Help Me Cool Down

[yellow rose]

Moroso Water Outlet Restrictor Kits 63440

My motor has no bypass. The coolant system was designed at a NASCAR shop. I do not need a stat that can fail or the washers.

Due the water leaving my block is restricted with a one inch hose. This prevents cavatating which causes steam pockets. I am using a one inch upper hose. No stat can create cavatating. you must restrict the flow if your radiator is to large or with a high flow pump.

But like always you seem to know everything. I would rather believe the experts then your misguided advice as always. Sometimes I think you just make up stories to cause conflict. There are time you are correct but not often

Like I said I went to a 5/8 washer to see if I can drop the cavitating more . I was alright with the one inch hose as recommended by a friend Modify Nascar shop foreman Tony Hirshcman. Spotter for Kyle bush. #18 who designed my cooling system for street and track racing.

I did not decide this application or make up a story as you. The experts did. Something you and I are not. But I am learning late in life. Something I can admit.

YOU MUST RESTRICT FLOW LEAVING THE MOTOR AND TRAVELING THROUGH THE RADIATOR IF YOUR RADIATOR CANNOT DO IT. Steam pockets can be caused at idle with a high flow electric pump.

Seams like they all agree with the old Mopar manuals. I believe the later manuals they assumed it should be known. from knowledge learned in the 70's. Almost 50 years ago.

View attachment 1715391667

I don't make anything up. Before I built my cooling system, I didn't deal with Moroso or anyone who is essentially just a parts seller.

I called Stewart Components, Evans Coolant and Griffin radiators. All said the same thing. Which I already knew.

I called the experts. That's why on a hundred degree day, I have to have a thermostat. Otherwise, running down the road the coolant temp drops to about 140. How can that be? It's unrestricted so it should overheat? But it's the opposite. I'd rather not have the restriction of the thermostat. But I have to get some temp in it. I might not get 120 degrees of temp in it if I drove it when the temp is 20 degrees. Which I do drive it in that weather.

Again, you can go all over the web and find the answer you want. It's still wrong. It always was wrong. I can point out 20 different "experts" who will tell you that you set power valve opening at idle. It's still wrong. And it always was wrong. I keep pointing to this as an example because several members here actually went out and TESTED the FACT I posted (and many others have too...I don't want to forget Mattax and several others who say it every time they see it wrong) and learned the truth. That that old wives tale is wrong. No matter who says it and what book it's in.

In my world, I don't care who you are, what you do, or who you threaten. You are wrong on this. It's a public forum. If you don't like being called out, don't post things that are wrong.

I apologize in advance because this dude will argue with a stop sign. The fact is, you can't get enough flow. Slowing down the coolant is a required evil sometimes. It's never good. To say an engine overheats because the coolant doesn't stay in the radiator is wrong. It's always wrong. It's actually in the thermodynics books. Get as much air flow and coolant flow as you can, and use your thermostat to set the minimum coolant temp you need.

It's that simple.

 

[Oldmanmopar]

I called the experts. That's why on a hundred degree day, I have to have a thermostat. Otherwise, running down the road the coolant temp drops to about 140. How can that be? It's unrestricted so it should overheat? But it's the opposite. I'd rather not have the restriction of the thermostat. But I have to get some temp in it. I might not get 120 degrees of temp in it if I drove it when the temp is 20 degrees. Which I do drive it in that weather.

The restriction is to build coolant pressure in the block which prevents the coolant to bubble and cavitation around the top of the cylinders and heads. This is a well known fact that you need pressure in the block to prevent this. A thermostat can fail which is why many eliminate them and stats are not used in a 500 mile race car or any race motor for that fact.

But you need to restrict the flow so the motor does not cavatate. I don't care what your temp gauge reads If the coolant is not around the sensor it will read a lower temperature. Run a motor without coolant the temp guage will not read hot air. Use a infared thermometer and you will see it is hot at the top of the block but the gauge reads colder. Idling with out a re-stricter and no stat causes cavatation which causes in correct readings. The motor must have a stat or a re-stricter to keep the block pressure up.

I better tell the NASCAR guys that I know your logic and most all racers . They seam to be doing it all wrong. Cavitation is caused more at idle from sonic waves from the block. Before the braided hoses were used they all ran was a 1 inch re-stricter. Now they all have a 1 inch inside hose and fittings. Again restricting the flow keeps the block coolant under pressure. and cools the block and heads evenly with no cavitation. When the top of the block around the cylinders don't have water. you will distort the cylinders. and over heat the heads.

Read up on how to prevent cavitation at idle. Ah but any info but yours is false. Because you know. I didn't come up with this as you did. I just followed the expert advice from many I trust that use this info.

Some info I pulled. There is more out there But it would just be a waist of time as always with you. running hot at idle is caused by to great of flow. No coolant pressure in the block

Engine blocks machined with limited or no cooling jacket can result in steam pockets and hot spots. Boring is great for getting more power out of your engine but notorious for contributing to overheating. At idle the creation of a hot spot at the top of the cylinder is greater and may be enough to cause pre-ignition. Steam pockets can lead to detonation (hot spots in the cylinder wall) and detonation leads to broken parts. At high rpm the coolant moves through the block fast enough to prevent any steam pockets from forming. At idle if it does not raise engine block pressure 22%. Which this helps prevent their formation of a steam pockets and suppress es engine hot spots caused by them.

