Going EFI. Can't decide

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mini

Small Bore Long Stroke
Joined
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Hey guys

So after somewhat mastering carburetors, I'm bored of them and sick of them. I want something new for my new build. 318/390 248/248 @.050 .525 lift. 9.78:1 340 X heads ported 2.02 1.60. Scat rotating assembly. Icon pistons.

I need an intake anyways, so I was wondering if anyone has done a megasquirt with direct injection. And wondering where the best place is to buy a direct injection LA intake. I can always do the easy route and go with atomic efi ect. But I want a challenge. I'm good with electrics.

Also a bad carb fire has me turned off.
 
Isn't direct injection introduced via the cylinder head directly into the cylinder?
An intake with the bosses for F.I. Can be found easy enough. You could do a F.I. That way. SMPI.
 
Edelbrock Victor EFI is the only intake I know of for the LA engine with injector bosses. Although you could have injector bosses welded into almost any intake.
 
There are a lot of places that will weld bosses in any intake you want for a reasonable price. I found half a dozen of them with a 20 minute search on Google. Not sure about the aftermarket EFI stuff, but I love the modified 5.9 Magnum OBDII EFI on my '68 stroked 5.9 Magnum.
 
Thanks for input. I will do some more searching. Anyone running megasquirt ?
 
Hey guys

So after somewhat mastering carburetors, I'm bored of them and sick of them. I want something new for my new build. 318/390 248/248 @.050 .525 lift. 9.78:1 340 X heads ported 2.02 1.60. Scat rotating assembly. Icon pistons.

I need an intake anyways, so I was wondering if anyone has done a megasquirt with direct injection. And wondering where the best place is to buy a direct injection LA intake. I can always do the easy route and go with atomic efi ect. But I want a challenge. I'm good with electrics.

Also a bad carb fire has me turned off.

Isn't direct injection introduced via the cylinder head directly into the cylinder?
An intake with the bosses for F.I. Can be found easy enough. You could do a F.I. That way. SMPI.

Yes Rumblefish360, Direct injection is an injector located directly in the cylinder head and allows for "direct injection" of high pressure fuel into the cylinder.

Mini, I'm sure your referring to Multi-port fuel injection, with a single injector per a cylinder located in the intake runners. You can make almost any intake fuel injected by adding injector bungs.
 
Multi-port injection is what I meant to say. I didnt know how difficult it was. Wasnt sure about injector angles and if you need custom fuel rails for different spacing of injectors.
 
Yes Rumblefish360, Direct injection is an injector located directly in the cylinder head and allows for "direct injection" of high pressure fuel into the cylinder.

Yes, and you need a large mechanically driven pump too, to boost the pressure to over 1200 psi, on the turbo mazda you dare not go lower than 1700 PSI at WOT or Zoom Zoom Boom. I'll never own another GDI Engine (Gas Direct Injection) as the valves need cleaned since no more fuel from the port EFI to keep them clean. Mine at 118k looked like someone squeezed a carbon turd around them.
 
EFI is on my roadmap as well. All my previous project cars have been EFI and though I never delved into mapping or programming them, building up a standalone EFI powerplant has long been a dream of mine.

Thus when I got my A body, I went searching and the best walkthrough, so to speak, I found was this: http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,99432.0.html

It's even in a BB Mopar ;)

The DIY route isn't terribly difficult, but does require lots of effort to scrounge the needed parts and if you want to keep it under a tight budget cap most of that scrounging will take place in junkyards rather than online. The fabrication work tends to be relatively minor, the biggest one being injector bungs in the manifold since EFI manifolds tend to leave fewer choices in the aftermarket. Injector placement depends mostly on the convenience of the fuel rail. Closer/farther and angle relative the port don't have huge effects, and the effects they have tend to be RPM dependent. Reliability and a decent idle tends to favor closer to the head and about 45-60 degrees relative the port flow direction with enough protrusion to get the fuel into the air (rather than on the wall of the port) without being a major airflow obstruction. Adding the proper fuel system to the tank is about as much work as the intake, depending on the fabrication tools one has access to.

Sequential fuel injection has benefits, but typically only at lower RPM since the pulse width of the fuel pulse at higher revs will tend to last longer than the valve opening event. As a result, batch fire can be "just as good" as sequential unless max MPG and efficiency is the goal. Sequential typically requires higher flowing injectors as well, since they're (typically) only firing once per valve event vs batch fire. This can have a deleterious effect on idle quality since high flow injectors tend to not flow nicely down low. So the benefits can be quickly outweighed depending on the nature of the engine build. Luckily, it's easier to make a sequential system operate in batch-fire mode than to upgrade a batch-fire system to sequential...

The ignition tends to be the trickier part of the equation, but also isn't rocket surgery. If/when I do my own system I plan to keep the distributor (batch fire with crank trigger only) until I get a handle on things, then expand to ignition. It's mostly a cost and learning curve issue.

