Guns, Dogs and Blades QnA

[Sublime one]

Shouldn't need a dot or a sight.

So not to stir the pot but depending on which set of statistics you look at, we have accumulated a wealth of empirical evidence via body cams and video etc that indicates that 80 some odd percent of the defensive shooting in this Country occur at aprox seven yards. The great majority of concealed carry holders are incapable of precise fire (unsighted) at that range and must rely upon either sights or an aiming device to execute a precise defensive shot at that range? Thus the need in fact for either sighted fire or a red dot.

 

[Bodyperson]

I can help you with that! We just got done teaching a whole class of noobs with red dots today. And I mean noobs. Showed up, not zeroed, sights falling off pistols due to incorrect install. Hour plus to acquire zero. Loose optics. You name it I encountered it today. Holy Crap what a long day. Pix of my fellow instructor.

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Those reticles must take a beating. Man would I love to have some of your training.

 

[fishmens67]

My dad was an instructor at Quantico in the early 60's. Funny thing he taught me to fire shotgun and pistol without using a sight.
Learned shotgun by shooting trap. I've found that eye dominance can be an issue when shooting shotgun and pistol

 

[Bodyperson]

My dad was an instructor at Quantico in the early 60's. Funny thing he taught me to fire shotgun and pistol without using a sight.
Learned shotgun by shooting trap. I've found that eye dominance can be an issue when shooting shotgun and pistol

I practice eye dominance while using my spotting scope. It gets tiring with one eye.

 

[Sublime one]

Here is a very easy way to verify eye dominance, extend both arms fully and bring your hands together, palms facing out, creating a small slot to look thru where the web of your hands meet. Then focus on something about ten to fifteen feet away. Without moving your head or your focus on the object slowly and carefully bring your joined hands back to your face while not loosing focus on the object. Your hands will end up in front of your dominant eye. Many of my students do not know which eye is their dominant eye. Just because you are right or left handed does not mean you have a corresponding eye dominance. Many folks are what is called cross eye dominant, example: shoot pistol with right hand while left eye is dominant. Not a big deal really once you recognize it. But can create issues “finding the dot” on presentation.

 

[Sublime one]

Those reticles must take a beating. Man would I love to have some of your training.

We beat the literal stuffing out of them, they are used as handles to manipulate slide etc. The optics of just a few years ago could not endure. Most everything made today by the larger companies simply do not fail very often. The technology gained from sand box has permeated the civilian market. We just don’t see many failures anymore from the latest generation. Early on holding zero was a thing, now you can literally take them off and put them back on and for the most part they hold zero. I do not suggest doing this and not verifying zero!

 

[pauly]

That Robert’s load is a classic. Man what a caliber. One of my favorites, totally under rated.

Yes, it is! I have my dad’s Remington M722 in .257 and I have a Remington 700 Mountain Rifle in it, too. Very effective on white tails!!

 

[Mattax]

As I've come across references to training 'point' shooting, the preference generally seems to have been to teach fundemental positions and aiming first. However there was at least one study (At Ft Hood IIRC) where the platoon taught point shooting first, overall did better. This was during WW2 as they developed combat training for infantry, tank destroyers and other MOS most likely to see small arms combat. They also had to train as many men as possible in the facility avialable, so they wanted to see if they could run both phases at the same time and then switch. The USMC also had 'familiarization' courses which were short, somewhat low round count, and more close combat oriented. However these all were in addition to and following rifle qualification. Of course in a military context rifles are the main weapon, and being able to estimate range, make adjustments and hit targets out to 500 yards is pretty important.
After WW2, the idea of some sort of combat point shooting did not disappear. Trainfire shows up in the 1950s and continued in various versions.

I'm aware of one well recognized trainer today who has advocated for point shooting with novices first. There may be more nuance to that -and Sublime One has taken and passed his instructor courses so I'm sure he knows a lot more about it than I.
I personally use sights (when available) because (a) that's how I was taught (b) with sights I can self-coach to some degree.

 

[fishmens67]

at 15' a novice shooter is probably too late , at 7 yards you better be on your game.

 

[WV64Signet]

at 15' a novice shooter is probably too late , at 7 yards you better be on your game.

The legal argument at 7' is proportionally easier than 15' as well

 

[MMissile]

We beat the literal stuffing out of them, they are used as handles to manipulate slide etc. The optics of just a few years ago could not endure. Most everything made today by the larger companies simply do not fail very often. The technology gained from sand box has permeated the civilian market. We just don’t see many failures anymore from the latest generation. Early on holding zero was a thing, now you can literally take them off and put them back on and for the most part they hold zero. I do not suggest doing this and not verifying zero!

I have two optics that were well used in the middle-east. An EOTECH and a Elcan DR. Both look like they've been thru battles, and survived with only the little irons on the top of the Elcan being broke off. I personally know where they came from. They were battle-used...often.

 

[Sublime one]

I have two optics that were well used in the middle-east. An EOTECH and a Elcan DR. Both look like they've been thru battles, and survived with only the little irons on the top of the Elcan being broke off. I personally know where they came from. They were battle-used...often.

I too am rocking an old EOTECH on one of my Carbines. Butt ugly, scratched dented and dinged. Totally reliable! Glad it can’t talk!

 

[MMissile]

I too am rocking an old EOTECH on one of my Carbines. Butt ugly, scratched dented and dinged. Totally reliable! Glad it can’t talk!

Mine has dust in it, finer than anything I've seen. I sent it to my friend in the sandbox as a gift, when he was having problems with his Aimpoint. He brought it back for me [battle-used], and I gave him a new one.

 

[Sublime one]

Mine has dust in it, finer than anything I've seen. I sent it to my friend in the sandbox as a gift, when he was having problems with his Aimpoint. He brought it back for me [battle-used], and I gave him a new one.