Overheating at idle can be caused by to great of flow by no restriction at all. This is just something the PO can look into . I am not saying this is his problem . But I always used this method. I have tried down to 5/8" and the best was 1" as suggested by the NASCAR shop for my motor.

I ran pump gas in my motor with 12.5 pistons on the street and never had detonation. At the track when hooked up with slicks I did run 114. I have taken my motor way past 8000 on the street for about 8 year s. NASCAR is using this same method and see 9000 rpm's consistently for 500 miles as stated. I would take their advice to the bank over an assumption from some that have only their experience.

Cavitation can be the OP's problem, Just a suggestion. Steve

 

[mopowers]

The restriction is to build coolant pressure in the block which prevents the coolant to bubble and cavitation around the top of the cylinders and heads. This is a well known fact that you need pressure in the block to prevent this. A thermostat can fail which is why many eliminate them and stats are not used in a 500 mile race car or any race motor for that fact.

But you need to restrict the flow so the motor does not cavatate. I don't care what your temp gauge reads If the coolant is not around the sensor it will read a lower temperature. Run a motor without coolant the temp guage will not read hot air. Use a infared thermometer and you will see it is hot at the top of the block but the gauge reads colder. Idling with out a re-stricter and no stat causes cavatation which causes in correct readings. The motor must have a stat or a re-stricter to keep the block pressure up.

I better tell the NASCAR guys that I know your logic and most all racers . They seam to be doing it all wrong. Cavitation is caused more at idle from sonic waves from the block. Before the braided hoses were used they all ran was a 1 inch re-stricter. Now they all have a 1 inch inside hose and fittings. Again restricting the flow keeps the block coolant under pressure. and cools the block and heads evenly with no cavitation. When the top of the block around the cylinders don't have water. you will distort the cylinders. and over heat the heads.

Read up on how to prevent cavitation at idle. Ah but any info but yours is false. Because you know. I didn't come up with this as you did. I just followed the expert advice from many I trust that use this info.

Some info I pulled. There is more out there But it would just be a waist of time as always with you. running hot at idle is caused by to great of flow. No coolant pressure in the block

Engine blocks machined with limited or no cooling jacket can result in steam pockets and hot spots. Boring is great for getting more power out of your engine but notorious for contributing to overheating. At idle the creation of a hot spot at the top of the cylinder is greater and may be enough to cause pre-ignition. Steam pockets can lead to detonation (hot spots in the cylinder wall) and detonation leads to broken parts. At high rpm the coolant moves through the block fast enough to prevent any steam pockets from forming. At idle if it does not raise engine block pressure 22%. Which this helps prevent their formation of a steam pockets and suppress es engine hot spots caused by them.

Overheating at idle can be caused by to great of flow by no restriction at all. This is just something the PO can look into . I am not saying this is his problem . But I always used this method. I have tried down to 5/8" and the best was 1" as suggested by the NASCAR shop for my motor.

I ran pump gas in my motor with 12.5 pistons on the street and never had detonation. At the track when hooked up with slicks I did run 114. I have taken my motor way past 8000 on the street for about 8 year s. NASCAR is using this same method and see 9000 rpm's consistently for 500 miles as stated. I would take their advice to the bank over an assumption from some that have only their experience.

Cavitation can be the OP's problem, Just a suggestion. Steve

Earlier, you said coolant flowing too quickly through the radiator can cause overheating. Now you're saying it's the cavitation from the pump moving the coolant too quickly that causes the overheating. Which one is it? Both?

 

[yellow rose]

Earlier, you said coolant flowing too quickly through the radiator can cause overheating. Now you're saying it's the cavitation from the pump moving the coolant too quickly that causes the overheating. Which one is it? Both?

He doesn't KNOW. He just repeats what he finds that matches his thinking.


I've made it clear. You need flow. Air flow. Coolant flow. I MUST run a thermostat or I couldn't get coolant temp up. I can run, WITHOUT a fan and no thermostat, but I'd be lucky to get 150 degrees on a hundred degree day.

I did the research in 1984 fighting cooling issues. The **** being said in this thread was wrong back then. A big, two core radiator, a good quality, high flow pump, and overdrive the water pump (just like the factory did) and you can cool anything.


BTW, one of the reasons (there are many) I switched to Evans coolant is it requires no pressure to cool. I run a 2 pound cap. It's easier on everything. They also have the BEST technical help on the phone you can get. And Stewart Components. You call them, and they will tell you the truth. They also have the best thermostats out there.

 

[yellow rose]

The restriction is to build coolant pressure in the block which prevents the coolant to bubble and cavitation around the top of the cylinders and heads. This is a well known fact that you need pressure in the block to prevent this. A thermostat can fail which is why many eliminate them and stats are not used in a 500 mile race car or any race motor for that fact.

But you need to restrict the flow so the motor does not cavatate. I don't care what your temp gauge reads If the coolant is not around the sensor it will read a lower temperature. Run a motor without coolant the temp guage will not read hot air. Use a infared thermometer and you will see it is hot at the top of the block but the gauge reads colder. Idling with out a re-stricter and no stat causes cavatation which causes in correct readings. The motor must have a stat or a re-stricter to keep the block pressure up.

