Head Gasket experts...check in....

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SCE Gaskets have an integral O Ring built into the head gasket.
Patented Integral Combustion Seals perform the function of O-ringed blocks and heads without the added machining costs. They also provide extra sealing in high combustion pressure environments where rules prohibit O-ringing. The ICS Titan features stainless steel O-ring wire inserted into the gasket body around the cylinder bore, with combustion pressure forcing the flanges against the head and block for a self-energized secondary seal. Coolant and oil seals also included.


Krooser said:
Has anyone here used 0-rings with a MLS gasket? How about the 1008 or even copper?

My 383 was originally built before all these fancy gaskets were around (1993) so I would imagine that's why it was o-ringed.I'm not pro or anti any gasket. I might just use copper with the o-rings or???

W-2 heads btw.

It will be some time before this thing gets screwed back together... $$$ is pretty much non existent right now.
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Interesting theory JBirch.... the only part I’m waiting for is “the rest of the story” on what correction you made and how it never happened again. I personally have a hard time finding the gasket totally at fault in this case, but maybe.... in this day and age and with aluminum heads I’d a had a MLS gasket on that from the get go.
 
A body said:
Interesting theory JBirch.... the only part I’m waiting for is “the rest of the story” on what correction you made and how it never happened again. I personally have a hard time finding the gasket totally at fault in this case, but maybe.... in this day and age and with aluminum heads I’d a had a MLS gasket on that from the get go.
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What I did was throw the home ported "J" heads away, they leaked like a sieve, they were junk. My fault, a lot too vigorous with the carbide and I bypassed pressure test, live and learn.
Next thing I did was buy a set of ported Eddy's.
Next, I set my intake up on a Bridgeport and took .075 off the bottom for clearance; no more problems
Using a Fel-Pro gasket, don't remember the number, didn't write it down, 11.3 to 1 comp

It's with a "U"
 
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70aarcuda said:
compression is 11.8 to 1....fuel is E85.....studs were torqued down to 105 with arp lube...

pistons...valves...all look good....
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I didn't read the other responses.. But I'd think it's a tuning issue. A magnifier and good light with the old plugs will tell you if there's any metal transfer from the pistons without getting too far into the lower end. I know you're good at tuning, but maybe something got in the way of enough fuel? Also IMO 105 is not enough with the ARP lube for those studs. Might be worth seeing what the gasket crushed to. Measure the fire ring opposite the bulge, and the bulge.
 
A body said:
I personally have a hard time finding the gasket totally at fault in this case, but maybe.... in this day and age and with aluminum heads I’d a had a MLS gasket on that from the get go.
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I agree it is not totally the gaskets fault. If, as Duane states that failure is due to failings of only 4 bolt clamp around cylinder, then, I beleave, you would see the gaskets bulged out all over the place, not just towards the valley. If anything, most of the upset would be seen between cylinders as there is the least amount of structural back-up for support. An MLS, being steel, is not going to get pushed around, and most likely will not experience a blow out, though I see it as a band aid; if it did blow out, then what would you blame it on?? Watch for a blow torch mark across the deck where the gaskets bulged.

And another thing, there are LOTS of engines out there that are only ten bolt heads, the first gen Hemi only had 10 bolts holding the head down and they held a load of nitro, most of the time, failures were tune-up errors.
 
JBurch said:
I agree it is not totally the gaskets fault. If, as Duane states that failure is due to failings of only 4 bolt clamp around cylinder, then, I beleave, you would see the gaskets bulged out all over the place, not just towards the valley. If anything, most of the upset would be seen between cylinders as there is the least amount of structural back-up for support. An MLS, being steel, is not going to get pushed around, and most likely will not experience a blow out, though I see it as a band aid; if it did blow out, then what would you blame it on?? Watch for a blow torch mark across the deck where the gaskets bulged.