That sand has a way of getting in everything, perhaps even empty whiskey bottles wrapped carefully in clothes and put in your sea bag to save as a momento? Which of course is then tossed out of the plane under a chute on a pallet with the rest of your luggage when you get home. Resulting in broken glass and sand in everything you own that was in said sea bag. Ah the brilliance of youth!

 

[Sublime one]

Heads up any of y’all in the South or Midwest, the largest gun show in the world (literally) is next month in Tulsa Ok. They hold it twice a year. Over six miles of tables under 11 acres roofed, heated, and cooled at the expo center in Tulsa. It is April 1/2 this year for Spring show. If you have never been it is an amazing show. We use radios to communicate as it is that kind of crazy. We all pool our grocery lists each guy gets a copy then we split up to search and destroy. It just a total hoot. There is just no way to see the whole show. They try and group like items in like areas, but not so much. You see something on the list you ping the boys with location and move on. It is the kind of show where you can start the morning with a Ruger 22 revolver and trade up all day and walk out with a model 29!

 

[jaws]

On my bucket list to go to it

 

[doogievlg]

So not to stir the pot but depending on which set of statistics you look at, we have accumulated a wealth of empirical evidence via body cams and video etc that indicates that 80 some odd percent of the defensive shooting in this Country occur at aprox seven yards. The great majority of concealed carry holders are incapable of precise fire (unsighted) at that range and must rely upon either sights or an aiming device to execute a precise defensive shot at that range? Thus the need in fact for either sighted fire or a red dot.

Fighting an uphill battle convincing some folks of the benefits of using an optic. Quantifiable results speak louder than decades of experience.

I used to bash them a little until I started running drills with a timer and moving and shooting.

About the reliability of them. I have one on a rifle and took it off to clean it up. Put it back on and went to the range. First round it came off and bounced off a couple rocks next to a creek. Threw it back on and tightened it up this time and shot the rest of the day with no issue. And that was a cheap Vortex. I’d love to have Eotech money but right now that’s not happening.

 

[diymirage]

I’d love to have Eotech money but right now that’s not happening.

When I heard you guys raving about them I looked em up (because I didn't know em)
Yeah, rule of thumb, I'm not putting an optics on a gun that costs more then the gun itself

 

[doogievlg]

When I heard you guys raving about them I looked em up (because I didn't know em)
Yeah, rule of thumb, I'm not putting an optics on a gun that costs more then the gun itself

It’s arguably the highest quality red dot on the market. Not for everyone (not me at the moment) but it’s one of those tools that is worth it.

 

[1973Barracuda]

I do not remember anyone ever saying their eotech failed. Ever. And they got beat. In any theater. Someone mentioned super fine sand. Kuwait. Finest **** I ever saw. When you walked, the air from your feet would push the sand out before your foot touched the ground. Gets in every crevice.

 

[memike]

Heads up any of y’all in the South or Midwest, the largest gun show in the world (literally) is next month in Tulsa Ok. They hold it twice a year. Over six miles of tables under 11 acres roofed, heated, and cooled at the expo center in Tulsa. It is April 1/2 this year for Spring show. If you have never been it is an amazing show. We use radios to communicate as it is that kind of crazy. We all pool our grocery lists each guy gets a copy then we split up to search and destroy. It just a total hoot. There is just no way to see the whole show. They try and group like items in like areas, but not so much. You see something on the list you ping the boys with location and move on. It is the kind of show where you can start the morning with a Ruger 22 revolver and trade up all day and walk out with a model 29!

My wife's uncle's sell there, did for awhile, they have retired and one passed away, seems like I seen a video shot by a drone on utube in 2020, unbelievable how huge it is, you going ?

 

[Sublime one]

My wife's uncle's sell there, did for awhile, they have retired and one passed away, seems like I seen a video shot by a drone on utube in 2020, unbelievable how huge it is, you going ?

Not sure yet. We are flat broke trying to get house built. I fear I would die a horrible death if I go over there and buy something I desperately have to have that I don’t need!

 

[Sublime one]

So after our last Red Dot class where multiple students had issues with screws on adaptor plates and optics I put together a small triage kit for next class. I had two full master screw kits on hand and neither had the required screws. Turns out they are mostly for scopes and rings and such. Dated if you will. Here is modern optic kit I put together. This is Beta version, it will evolve in a class or two, I am not entirely happy with it but it works for now.

 

[MMissile]

When I heard you guys raving about them I looked em up (because I didn't know em)
Yeah, rule of thumb, I'm not putting an optics on a gun that costs more then the gun itself

My rule of thumb. The glass should be equal or more than the firearm. That's unless you're collecting crazy-rare stuff. I lean towards a lot of Steiner stuff. German[best glass on the planet] and parts, assembled here in the USA. Moderately priced. I'm also sold on the UK/Shield dots. Great stuff.

My old eyes also prefer green-dots. I've found that the higher-priced HOLOSUN stuff is pretty durable, with lots of great features. [I know, I hate buying chi-com]
I think the domestic companies have been lazy, and living off their name and old reputations. Good stuff, but no innovation... [EOTECH and TRIJICON are local]

 

[Sublime one]

My rule of thumb. The glass should be equal or more than the firearm. That's unless you're collecting crazy-rare stuff. I lean towards a lot of Steiner stuff. German[best glass on the planet] and parts, assembled here in the USA. Moderately priced. I'm also sold on the UK/Shield dots. Great stuff.

My old eyes also prefer green-dots. I've found that the higher-priced HOLOSUN stuff is pretty durable, with lots of great features. [I know, I hate buying chi-com]
I think the domestic companies have been lazy, and living off their name and old reputations. Good stuff, but no innovation... [EOTECH and TRIJICON are local]


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Very nice rig.