I better tell the NASCAR guys that I know your logic and most all racers . They seam to be doing it all wrong. Cavitation is caused more at idle from sonic waves from the block. Before the braided hoses were used they all ran was a 1 inch re-stricter. Now they all have a 1 inch inside hose and fittings. Again restricting the flow keeps the block coolant under pressure. and cools the block and heads evenly with no cavitation. When the top of the block around the cylinders don't have water. you will distort the cylinders. and over heat the heads.

Read up on how to prevent cavitation at idle. Ah but any info but yours is false. Because you know. I didn't come up with this as you did. I just followed the expert advice from many I trust that use this info.

Some info I pulled. There is more out there But it would just be a waist of time as always with you. running hot at idle is caused by to great of flow. No coolant pressure in the block

Engine blocks machined with limited or no cooling jacket can result in steam pockets and hot spots. Boring is great for getting more power out of your engine but notorious for contributing to overheating. At idle the creation of a hot spot at the top of the cylinder is greater and may be enough to cause pre-ignition. Steam pockets can lead to detonation (hot spots in the cylinder wall) and detonation leads to broken parts. At high rpm the coolant moves through the block fast enough to prevent any steam pockets from forming. At idle if it does not raise engine block pressure 22%. Which this helps prevent their formation of a steam pockets and suppress es engine hot spots caused by them.

Overheating at idle can be caused by to great of flow by no restriction at all. This is just something the PO can look into . I am not saying this is his problem . But I always used this method. I have tried down to 5/8" and the best was 1" as suggested by the NASCAR shop for my motor.

I ran pump gas in my motor with 12.5 pistons on the street and never had detonation. At the track when hooked up with slicks I did run 114. I have taken my motor way past 8000 on the street for about 8 year s. NASCAR is using this same method and see 9000 rpm's consistently for 500 miles as stated. I would take their advice to the bank over an assumption from some that have only their experience.

Cavitation can be the OP's problem, Just a suggestion. Steve

WTF are you talking about??? How in the HELL does an engine overheat at idle from too much coolant flow? That's just plain idiotic. As I said earlier, you ain't making 700 HP at idle. Or at cruise. So that is just ridiculous.

Step into the 1990's. Damn.

 

[T56MaxTorq]

OK to summarize;
You need a waterpump with an anti-cavitation plate, a hi-flo stat, a 7 blade all-steel , hi-attack angle fan like the one shown below, with a thermostatic clutch, and a lower hose that is guaranteed not to get sucked flat, adequate exhaust flow and fresh cold air into the carb.
(EDIT; I also severely restricted my bypass hose., but still run a heatercore.)
Now when properly installed, the pump can be underdriven a lil, and the engine idled down to 650.
Proper installation means the fan cannot pull air from the engine side of the rad, and the rad is sealed to the incoming air stream. No worries, the 7 blader, when the clutch kicks in, will push all the hot air out, no hood venting required. Well with a turbo, maybe not all the hot-air will leave,lol.
After you get this set-up, the temperature differential between the top of the rad and the bottom should be a minimum of 30*F, with the hood closed, and idling at a stop. If it isn't, then install a shroud.
This system has more than adequately cooled my aluminum headed NA 367 in every iteration it has seen, with cylinder pressure above 177psi in every case, and including the mighty 292/292/108 cam.... but see, I have TTI headers and full length dual 3"pipes, and a big ol' hole in my hood sealed to the carb, directing fresh cold air into her. This system works so good, I run a minimum coolant temp of 207*F and a 7psi cap.
I and others are telling you what works.
But if you are building boost at idle, all bets are off.
You are free to spend your money any way you want to.

Oh, BTW, My rad is an ancient model, I plucked from a 1973Dart with A/C. After I proved the system worked with 100% water, I eventually swapped to 50/50 ant-freeze; so I wouldn't have to drain the water every fall, cuz; you know, I was getting older, and finding those petcocks on a lowered car was getting to be a PITA. The system continued to function as it did with pure water.
Because that 7-blader/with thermostatic clutch, is freakishly heavy, I went with a HD 8-vane pump with its larger impeller shaft, and assumed to be, heavier-duty bearings. That was 2001, and it's still on that engine; from a time standpoint that pump is the cheapest pump I ever bought..
If you are hesitant to install a real fan,on account of some stoopid video you saw that said your fan will suck 35 horsepower at 7000 rpm, then give your head a shake. Firstly your T-clutch will not be powered up at 7000, and Secondly; even if it was, you got a turbo, and Thirdly; if you can spin the tires to 60 mph what the heck does it even matter?
Thanks to Oldmanmopar for this pic
View attachment 1715391334

Thank you - I’m off to a good start since I have most of the items on list. I need the big fan with clutch. I don’t care how much power I lose I need to spend that HP on airflow. The exhaust is restricted by the turbo but after that it’s a 3” pipe to a muffler and exits in front of rear tires. The turbo intake is forward of the radiator support, just to the side of the front turn signal - so I don’t suck underhood heat in. T-stat is a normal one. My lower hose has a big spring in it to prevent it from collapsing and the water pump is a hi-flow style.