And another thing, there are LOTS of engines out there that are only ten bolt heads, the first gen Hemi only had 10 bolts holding the head down and they held a load of nitro, most of the time, failures were tune-up errors.
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You are forgetting that 4 bolts per cylinder is entirely adequate
For a stock engine at what, 9.5:1 compression and a .450 lift cam
At maximum 5,000 rpm that ran 14 second quarter mile ets
10 seconds is entirely different
And how long do you think the life expectancy of a nitro Hemi is.
Stock hemis are very difficult to make high compression because of the chamber shape and would require a very heavy domed piston to do it.
The head gaskets may blow out on the intake side because that is the quench side of the chamber if I am not mistaken.
Almost all stock oem head gaskets are now Mls design for reliability reasons. Even the fel pro website will tell you to chose a style of head gasket based on intended usage. The excerpt that I posted earlier claims the sbm has head gasket trouble at 11:1
Tony is at 11.8:1.
 
Just makes me wonder.... in my street days (dark ages) I had a pump gas 340 that I was hitting with a 200 shot of nitrous. While we rolled rod bearings in it, we never had a head gasket let go (betting they were felpros.... late 80’s). Guess I just don’t hear of them failing that often, but that stands to reason why the W8/9 has 18 bolts.

I still say MLS it Tony! Copper coat and go!
 
Duane said:
You are forgetting that 4 bolts per cylinder is entirely adequate
For a stock engine at what, 9.5:1 compression and a .450 lift cam
At maximum 5,000 rpm that ran 14 second quarter mile ets
10 seconds is entirely different
And how long do you think the life expectancy of a nitro Hemi is.
Stock hemis are very difficult to make high compression because of the chamber shape and would require a very heavy domed piston to do it.
The head gaskets may blow out on the intake side because that is the quench side of the chamber if I am not mistaken.
Almost all stock oem head gaskets are now Mls design for reliability reasons. Even the fel pro website will tell you to chose a style of head gasket based on intended usage. The excerpt that I posted earlier claims the sbm has head gasket trouble at 11:1
Tony is at 11.8:1.
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Not forgetting; 421SD Pontiacs, 427 Thunder Bolts, seemed to get along
Early Top Fuel first gen Hemis didn't get pulled down after each round as do Fuel engines now, it was hoped that they, Early Hemis, would last the meet, Blowers make up for lack of compression building.

A thought just came to mind; what did the even bank look like??
 
JBurch said:
Not forgetting; 421SD Pontiacs, 427 Thunder Bolts, seemed to get along
Early Top Fuel first gen Hemis didn't get pulled down after each round as do Fuel engines now, it was hoped that they, Early Hemis, would last the meet, Blowers make up for lack of compression building.

A thought just came to mind; what did the even bank look like??
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This reply , same as your last one are apples to oranges.
As it says in the excerpt that I posted earlier, most other v8 small block engines use more than 4 bolts. The two engines you listed are big blocks are they not?
My point was that before the birth of the fel pro 1008 gasket,
High compression sbm engines use to have head gasket trouble all the time. It was very common. The Mls gaskets are not a bandaid. They are superior technology. Most stock engines
Including the sbm get along just fine with 4 bolts for what the engines designed use was.
They were not designed for 5-600 horsepower 10 second runs.
 
Big, small what difference does it make, engine doesn't know what name is on the valve cover, you are still trying to contain cylinder pressure with what is admittedly a marginal clamping system, just as a reminder, the small block chevy suffers from gasket trouble also, and it's got 5 bolts around.

My point is that pattern of failure the OP's gaskets tells me that the head got pulled. I am not denying that the OP is trying to contain alot of cylinder pressure with a less than ideal clamping system, good for him, I wish him luck.

Again, it is pattern of failure that has got me, apparently nothing is wrong with the even bank......why is that?? To your line of logic, cylinder pressure to generate 5-600 hp says that failure should be universal around all cylinders.......

I have nothing against MLS gaskets, have a set out in my garage waiting for the day...........I find it amusing though that Comitic suggests that they go in dry and people paint them up with all manor of stuff just the same; post 83; or they put 2 cans of Barr's leak in to stop up a coolant leak.

MLS gaskets do work great, just don't use them to potentially cover up some other underlying problem.
 
A random neuron just fired...........To the OP, what engine temp do you stage the car at??
 
