Hard cold start- lack of fuel- UPDATED

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yarcraft91

yarcraft91

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I'm trying to figure out a situation I've had for years with my '67 Barracuda 273 2bbl.

It has developed a hard starting problem if it sits overnight or longer. The apparent problem is lack of fuel in the carb. I pump the accelerator to set the choke and it will fire briefly, then die. Takes lots of cranking to get it to fire again, after which it runs normally. If I first pour some fuel into the carb, it starts right up, then dies, restarts with minimal cranking. If hot, it takes some cranking and starts with very slow idle,becoming normal after 10 seconds or so.

It used to start right up with only brief cranking, cold or hot. Has a Holley Economaster carb, installed 25-30 years ago, never rebuilt.

Electronic ignition (Mopar), new plugs (Champion RN14YC), new mechanical fuel pump, new fuel filter, new air filter, new fuel gauge sender, all-new rubber hose in the fuel lines, all made no difference in starting. Engine runs normal temps (new thermostat), fuel line and fuel filter stand off from engine and manifold. Battery cranks the car properly (fourth replacement battery for a JC Penny Lifetime Battery purchased 38 years ago!). :scratch:

Thoughts?
 
Sounds like the bowl is emptying into the engine after shutdown. Could be as simple as a check ball seat in that carb.
Run it , warm it up, shut it down. Remove the air cleaner and look for fuel flowing or vapor rising in the air horn.
 
I have a similar condition. My first thought is that the fuel is draining out of the carb overnight, forcing you to crank the engine to refill the float bowls before it will start. You say the carb has never been rebuilt... fuel could be leaking past old gaskets and slowly draining out either onto the manifold where it would evaporate or into the manifold where it would find its way into the cylinders and wash the oil off the cylinder walls if it doesn't evaporate first. My carb is a rebuilt Carter BBS 2 barrel so in my case I don't think its leaking past the gaskets... but I may pull the carb and re-tighten all the screws just to check. In my case, it takes several days of sitting before the car is hard to start.
 
You've stated what I also think is the cause of the symptoms- the carb bowl is draining. Now, if I can just figure out what's causing it to drain. I'll look down the carb throat after I run it- may help ID the problem. FWIW, I do not get a fuel smell from the oil on the dipstick prior to a cold start, which I would expect if the carb bowl was draining into the cylinders.

I hope/expect there are gasket kits to rebuild a Holley Economaster. Unless it's a lot more complicated than rebuilding a Carter BBD, that job shouldn't take long.
 
Today fuel evaporates causing the bowl to be empty the next day. They took something out of the fuel to prevent this because modern fuel injected cars don't need it. Yes your carb could be leaking but this will happen on a carb that does not leak. Fuel percolation is a common problem and has been discussed many times on this forum.
 
I "threw in the towel" on my 67. I brazed a 1/4" line into the face of the tank, after filling it with CO2 from my MIG bottle, installed an electric pump at the tank, and made a "vapor return" system using a Wix 33040 (5/16) or 33041 (3/eights) which has a built in 1/4" return port with an orifice inside.

You do not HAVE to remove the mechanical pump

Last winter we had many nice days with no rain and dry streets when I drove the car. I could get in there, turn on the key for 3-5 seconds to run the pump, hit the gas 3, 4 times (no choke!!!) and it's runnin'!!!! I'm talkin about 20*F days here!!! The car might have sat for two weeks or more. waiting for that one nice day.

I use an Edelbrock "red" pump, and made auxiliary grommets to quiet the thing down. If I was to replace it I'd try a Carter

http://www.jegs.com/i/Carter/180/P4070/10002/-1

180-P4070.jpg
 
Called the local Holley carb and parts supplier, asked for a carburetor rebuilding kit, read off the numbers printed on the original box the carb came in. Parts guy said "Huh?"

Unlike the old Carter carb, there is no metal tag on the Holley carb with a specific part number- never was, as I am the guy who installed it.

Probably worthwhile rebuilding a carb in service for 30 years, but it pains me to fiddle with a carb that works great with the possible exception of this problem.

67DART273- I've been thinking along the same lines- go electric.
 
Most Holleys have a LIST no. stamped right on the carb somewhere. Don't know where it would be, what model is yours?

Anybody who's sold parts for more than 6 months should know that.

On the other hand, some guy at NAPA the other day could not even find a couple of universal tailpipe hangers.
 
Well, the box has the number 2-256, under which is printed "(7890)". Parts guy didn't recognize either number.

The instruction sheet, which I found in a file later, says the carb is a model 2280, list # 7890. A Holley 2280 was the factory carb on the 318 in the '77 model year, so, at worst, I can get a '77 318 carb rebuild kit.
 
IIRC the economaster series first started with the 4bbl 450cfm spreadbore of which i saw a few back in the day. I believe when they expanded the line to fit other 1 and 2 bbl applications that they used a oem or oem copy for those carbs. I doubt kits will be readily available as so much time has passed. If you could post some pics of it and any numbers you find, including off the box, i'll help you search around and see what's available.


This was the 4bbl version...
 

Attachments

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For your entertainment...

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1-pks8FoC6w"]Holley 2280 Rebuild Mopar - YouTube[/ame]
 
yarcraft91 said:
Well, the box has the number 2-256, under which is printed "(7890)". Parts guy didn't recognize either number.

The instruction sheet, which I found in a file later, says the carb is a model 2280, list # 7890. A Holley 2280 was the factory carb on the 318 in the '77 model year, so, at worst, I can get a '77 318 carb rebuild kit.
Click to expand...

Looks like that's probably the deal. Kinda funny how Holley used these carbs for there econo program, you can't get that much leaner then the factory carb from those years. They probably didn't really do much to it except offer it for earlier, richer jetted applications....lol.
 
Same problem here. I think fuel evaporation is the cause. If I start mine daily no problem. The electric pump should fix the problem. I have run nothing but AFB's on my 273. AFB's don't have any way the fuel can leak out of the bowl unless it evaporates. (as far as I know) I have tried 2 different fuel pumps too. (they are supposed to have a check valve in them to prevent drainback) Nothing I have done has solved the problem. tmm
 
OK- so last week, I drove the car on several 90+ degree days and the next morning, it was always very hard to start. That list of new things I put on the car, some were an (unsuccessful) attempt to solve this problem.

I added a pint of Seafoam to the gas tank the last time I did a fill-up (Tuesday evening), then drove the car Wednesday and Thursday (both 90+ degree days). Thursday and Friday morning, the car started up immediately both times. Too soon to declare victory, but...

Seafoam is a gas additive I've used successfully for many years to correct running problems in small engines, such as lawn mowers and outboards. So, the outboard experience may have come in handy here!

Meantime, I'll buy a carb rebuilding kit, to have one on hand.
 
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