 

[BigBlockMopar]

Also, put some more timing in the engine at idle.
15° advance on a performance engine is not enough. You'll need at least something around 24° imo.

Pressure in the cooling system is caused by the coolant and the present air expanding due to heat, not by the waterpump 'creating' pressure because of some restriction in the thermostat.
The pump is not a positive displacement unit. It just flings water outwards and thereby sucks water in through it center.

Pumps can cavitate if they try to peddle the water faster than it wants to move.

I've tried a number of waterpumps on a car that wanted to overheat easily. Factory stockers, 440 pumps and a Mancini pump. The one that worked best was the factory stocker with the stamped steel impeller.

 

[T56MaxTorq]

Also, put some more timing in the engine at idle.
15° advance on a performance engine is not enough. You'll need at least something around 24° imo.

Pressure in the cooling system is caused by the coolant and the present air expanding due to heat, not by the waterpump 'creating' pressure because of some restriction in the thermostat.
The pump is not a positive displacement unit. It just flings water outwards and thereby sucks water in through it center.

Pumps can cavitate if they try to peddle the water faster than it wants to move.

I've tried a number of waterpumps on a car that wanted to overheat easily. Factory stockers, 440 pumps and a Mancini pump. The one that worked best was the factory stocker with the stamped steel impeller.

My engine is far from high performance lol. My static compression is less than 9:1 and I run E85. Maybe that’s why it likes the timing there. I don’t think I have a cavitation problem - my pump may be larger but it’s also underdriven and my lower hose isn’t sucking shut.

 

[T56MaxTorq]

I don’t think the water can flow so fast that it won’t cool off because the same would hold true to the engine - it wouldn’t heat the water because it’s flowing too fast.

Both the engine and radiator are submerged in water. It’s getting hot and cooling off no matter what. Unless there is another problem.

As far as cavitation goes, Not be mean but I’m not sure you know what cavitation is and how it happens. Only happens on the suction side of pumps/props. Can’t happen at the top of the bore. That’s just steam from being super-heated. Cavitation takes “pressure drop” to happen. Enough pressure drop to reduce the absolute pressure to near zero. Only the suction side of a pump is capable of doing that when it is restricted or trying to pull too much fluid weight across the suction line. Maybe the NASCAR stuff was a little lost in translation? It is a confusing topic for sure.

 

[kursplat]

Hayden 2947 fan clutch is very short

 

[Jimacuda]

Again, how much power do you make at idle? Or cruise? If you have heating issues in those conditions, it's not a shroud that will fix it. The shroud is used when the fan is too far from the radiator. That's all. It's not magic.

It also won't fix other issues like the water pump turning to slow.

Again, what? I made no mention of power... or magic for that matter...

Anyways...

I've had a shroud solve an over heat at idle issue.
The shroud did not cause any problems at highway speed, or well above.
Fan was placed/spaced properly in both instances. Same blade, different spacer.
Could a different pump or pulley have solved the problem as well? Maybe. A larger rad may have too.
Didnt have any of those at hand. Did have a shroud though. Didnt overheat at idle again.

Fan in shroud is more efficient at moving air. Creates a more uniform air flow.
Also it has the fan effectively drawing air thru the entire core...not just the much smaller swept area of the fan blades.

 

[AJ/FormS]

Thank you - I’m off to a good start since I have most of the items on list. I need the big fan with clutch. I don’t care how much power I lose I need to spend that HP on airflow. The exhaust is restricted by the turbo but after that it’s a 3” pipe to a muffler and exits in front of rear tires. The turbo intake is forward of the radiator support, just to the side of the front turn signal - so I don’t suck underhood heat in. T-stat is a normal one. My lower hose has a big spring in it to prevent it from collapsing and the water pump is a hi-flow style.

Ok; let's talk about how much power that Thermostatically controlled monster 7 blade fan actually costs you; not what the magazine says it could.
What I mean is; sure, a big direct-drive 7-blade, hi-attack angle, all steel fan will take some power to spin 6000,
but who in there right mind would run one like that?
Firstly, 30mph in first gear with 4.30s will be ~3900 at zero slip, perhaps as much as 4200 at WOT.So at this speed/rpm,with ram-air coming on line, the fan can be decoupled.
Second;from here on ram-air is gonna do the job.
So if you have a turbo'd engine, which is gonna be smoking the tires still at 30 mph, you already have a preponderance of power so even if that fan sucked 100 hp at 30 mph, nobody would care. Now, if you has a slanty, well yeah that would hurt,lol.
So how much power will that big fan really cost you?
Well,on my rig;IDK and I don't care. It is far more important to me that the stat is open when the rpm hits. So I run a high-flow stat branded 195*, that keeps my coolant at 205*F, to keep my aluminum heads warm.That's my minimum coolant temp. And that big fan keeps the maximum just a couple of degrees hotter, cycling in and out playing tag with the stat. It's all automatic, and 100% reliable.
I have 3.55s and a manual trans, with a 3.09 low in it; so 30mph is ~4100rpm, or would be if I wasn't standing on the skinny pedal.Incoming ram-air decouples my fan, and keeps it off until I slow down. The stat closes up to keep the engine at my chosen minimum, the heads stay warm, and we are cooking!
At idle, I never feel that fan cutting in/out; I suppose it's on full-time as it should be, as the stat is targeting 205*F. The 367 can't feel it, even as I retard the timing to reduce the strength of the power pulses, to idle around the parking lot at 4mph, which being 550 rpm. I do that with a dash-mounted, dial-back, timing box; everybody should have one. But 550 is the minimum the engine has enough power to to this at. I guess if the fan really sucked 30hp or whatever HR said, this would be impossible.
In any case, after about 30 mph my monster-fan, that everybody tells me to get rid of, cuz my car would so much quicker, is now freewheeling in the ram-air stream, and costing me almost nothing.

