Help identify please: power or manual gearbox?

[JoesEdge]

I just purchased a '74 Duster and I'm new to MOPAR vehicles. The car isn't too far from being road worthy, but I need to address a few things such first as steering (next will be brakes, clutch, seats, electrical).

Anyway, I can barely move the wheels at a dead stop so I needed to figure out what I had as far as steering is concerned. Can someone help me identify the steering gearbox in the attached photo?

If it's manual, then maybe I need to get me an original steering wheel for the one I have is too small of a diameter to put any leverage.

If it IS a power steering gearbox, then I guess I'll be needing a power steering pump. Can you guys point me out to what I need to get this thing working again? When I bought the car, I was told the car no longer as a 318 and it's now a 360.

Thanks!

 

[JoesEdge]

Attached is a pic of the steering wheel just for reference.

 

[VDART]

that is a jacked up p/s box-- jacked up because it is open to the elements & probably has issues inside the box. post up a want ad-- lots of people discarding those for manual steering.

1 thing to watch for 73 & later -- I think uses a larger spline count that the 72 & older versions-- not 100%-- but just be aware of a spline change ,Lawrence

 

[wireweld]

That is a ps box, you need a pump and brackets.

 

[n00blike]

Congrats on the new car!

I got a 74 duster too and that is a power steering gearbox. My duster has a saginaw pump. Im not sure on the pros and cons of other pumps.

the saginaw pump looks like this. Note that you may need all the brackets and bolts.

You can call these guys up. They have helped me out with my suspension over the years.

http://www.firmfeel.com/psp_a.html


(woow you guys are quick!)

 

[2 Darts]

Yep, that's a PS box. IMHO, it would not be wise to hook up a pump until the box has been cleaned out internally. Hydraulic pumps do not take kindly to debris going through them. If the interior of the pump is scored, like an AT it will growl or whine.

The PS boxes are lots faster going 3½ turns lock-to-lock where the manual boxes are 5 turns.

The Saginaw pump is a bit thinner than the Federal Mogul and will move a bit more fluid. The thinner size makes for a little more flexibility in terms of where it can be mounted.

The 73 and later uses the same Pittman arm as the F/M/J bodies. I've got a cop car box on a 75 k-frame in the Demon. I'd recommend the cop car box to anyone who wants or needs power steering.

 

[rbdart]

Yes it's a PS box you have...and the engine pictured is not a 360 by the balancer,possibly a 273/318/340...most likely a 318...you will need to find a pump and brackets and hoses for the PS to work and agree that you need to either replace the PS gear box or flush the one out you have which most likely had an issue...shouldnt be hard to find here on this site....

 

[Locomotion]

Yes it's a PS box you have...and the engine pictured is not a 360 by the balancer,possibly a 273/318/340...most likely a 318...

The OP will need to take a closer look. Later LA 360's had a recess in the balancer/damper ring as opposed to the cast-in counterweight that stuck out. That one may have a recess. (Enlarge the pic for a better look.) Checking the casting numbers on the side of the block is a sure-fire way to find the engine size.

 

[rbdart]

The OP will need to take a closer look. Later LA 360's had a recess in the balancer/damper ring as opposed to the cast-in counterweight that stuck out. That one may have a recess. (Enlarge the pic for a better look.) Checking the casting numbers on the side of the block is a sure-fire way to find the engine size.

Could be possible but my money is on the not being a 360 for several reasons but I agree the best way to determine is look at the drivers side of block

 

[toolmanmike]

That power steering gear looks as if it was sand blasted. If so it might not be any good.

 

[JoesEdge]

that is a jacked up p/s box-- jacked up because it is open to the elements & probably has issues inside the box. post up a want ad-- lots of people discarding those for manual steering.

1 thing to watch for 73 & later -- I think uses a larger spline count that the 72 & older versions-- not 100%-- but just be aware of a spline change ,Lawrence

Lawrence, thanks for tip regarding the P/S box. Sounds like it could use a cleaning then. But, why are people replacing the power steering gearboxes for manual gearboxes? Could you explain?

Congrats on the new car!