JBurch said:
Big, small what difference does it make, engine doesn't know what name is on the valve cover, you are still trying to contain cylinder pressure with what is admittedly a marginal clamping system, just as a reminder, the small block chevy suffers from gasket trouble also, and it's got 5 bolts around.

My point is that pattern of failure the OP's gaskets tells me that the head got pulled. I am not denying that the OP is trying to contain alot of cylinder pressure with a less than ideal clamping system, good for him, I wish him luck.

Again, it is pattern of failure that has got me, apparently nothing is wrong with the even bank......why is that?? To your line of logic, cylinder pressure to generate 5-600 hp says that failure should be universal around all cylinders.......

I have nothing against MLS gaskets, have a set out in my garage waiting for the day...........I find it amusing though that Comitic suggests that they go in dry and people paint them up with all manor of stuff just the same; post 83; or they put 2 cans of Barr's leak in to stop up a coolant leak.

MLS gaskets do work great, just don't use them to potentially cover up some other underlying problem.
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You have some good points there.
I was wondering if possibly the quench side would get pressurized or hit harder by the pressure because of chamber shape that may cause the gasket to fail on the intake side.
JBurch said:
Big, small what difference does it make, engine doesn't know what name is on the valve cover, you are still trying to contain cylinder pressure with what is admittedly a marginal clamping system, just as a reminder, the small block chevy suffers from gasket trouble also, and it's got 5 bolts around.

My point is that pattern of failure the OP's gaskets tells me that the head got pulled. I am not denying that the OP is trying to contain alot of cylinder pressure with a less than ideal clamping system, good for him, I wish him luck.

Again, it is pattern of failure that has got me, apparently nothing is wrong with the even bank......why is that?? To your line of logic, cylinder pressure to generate 5-600 hp says that failure should be universal around all cylinders.......

I have nothing against MLS gaskets, have a set out in my garage waiting for the day...........I find it amusing though that Comitic suggests that they go in dry and people paint them up with all manor of stuff just the same; post 83; or they put 2 cans of Barr's leak in to stop up a coolant leak.

MLS gaskets do work great, just don't use them to potentially cover up some other underlying problem.
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70aarcuda said:
160 degrees.
.that engine runs cool
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Be scared, more random neuron firing possibilities..............I thought of the possibility of thermal discrepancies between iron block, aluminum head....I know aluminum heads, iron blocks have been around for ever, however....... the thought was your staging temperature is too low......thermal expansion of the head during the course of the run could be the up set, but I'm also willing to kick this idea to the curb as it is too localized. Thermal expansion of the head issues would be universal to both banks.

Another thought that came to mind, another thermal issue is that of evaporative cooling of the intake. You stated you run E85, the evaporation of the ethanol could/would chill the intake, the head is 160 degrees F at the start, it's hotter at the end of the run. The intake stayed cold. You could test this with an IR scan of intake and head right at the end of the run, do it as fast as you can before heat soak sets in
 
Ok...thanks everyone for their comments and suggestions....here is an update ....

went I started this post I already had cleaned and installed the Felpro 1008 on the head....so after reading the suggestions...I agree the fel pro gaskets are not going to survive.
since the head was on...I intalled the rockers and did an compression check to see what i would get and compare it to the passenger side head as it also had the fel pro gasket....figuring if this one is bad the other side is going to take a crap too...

driver side with new gasket ...i get 210 psi cranking....passenger side with old fel pro is only 170 ish....so I could see the hand writing on the wall....both need to be replaced....So the cometics are on their way....

will give update once everything is back together...probably in a week or so....changing out rear ends in 71 Duster....
 
The only thing I’ll add is......

I put together a SB stroker for a FAST competitor....... which is pretty high compression, and has a short duration cam, and runs ex manifolds(keeps the heat in).

This is a combination that would absolutely fail with a 1008 gasket.

It’s been together for about 5 years now....... no head gasket issues yet.

It’s got Cometics on it.
 
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Krooser said:
??????
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Some people are against O Rings. I run a copper head gasket with O Rings in the block and receiver grooves in the head on my 360 based 387ci stroked, 871 blown SB with upto a 200 shot of nitrous. There’s many gaskets for many applications.
O Ringing with receiver grooves will never fail.
 
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