 

[kursplat]

I don’t think the water can flow so fast that it won’t cool off because the same would hold true to the engine - it wouldn’t heat the water because it’s flowing too fast.

yup, it's the same physics on both ends

 

[kursplat]

...I do that with a dash-mounted, dial-back, timing box; everybody should have one.

sorry, a little o/t. i used an MSD timing control years ago that didn't need an MSD ignition. the current 8680 only works with an MSD box. is that what your doing, or are you running a different setup? thanks

 

[AJ/FormS]

Old Jacob's unit with built in amp; takes signal from factory pick up, and fires big Accell SuperCoil. It also has a dial-type rev-limiter that makes a handy cruise-control on long trips.

 

[Oldmanmopar]

Earlier, you said coolant flowing too quickly through the radiator can cause overheating. Now you're saying it's the cavitation from the pump moving the coolant too quickly that causes the overheating. Which one is it? Both?

Both if you understand the concept of why flowing to fast causes it to run hot when flowing to fast and more at an idle with a manual pump.

If the radiator flows to much you need a re-stricter to slow the flow. If you have radiator that is to small and it restricts the flow it acts as a re- stricter. but you have no control . It is what it is. It is the same principle flowing through the radiator to fast it does not cool or restrict. Look I am not going to argue with you all , You do what you want. The information I am giving you is what Tony at that NASCAR shop showed me and I looked it up and what was in bold print above is what I found. Why don't they run a large diameter top hose with a high flow radiator on any race car. If you flow through the radiator to fast it will not cool. Why ? probably because it does not create coolant pressure in the block.

I have the biggest radiator you could buy from Be-cool in my car. It would have been a lot easier to just clamp a hose on the rad instead of welding that $1000 radiator up where the cap went on and the bungs to eliminate the big hoses. Could have just run a thermostat. Flowing to fast causes cavitation and causes it to run hot because it does not cool as efficient. You believe what ever you want . flowing through the rad to fast reduces block coolant pressure. This is seen more at an idle then at higher RPM's with a manual pump. Either way you look at it if it flows to fast it does not cool the motor due to lack of coolant being retained in the block from resistance from the stat or a 1 inch washer.


The same reason your trans cooler flows from bottom to the top . It keeps the cooler full from pressure of pushing the fluid out the top. if you run it from top to bottom you will create cavitation of the fluid Same deal with the oil cooler. keep the cooler full. I run both and twin electric fans and a CSR electric high flow pump. I run a 1" hose to slow down the flow so the block does not cavitate. The pump will not fill the block to the top at idle unless you re-strict it. The same thing the stat. does when it is open.

If any one with common sense would have read my post. I would not have to explain reducing flow promotes better cooling . It stops cavitation. slowing the flow cools the motor more efficient. No change in what I said . I just tried to explain it to some of you stupid people that have a answer for why nothing works that your not doing.

You all do what ever the hell makes your boat float. I know my car ran cool anywhere. any time, at any speed , at any out side temp. My motor is now 13-1 and rpm's to 9000 all day long if I want and I will run pump gas when I need to and have no worries at all. Some of you could cool your whimp's with a hand held fan.

I only tried to tell the OP what his problem could be. I like hearing some of the foolish stories. Or I wouldn't even try to explain. The friction I get is one of the reasons I will not sell or help members with parts on this site anymore They should all come to you. I don't answer PM's even with the better members that have been to my place.

I frequent other sites. My gold will run out soon like Daves and some others . Then who will be next. Nothing like chasing members that try and help others off of the site. Some of you question things just to cause trouble. Like "Yellow fish with no teeth just gums" Your negatives just chase members away. Your loss not mine. at 64 and all over the states racing everything that has a motor. I may have learned a couple of things. I do not claim to know it all , But what I do know is fact I will stand my ground.

I love factory cars as much as anyone and I build some that way. I have put a lot of money into race cars and learned the hard way. I am just trying to save you all the money I had to spend. Good luck to you on your idle cooling problems. "Yellow fish with no teeth just gums" should have all your answers and parts. he has been doing this for over 60 years. He should have you all covered.

 

[yellow rose]

Again, what? I made no mention of power... or magic for that matter...

Anyways...

I've had a shroud solve an over heat at idle issue.
The shroud did not cause any problems at highway speed, or well above.
Fan was placed/spaced properly in both instances. Same blade, different spacer.
Could a different pump or pulley have solved the problem as well? Maybe. A larger rad may have too.
Didnt have any of those at hand. Did have a shroud though. Didnt overheat at idle again.