As with most things, how much capability you need depends on what you intend to do with it. An EFI system for a mostly strip oriented car will be very different from a grocery getter. Wanting to map and program the ignition vs keeping a distributor is also dependent on goals. Knock sensors can be utilized to get the most out of a timing map, and the programmable ignition makes it easier to compensate for crappy gas in a roadtrip type car.
 
To narrow it down, I will be using parts Ive already purchased. MSD dist. Locked out. An MSD 6a ( I have a 6al 2 programmable NIB but since efi controls timing it isnt going to be used for full potential so ill likely sell it)

Would it be much difference in drivebility if I chose tbi instead for ease of headaches.
 
To narrow it down, I will be using parts Ive already purchased. MSD dist. Locked out. An MSD 6a ( I have a 6al 2 programmable NIB but since efi controls timing it isnt going to be used for full potential so ill likely sell it)

Would it be much difference in drivebility if I chose tbi instead for ease of headaches.

TBI will basically be an electronic carb. It can work, but you won't realize as many of the benefits (ability to optimize each cylinder, for example). On the street, the only implication would be reduced MPG versus port injection (assuming both systems get extensive tuning/mapping tweaks to get best low and part throttle operation). In reality the differences will be minor and it should still work at least as well as a moderate flow carb.
 
Great idea. I am going to run the Holley "wet system" vs. a port injection just to simplify the process. There are many companies available it's just that they are not "bolt-on". Check out: http://www.affordable-fuel-injection.com/ixxocart/catalog/Mopar-33-1.html

The beauty of the multi-port is the turning properties. Old Fox-bodies were the first to really make a simple tunable system, compared to today's standards they are somewhat old, but still work well. They used a MAF meter in the air stream to aid in tuning system. Where the GM TPI was a speedensity that did not require a MAF. Blah blah right? Today computer hardware has made it so easy to get what you want out of FI.

Good luck...
 
Thinking of using Alpha N set up for idle. Ive been reading about having a large duration cam will skew a/f and maf because of low irratic intake pressures and unburnt oxygen passing through the exhaust.
 
TBI will basically be an electronic carb. . In reality the differences will be minor and it should still work at least as well as a moderate flow carb.

Personally I think TBI gets an bad rap. When TBI was being used, computers weren't "what they are now," or maybe a better way is saying the OEMs hadn't put enough "into" them like they (finally) are now.

A TBI can be made to perform VERY well, and with some experimenting nowadays with whatever-you-call-it spraying into the tops of the air horns, this in effect gets right back to............

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DwG7ppkvyIA"]Kinsler Top Feed Injection - YouTube[/ame]

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y2iBbwocYZw"]Renault F1 Engine - YouTube[/ame]
 
Personally I think TBI gets an bad rap. When TBI was being used, computers weren't "what they are now," or maybe a better way is saying the OEMs hadn't put enough "into" them like they (finally) are now.

A TBI can be made to perform VERY well, and with some experimenting nowadays with whatever-you-call-it spraying into the tops of the air horns, this in effect gets right back to............

Kinsler Top Feed Injection - YouTube

Renault F1 Engine - YouTube

I think you're absolutely right. TBI can work great, but it was quickly eclipsed by technological progress which went to MPFI pretty quick. Mostly because for an OEM to make a manifold with ports that flow wet within a reasonable percentage over the entire flow range costs more than tweaking the fuel delivery schedule to keep lean cylinders alive. Look at the chryco turbo 4s from the 80s: cyls 1&2 would run up to 20% more (less? I forget now) fuel to make up for a crap manifold.

High rpm (drag racing, big ovals) benefit from having the injector a long ways away from the valve too, so TBI can work better there so long as the manifold isn't junk..

All.comes down to application, as with so many choices when building an engine.
 
There are a few used tbi's on ebay from the fast efi kit. I believe they have tps as well. Good starting point? Having the injectors farther downstream makes sense for fuel atomization.
 
Those fogger injectors are used past 6000 RPM, you want your injectors close to the ports. MS2 MSnS firmware can do fuel and spark timing and can do TBI also, just use the 2 injector option.PM racingsnake440, he showed me a SB Holley street dominator bunged for EFI that he might sell. if your good with electronics and wiring, look at a EEC4 off a Ford product, they almost self tune.
 
I'll be running the Edelbrock manifold and throttle body with an eMS-Pro controlling fuel and timing. I have all the parts now and should be installing it shortly. I will try to document the install as I go.

Here is what the setup looks like.





 
Purchased a fast throttle body with 4 injectors. The beauty of it is is comes with tps iac iacv!
 
I'll be running the Edelbrock manifold and throttle body with an eMS-Pro controlling fuel and timing. I have all the parts now and should be installing it shortly. I will try to document the install as I go.

Here is what the setup looks like.

EFIintake2_zps85e50965.jpg

72 Demon, where are you planning to mount the air temp sensor? How about the MAP sensor? Also, how is the overall height for an A-body? I would want it to fit under a stock Cuda hood. I like the setup and am planning to do something similar.
 
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