. Either summit cam will work. But I'd run a Comp XE262 and a set of MP Hemi springs. Fairly cheap and charming and will make more steam than the Summits with no downsides.
 
EDIT: posted this before I saw the two above posts.

My ears are still wide open...like I said,

"I'd like to learn how to specifically match the various specs of the came to the specifics of the vehicle and rest of drivetrain. All the articles I have found explain the various terms, etc., but info on matching them up is pretty ambiguous due to the many different possible combinations and uses"

....and that info is also how some people make their living, and they may or may not be very free with it. I run basically a huge repair/fab shop, if it's metal we work on it, so I understand.

I spoke to Schneider this afternoon, and he said once I get my my combo figured out, he can grind me up one just for me. Answered any questions I could think to ask.

Also talked to a 727 guy, he said stock stall is probably 1600-1800, and for a perf cam, I should probably go 2500....gotta make the whole package work! I do know that much, just need to figure out the details in matching it all up and decide exactly how far I want to go...how far I can get on my labor, no $, and how far I want to go after that with $ for other people's parts and labor.
 
Schneider recommended 9:1 to get some pep out of it, which according to online CR calcs, shouldn't be hard to get by milling. I have measuring to do when I get the parts out of the bath.



Towing might be pulling a little pickup bed trailer to the dump or desert on flat ground. I don't tow more than a few hundred pounds with a shortbed half ton and only on flat 55mph country roads.

I don't intend to cruise around pinging the thing like an idiot. I don't have a problem stopping and backing off timing if things get out of hand, or backing up the compression with gaskets if it gets to be a consistent problem....or am I missing something? :)
 
rbdart said:
Gotcha...i was thinking you hadnt wrenched before, but if you've been working in a machine shop and welding then you def know what grease and busted knuckles are...and I wasnt grinding on ya just relating my experiences...I'd rather turn a wrench than do welding all day been there done that...both of them is dirtywork...so back to the 440...lol...I got some 516 heads for real cheap if you go that route...these were boiled out ,magged and cleaned up,started some minor porting on one head and never finished[5-6yrs back] and never will so cheap as in u pay the shpg costs you can have them if interested for your build...just a 1 time only you offer so dont everyone start pm'g me wanting me to be a santa...
Click to expand...

Rb, any idea what valves and how many ccs they are?
 
Are you going to use different than the stock pistons? If not, you will have to mill a LOT. The stock compression will blueprint into the 7s. That's two points to make up. That a lotta milling. Probably on the order of .150". The cost of milling alone would probably be more than buying a nice set of Six Pack pistons.
 
Just for fun :


Cruising the local countryside where I drive it most of the time. Work commute is a few blocks. Rattlecan black was someone else's doing...wish it was all still original white.



A/C by Rustoleum. Real AC next summer.






A romp in the local dunes...will try to scrounge up some cheap paddles once I get the 440 in.
 
I'll swap you my Coronet for it. lol
 
RustyRatRod said:
Are you going to use different than the stock pistons? If not, you will have to mill a LOT. The stock compression will blueprint into the 7s. That's two points to make up. That a lotta milling. Probably on the order of .150". The cost of milling alone would probably be more than buying a nice set of Six Pack pistons.
Click to expand...


Milling is FREE! I have a general machine shop, remember. I just don't have an engine cylinder boring machine - trying to make use of what I got to save $. Heck, I have a big enough vertical lathe, I could TURN the block and heads to trim 'em down, haha!

.060" Is max for heads per Mopar IIRC, maybe a few more off the block, wouldn't hurt to square it up if it isn't.

I think I can also go bigger valves and plunge cut for cost of tooling...unless IQ talks me out of it. :D

I have crunched rough comp/milling numbers, and will more carefully...ain't going in blind!
 
Mopar has not held the heads I have. They were milled according to Don Dulmage's book. They were milled so much that they felt fragile. Because they WERE. I think they had been milled approaching 1/4" if I remember right.
 
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