Fan in shroud is more efficient at moving air. Creates a more uniform air flow.
Also it has the fan effectively drawing air thru the entire core...not just the much smaller swept area of the fan blades.

I agree with all of this. All of it. As long as we are talking idle and low speed driving. Once you get the road speed up, the fan and shroud actually become a hindrance. I can run without a fan if I want to. But I have to get rid of the thermostat. When I do that, I can't get enough temp in the engine. Without a fan, or a shroud and no thermostat and the engine won't overheat. I also can't get heat in the engine.

As for HP, someone mentioned cooling a 700 HP engine. I was pointing out that I don't know of an engine making 700 HP at idle, or even at a cruise, unless it's burning nitromethane.

One last thing. Some of these shrouds being sold today with radiators that have electric fans are horrible. They are so boxed in there is limited airflow, especially at road speed. So, you can't just bolt on a shroud and expect it to work.

 

[kursplat]

Old Jacob's unit with built in amp; takes signal from factory pick up, and fires big Accell SuperCoil. It also has a dial-type rev-limiter that makes a handy cruise-control on long trips.

thanks. ran a Jacobs ignition on my first dart. good stuff

 

[yellow rose]

Both if you understand the concept of why flowing to fast causes it to run hot when flowing to fast and more at an idle with a manual pump.

If the radiator flows to much you need a re-stricter to slow the flow. If you have radiator that is to small and it restricts the flow it acts as a re- stricter. but you have no control . It is what it is. It is the same principle flowing through the radiator to fast it does not cool or restrict. Look I am not going to argue with you all , You do what you want. The information I am giving you is what Tony at that NASCAR shop showed me and I looked it up and what was in bold print above is what I found. Why don't they run a large diameter top hose with a high flow radiator on any race car. If you flow through the radiator to fast it will not cool. Why ? probably because it does not create coolant pressure in the block.

I have the biggest radiator you could buy from Be-cool in my car. It would have been a lot easier to just clamp a hose on the rad instead of welding that $1000 radiator up where the cap went on and the bungs to eliminate the big hoses. Could have just run a thermostat. Flowing to fast causes cavitation and causes it to run hot because it does not cool as efficient. You believe what ever you want . flowing through the rad to fast reduces block coolant pressure. This is seen more at an idle then at higher RPM's with a manual pump. Either way you look at it if it flows to fast it does not cool the motor due to lack of coolant being retained in the block from resistance from the stat or a 1 inch washer.


The same reason your trans cooler flows from bottom to the top . It keeps the cooler full from pressure of pushing the fluid out the top. if you run it from top to bottom you will create cavitation of the fluid Same deal with the oil cooler. keep the cooler full. I run both and twin electric fans and a CSR electric high flow pump. I run a 1" hose to slow down the flow so the block does not cavitate. The pump will not fill the block to the top at idle unless you re-strict it. The same thing the stat. does when it is open.

If any one with common sense would have read my post. I would not have to explain reducing flow promotes better cooling . It stops cavitation. slowing the flow cools the motor more efficient. No change in what I said . I just tried to explain it to some of you stupid people that have a answer for why nothing works that your not doing.

You all do what ever the hell makes your boat float. I know my car ran cool anywhere. any time, at any speed , at any out side temp. My motor is now 13-1 and rpm's to 9000 all day long if I want and I will run pump gas when I need to and have no worries at all. Some of you could cool your whimp's with a hand held fan.

I only tried to tell the OP what his problem could be. I like hearing some of the foolish stories. Or I wouldn't even try to explain. The friction I get is one of the reasons I will not sell or help members with parts on this site anymore They should all come to you. I don't answer PM's even with the better members that have been to my place.

I frequent other sites. My gold will run out soon like Daves and some others . Then who will be next. Nothing like chasing members that try and help others off of the site. Some of you question things just to cause trouble. Like "Yellow fish with no teeth just gums" Your negatives just chase members away. Your loss not mine. at 64 and all over the states racing everything that has a motor. I may have learned a couple of things. I do not claim to know it all , But what I do know is fact I will stand my ground.

I love factory cars as much as anyone and I build some that way. I have put a lot of money into race cars and learned the hard way. I am just trying to save you all the money I had to spend. Good luck to you on your idle cooling problems. "Yellow fish with no teeth just gums" should have all your answers and parts. he has been doing this for over 60 years. He should have you all covered.

Ok. Reducing flow increases cooling. Got it.

That's wrong on so many levels I won't bother to say any more. Your own post shows you just don't get it. BTW, as soon as your gold membership is up, I'll start mine.

 

[Oldmanmopar]

Ok. Reducing flow increases cooling. Got it.

That's wrong on so many levels I won't bother to say any more. Your own post shows you just don't get it. BTW, as soon as your gold membership is up, I'll start mine.

I feel sorry for you definately a mental case. Do you live near Portland Oregon? I just don't get why you are intrigued with every thing I post. I never saw a bigger idiot then you.

Do you realize how ridicules you make yourself look. Many of members that come here think the same thing about you. When are you going off the deep end again and start using your foul mouth so the thread gets removed and others can't see the stupid things you say?. That is a common thing with you.

"Yellow fish with no teeth just lips" I think back to the members at the shop making that name. I cannot stop my self from laughing. You are actually a riot. But I love you anyway snowflake. LMFAO.