I got a 74 duster too and that is a power steering gearbox. My duster has a saginaw pump. Im not sure on the pros and cons of other pumps.

the saginaw pump looks like this. Note that you may need all the brackets and bolts.

You can call these guys up. They have helped me out with my suspension over the years.

http://www.firmfeel.com/psp_a.html


(woow you guys are quick!)

Thanks for the pic of the P/S pump. From the others that chimed in, that seems to be a good pump to go with since it moves more fluid. I have Firm Feel book marked. I noticed that they have different stages to their P/S gearboxes./COLOR]

Yep, that's a PS box. IMHO, it would not be wise to hook up a pump until the box has been cleaned out internally. Hydraulic pumps do not take kindly to debris going through them. If the interior of the pump is scored, like an AT it will growl or whine.

The PS boxes are lots faster going 3½ turns lock-to-lock where the manual boxes are 5 turns.

The Saginaw pump is a bit thinner than the Federal Mogul and will move a bit more fluid. The thinner size makes for a little more flexibility in terms of where it can be mounted.

The 73 and later uses the same Pittman arm as the F/M/J bodies. I've got a cop car box on a 75 k-frame in the Demon. I'd recommend the cop car box to anyone who wants or needs power steering.

3 1/2 turns lock to lock sounds like a good thing to me. Still unsure why someone would want to go with a manual gearbox if they already have a P/S gearbox. What's the difference between a standard P/S gearbox and a cop car gearbox? Thanks!

Could be possible but my money is on the not being a 360 for several reasons but I agree the best way to determine is look at the drivers side of block

So this engine might be a 318? That's ok with me because I don't mind keeping the drive train close to original. So where exactly on the box is the engine size stamped? Would it be easy to see?

I'd like to thank you all for a quick response. I spent some time cleaning the Duster. I'm actually going to post more pictures in the appropriate forum. I'm actually anxious to get her on the road, but I just want to make sure she's safe before I get to that point.

 

[3406pk]

People replace power steering boxes for manual for several reasons. I replaced one on my duster to make more room for TTI headers. Also there is the weight savings if you drag race. Manual box is aluminum and much lighter plus no pump.
If the car is not a daily driver, you can get by with more steering effort.

 

[Locomotion]

So this engine might be a 318? That's ok with me because I don't mind keeping the drive train close to original. So where exactly on the box is the engine size stamped? Would it be easy to see?

Engine size, casting date and casting number are on the sides of the engine block. I forgot what side has what on it. Might need to crawl underneath with a flashlight.

If it is a 318, a single plane isn't a good choice, particularly on the street, or even if it is a 360. 360 heads could also reduce 318 compression because 360 combustion chambers are bigger than in a 318 head. But we don't know what all has actually been done to it.

 

[JoesEdge]

People replace power steering boxes for manual for several reasons. I replaced one on my duster to make more room for TTI headers. Also there is the weight savings if you drag race. Manual box is aluminum and much lighter plus no pump.
If the car is not a daily driver, you can get by with more steering effort.

Ah, I see. That makes sense. I used to have a '65 Mustang with manual steering and I had no issues at all with steering, so I'm a believer when you say I can live with manual. Although, since it's already power I might as well keep it that way. Thanks for the explanation!

Engine size, casting date and casting number are on the sides of the engine block. I forgot what side has what on it. Might need to crawl underneath with a flashlight.

If it is a 318, a single plane isn't a good choice, particularly on the street, or even if it is a 360. 360 heads could also reduce 318 compression because 360 combustion chambers are bigger than in a 318 head. But we don't know what all has actually been done to it.

Okay, I'll take a look over the weekend. I wish I could work on it more tomorrow, but I have to go back to work. Boooo! Well, I have to fund this adventure somehow I guess.

Yeah, the single plane manifold was a concern of mine, and I wondered if it's the reason why the brakes are so mushy and pretty much almost non-working. I wondered if it was due to not enough vacuum because of the manifold.

 

[n00blike]

I have Firm Feel book marked. I noticed that they have different stages to their P/S gearboxes.

I'm a Firm Feel fan, mainly because they had good products before mopar became popular with the big aftermarket names and I had a good chat with them.

I would recommend their suspension stuff. I have heard a lot of good things about them on this site. Once I get my car up and running I can give you a better review on some of their parts.