 

[T56MaxTorq]

Both if you understand the concept of why flowing to fast causes it to run hot when flowing to fast and more at an idle with a manual pump.

If the radiator flows to much you need a re-stricter to slow the flow. If you have radiator that is to small and it restricts the flow it acts as a re- stricter. but you have no control . It is what it is. It is the same principle flowing through the radiator to fast it does not cool or restrict. Look I am not going to argue with you all , You do what you want. The information I am giving you is what Tony at that NASCAR shop showed me and I looked it up and what was in bold print above is what I found. Why don't they run a large diameter top hose with a high flow radiator on any race car. If you flow through the radiator to fast it will not cool. Why ? probably because it does not create coolant pressure in the block.

I have the biggest radiator you could buy from Be-cool in my car. It would have been a lot easier to just clamp a hose on the rad instead of welding that $1000 radiator up where the cap went on and the bungs to eliminate the big hoses. Could have just run a thermostat. Flowing to fast causes cavitation and causes it to run hot because it does not cool as efficient. You believe what ever you want . flowing through the rad to fast reduces block coolant pressure. This is seen more at an idle then at higher RPM's with a manual pump. Either way you look at it if it flows to fast it does not cool the motor due to lack of coolant being retained in the block from resistance from the stat or a 1 inch washer.


The same reason your trans cooler flows from bottom to the top . It keeps the cooler full from pressure of pushing the fluid out the top. if you run it from top to bottom you will create cavitation of the fluid Same deal with the oil cooler. keep the cooler full. I run both and twin electric fans and a CSR electric high flow pump. I run a 1" hose to slow down the flow so the block does not cavitate. The pump will not fill the block to the top at idle unless you re-strict it. The same thing the stat. does when it is open.

If any one with common sense would have read my post. I would not have to explain reducing flow promotes better cooling . It stops cavitation. slowing the flow cools the motor more efficient. No change in what I said . I just tried to explain it to some of you stupid people that have a answer for why nothing works that your not doing.

You all do what ever the hell makes your boat float. I know my car ran cool anywhere. any time, at any speed , at any out side temp. My motor is now 13-1 and rpm's to 9000 all day long if I want and I will run pump gas when I need to and have no worries at all. Some of you could cool your whimp's with a hand held fan.

I only tried to tell the OP what his problem could be. I like hearing some of the foolish stories. Or I wouldn't even try to explain. The friction I get is one of the reasons I will not sell or help members with parts on this site anymore They should all come to you. I don't answer PM's even with the better members that have been to my place.

I frequent other sites. My gold will run out soon like Daves and some others . Then who will be next. Nothing like chasing members that try and help others off of the site. Some of you question things just to cause trouble. Like "Yellow fish with no teeth just gums" Your negatives just chase members away. Your loss not mine. at 64 and all over the states racing everything that has a motor. I may have learned a couple of things. I do not claim to know it all , But what I do know is fact I will stand my ground.

I love factory cars as much as anyone and I build some that way. I have put a lot of money into race cars and learned the hard way. I am just trying to save you all the money I had to spend. Good luck to you on your idle cooling problems. "Yellow fish with no teeth just gums" should have all your answers and parts. he has been doing this for over 60 years. He should have you all covered.

Hey I wasn’t looking for a fight just conversation. I really appreciate everyone’s input because it makes me think about things specific to my build that ya’ll don’t know and I can ponder on possible solutions and write some off or put some in motion. That’s why we’re all here.

I just don’t think cavitation is a problem here and I don’t really understand your definition of it. I understand cavitation to only occur inside of a pump, the suction side, usually when the suction side is restricted or the pressure side has blockage. Not in the block. Not in the radiator. Not in an oil cooler. There may be some things that a restricted water system will cure in nascar but that is a very specific and unique vehicle and engine that probably has a lot of other goofy **** going on inside to solve problems normal people with semi-normal engines like myself have. I’m not restricting my cooling system. My block is full of water - head to toe, idle or redline, or sitting out in the garage. Who on earth has time to play with restrictor plates to find the Goldie-locks of restriction that works only for their vehicle?

 

[mopowers]

If you flow through the radiator to fast it will not cool. Why ? probably because it does not create coolant pressure in the block.

Where do you read this stuff???

 

[T56MaxTorq]

Ok; let's talk about how much power that Thermostatically controlled monster 7 blade fan actually costs you; not what the magazine says it could.
What I mean is; sure, a big direct-drive 7-blade, hi-attack angle, all steel fan will take some power to spin 6000,
but who in there right mind would run one like that?
Firstly, 30mph in first gear with 4.30s will be ~3900 at zero slip, perhaps as much as 4200 at WOT.So at this speed/rpm,with ram-air coming on line, the fan can be decoupled.
Second;from here on ram-air is gonna do the job.
So if you have a turbo'd engine, which is gonna be smoking the tires still at 30 mph, you already have a preponderance of power so even if that fan sucked 100 hp at 30 mph, nobody would care. Now, if you has a slanty, well yeah that would hurt,lol.
So how much power will that big fan really cost you?
Well,on my rig;IDK and I don't care. It is far more important to me that the stat is open when the rpm hits. So I run a high-flow stat branded 195*, that keeps my coolant at 205*F, to keep my aluminum heads warm.That's my minimum coolant temp. And that big fan keeps the maximum just a couple of degrees hotter, cycling in and out playing tag with the stat. It's all automatic, and 100% reliable.
I have 3.55s and a manual trans, with a 3.09 low in it; so 30mph is ~4100rpm, or would be if I wasn't standing on the skinny pedal.Incoming ram-air decouples my fan, and keeps it off until I slow down. The stat closes up to keep the engine at my chosen minimum, the heads stay warm, and we are cooking!
At idle, I never feel that fan cutting in/out; I suppose it's on full-time as it should be, as the stat is targeting 205*F. The 367 can't feel it, even as I retard the timing to reduce the strength of the power pulses, to idle around the parking lot at 4mph, which being 550 rpm. I do that with a dash-mounted, dial-back, timing box; everybody should have one. But 550 is the minimum the engine has enough power to to this at. I guess if the fan really sucked 30hp or whatever HR said, this would be impossible.
In any case, after about 30 mph my monster-fan, that everybody tells me to get rid of, cuz my car would so much quicker, is now freewheeling in the ram-air stream, and costing me almost nothing.

Hey I never doubted ya on the fan! I remember a thread about those videos a few years back. And you’re absolutely right spinning that mega-cfm fan is gonna take some power! But the video compared their lightweight low-cfm fan to the big one - total BS. Of course their fan takes less power! It’s movong less air.

I was, however, was foolish and bought a hd flex fan and thought it was enough to cool me down. Now here I am lol

 

[kursplat]

Hey I wasn’t looking for a fight just conversation.

cooling, ammeter bypass and wheel fitting... watch out

 

[Oldmanmopar]

If you have a thermostat you should be OK. But Cavitation can also be before the pump if there is air there. I will post a picture of how they did away with the question of that with a petcock put in the $400 pump . The cavitation I am talking about is created when the motor is at idle.

If the water flows from the motor with no restriction at all. The free flow does not allow the pump to pressurize the coolant in the block. With out pressure in the block by the coolant running out as fast as it enters. It causes air pockets and bubbles to form at the top of the block and in the head. this makes more heat up there and causes the temp to rise while idling if your sender is still in the coolant.

I have an electric pump which is always at max flow it is not hindered by RPMs so a 1 inch works fine for me . If a manual pump is used you may need a smaller hole than a 1" at idle. do to the fact your water pressure going in is less.
That is why they sell three different 1" 3/4" AND 5/8". We made our own in 1/16 increments.No motor is the same . it depends on the Pump flow , and the cylinder wall thickness and the coolant passages. also type of head

The idea is to keep the air bubbles comming out of the pump from cavitating in the top of the block or heads We checked this with a infa-red temp. gauge. While idling we checked the head and block temp and compared it to the bottom of the cylinder. If there is an air cavity the reading will be much greater than the bottom. This will distort the cylinder and can cause damage. The best way we found is to run the smallest you can without it running hot at RPM's. The more pressure you can create without effecting the the high RPM cooling the better you are.

Pressure in most blocks could be up to 22# very hard to measure before the stat. That has nothing to do with the cap PSI .because the bottom hose is pulling coolant lowering the pressure in the rad. The idea is to use pressure to keep the top of the cylinders and the head full at idle with a manual pump . If the water flows out of the block without resistance it will cavitate. This is a common problem. and the cause of most detonation . The factory thermostat is designed for a standard cyl. wall thickness . Good race cars are tested and restricted accordingly.

You may be good but it doesn't hurt to check. Take your stat out and try a 3/4". See if it still runs hot at idle. and the same as it did at rpm's as with the stat. You can go smaller if it still runs cool at RPM's. As soon as you see it is raising the temp at RPM's your to small. go back to the next size bigger.

That is the reason we made are own with 1/16 increments. He wanted it perfect for the street. In a NASCAR they only worry about the temp at RPMs. A one inch hose is good . Tony Hirschman showed me this, He builds Modified NASCAR's and is on Kyle bush's team. His son Matt is the East coast champion. in Modified NASCAR . That is where they designed my cooling system for my NASCAR truck motor in my street car at the time. Kyle bush is amazed at what Tony does . I idled around with 12 1/2 -1 all day. on pump gas. I could take the car to 9000 on the street as long as it didn't load the motor at RPMs . and It didn't, It would turn the tires in drive. But on the track with slicks different story It needed race fuel.

The car never ran hot with this system when he did it. as long as the motor is full to the top at all rpm's you should be good. My son has built Nitro and methanol motors. diesel pullers. and big liquid bikes. He does work for Hirschman's on the Chassis in return for the fragola braided parts and help we get there. We walk out with what ever we might need . It saves the many trips and time if you have to buy what you think you may need one at a time.

Trust me I would not steer you wrong. My son and Tony play with whats new not what use to be. All you can do is try a re-stricter. It may be your problem. Only you can test it. Remember go smaller one size at a time. once you raise the temp at RPMs go back to the last size. Stats usually flow 1" some 3/4" as we have seen. There is logic to why they sell these restrictors. Once you have the right size take a ball and some sort of die and taper the re-strictor put the protruding side toward the hose. Good luck