 

[Locomotion]

Yes, a single plane is not the best choice for a streetable combo. A dual plane will make the car more responsive and "drivable". No telling what the cam is. But you may wish to somehow check the P/S unit to make sure it is usable, especially after being "open" like that. It may be less hassle to swap in a manual box rather than get the pump, brackets, pulleys, etc.

 

[RustyRatRod]

Man, put a pump on it and try it. I've pulled half buried P/S boxes outta the dirt in the junk yard, put them on and they worked fine as frog hair. It takes a lot to kill one.

 

[sireland67]

The engine size will be right above the starter, the year will be on the passenger side towards the motor mount.

 

[2 Darts]

The cop car steering box, IIRC, is a Firm Feel box. The normal power steering boxes come off as "over-assisted" IMO. You can drive them with one finger. The cop car box gives me a better idea of what's going on with front wheel grip.

The cop car box also requires a little more effort, but is still easier work than unassisted steering. I've been shuffling around steering wheels and diameters which also changes steering effort. Smaller steering wheel requires more effort.

 

[e50095]

Joey, I didn't think anyone mentioned it, but the steering columns are not the same length for power and manual steering. You can use an adapter that I think is a little pricey, or find a manual column if you choose to go that way. The power vs manual is a personal preference thing.

 

[ocdart]

But, why are people replacing the power steering gearboxes for manual gearboxes? Could you explain?

Joe, a lot of A-body owners replace their power steering gearboxes with manual gearboxes because they don't like the "over-boosted" feeling of the stock Mopar power steering box.
Yes, FirmFeel makes a great replacement product but you can modify a stock Saginaw PS pump to reduce the "over-boost" and give you the firmer feel. Check out this article from Mopar Action magazine for the "how to":
[ame]http://www.moparaction.com/Tech/beep/PUMP_IT_DOWN-re-v1.4.pdf[/ame]

 

[n00blike]

Joey, I didn't think anyone mentioned it, but the steering columns are not the same length for power and manual steering. You can use an adapter that I think is a little pricey, or find a manual column if you choose to go that way. The power vs manual is a personal preference thing.

Good catch!

Firm feel has them for $125, not bad compared to a new column.
http://www.firmfeel.com/column_adapt_a.html

Also you will need a pulley for the pump! Most pumps don't come with pulleys.

 

[abodyjoe]

iF you are spending the time and money on another box then capp pete at http://bergman-auto-craft.myshopify.com/ and buy one of his new boxes. it cost a little more then a firm feel but its not a 40 year old rebuilt unit, its all new and its also smaller and lighter. they say it has an awesome feel to it too. better then a firm feel they say..


as far as the pump goes you are better off with a saginaw pump. here are the brackets to mount it.. http://www.bouchillonperformance.com/inc/sdetail/984/1007

here is what it should look like all mounted..

 

[JoesEdge]

Wow so many replies with awesome info! Thanks! The links and pictures are of great value. My son is right now with my dad at the local junkyard and he found a Polara (I think) with a pump and brackets. I'm sending him all this info so he can try to identify it and make sure it will work. At the very least, it can be used as a core and the brackets will be handy too.

 

[JoesEdge]

I have been really slow updating this thread. I actually got this installed weeks ago.

I found a pump out of another Mopar (not sure what it was) at the Ecology Auto Wrecking in Wilmington, CA. I paid about 43 bucks for the pump and host. I went the Pick-Your-Part just down the street and found the brackets of a Polara for 10 bucks.

Here's some pictures of them dressed up. I need to get better shots of the pump in the car. I also bought new alternator belt and power steering belt.

I did flush out the power steering box. I rand through a few quarts of fluid which I dumped into a clean milk jug. The fluid came out relatively clean. I had my son move the steering wheel back and forth slowly to loosen any debris. I just had to make sure I kept filling the reservoir quick because it would empty FAST!

I used ATF fluid, but now I'm reading that I shouldn't. When I have a chance, I'm going to replace it with Power Steering Fluid. So far, no leaks or anything. Works great!

Now turning the wheel can be done with 2 fingers, but also I do have skinnies up front (for now) which makes things easier I suppose.