"HELP" Power brakes very touchy

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gunmetal72

Life is a dark ride
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I was having issues with the brakes on my Duster and discovered the rubber bladder inside the booster was split causing it to lose vacuum so I opted for a new booster. The brakes work now but are very touchy. I am hoping someone might be able to tell me about some adjustment I could try. Just to give more info, when I replaced the booster, I also changed the master as the new booster came with a master. I also had to change the rod that comes from the brake pedal to the booster. I have tried adjusting that rod in both directions but no help there as I discovered it only adjusts the height of the pedal. I have not adjusted the rod that pushes the master because I did not think it would make any difference. I would welcome anyone who might has any ideas on how to get the brakes to be not quite so touchy.
Thanks................Dale
 
You said;
"I have tried adjusting that rod in both directions but no help there as I discovered it only adjusts the height of the pedal. ."
This is not exactly correct. Yes it adjusts the height but that is NOT it's primary function. The end you cannot see is supposed to be seated in the control valve, and the control valve has to be in the fully closed position with the pedal parked.
When you push on the pedal, that rod is supposed to open the control valve, which then allows atmospheric air to enter the power-chamber. the backside of the chamber has been evacuated, by intake vacuum, and so the air introduced into the power chamber can do the work of applying the brakes for you.
As soon as you stop lowering the pedal, the control valve is supposed to close and hold the diaphragm in place. When you release the pedal, the control valve closes the atmospheric port and opens the dump port, so the pedal can be returned to it's parking position, by a brig return spring.
Now, if the control valve is already boosting, because the control rod has been adjusted too long, then when you step on the pedal, boost will be instantaneous and more than you were expecting, and is now difficult to modulate. So then

IF
The pushrod from the booster to the brake pedal has been adjusted back and forth, with no change, and, the pedal has returned to it's parking spot, at the uppermost limit of travel;
THEN
Either,
>the booster is wrong for the application, or
>the control valve inside the booster is not working properly/possibly broken


EDITED for clarity, read it again.
 
Last edited:
IF
The pushrod from the booster to the M/C has been adjusted back and forth, with no change;
THEN
the control valve inside the booster is not working right/possibly broken;
I have not tried adjusting that rod, would I shorten or lengthen it?
 
I was having issues with the brakes on my Duster and discovered the rubber bladder inside the booster was split causing it to lose vacuum so I opted for a new booster. The brakes work now but are very touchy. I am hoping someone might be able to tell me about some adjustment I could try. Just to give more info, when I replaced the booster, I also changed the master as the new booster came with a master. I also had to change the rod that comes from the brake pedal to the booster. I have tried adjusting that rod in both directions but no help there as I discovered it only adjusts the height of the pedal. I have not adjusted the rod that pushes the master because I did not think it would make any difference. I would welcome anyone who might has any ideas on how to get the brakes to be not quite so touchy.
Thanks................Dale
Dale,

1. Is this 4-wheel drums or disk brake /drums?

2. 9" or 10" drums?

3. Post a Pic of the master cylinder
 
Drum brakes with a Disk / Drum MC will do that.
True. there is also different hydraulic valve blocks from disc to drum if I recall. If it has been converted to disc from drum maybe the valving hasn't? its a possibility or worth checking. Also piston diameter of the MC is different manual to power brakes
 
when I replaced the booster, I also changed the master as the new booster came with a master.

i'll roll some dice and say that it's probably the master. i'm guessing you bought one of those "universal" ones they sell that's based on the corvette master and the bias is all wrong.

or as mentioned up thread you may have a drum/drum master
 
Oh boy
FIRSTLY
> IF the brakes slow the car as you would expect, and
> IF you can lock the front brakes to skid the tires at say 20 mph, and
> IF the pedal does not sink on it's own, while you are holding a constant pressure on it, with the engine OFF, and the booster relaxed;
> THEN the M/C is working.

SECONDLY
IDK how many times it's been said;
In the Time period from 67 to IDK/maybe the late 80s, as regards A/F bodies; Year for year, there is no meaningful mechanical differences in the guts, between a disc/drum M/C, and an all-drum dual M/C.
The only Meaningful differences are; the sizes of the bores, the sizes of the reservoirs, the use of the little hold-off (residual)valves, and the rod-retention system. They can all be swapped amongst eachother, so long as the disc brake port never has a working residual valve in it.
And yes, I know about the different down-stream, brake control valves.

To answer your question,
riddle me this;
During installation, did you have to compress the pedal-rod into the booster to fit the brake-pedal retaining bolt?
If no, then don't bother trying to change the length of the pedal-rod. But-um
If yes, that ain't right;
and the next questions are;
1) has the engine been changed from 6-cylinder to 8-cylinder, and if yes, then
2) was the car originally a 9" brake car? and if yes, then
3) is the brake pedal still from the 6-cylinder car?
4) the point is that the six-cylinder pedal ratio is different from the Disc/drum set-up.
5) If you need it, I can supply a pedal set-up, that I took off a 1973 Dart with Power front-discs and 10" drums on the back.

Now then,
as to adjusting the pushrod length on the firewall side; between the M/C and the booster;
Quick lesson;
>This rod must be adjusted after the booster is installed................ because, we gotta know where the control valve is fully closed.
>this rod must be short enough so that the guts of the M/C are parked at back of the chamber, to expose the Compensating port. If the C-Port is not thus exposed, but the M/C is otherwise functioning correctly, then; the brakes will work fine. But the pedal will continuously, over time, drop, as the fluid in the lines is not being continuously replenished at the C-port. Then one day, the pedal is so low that one or the other end of the car can no longer brake for lack of fluid pressure.
> If this rod is sloppy loose, it will take a lot of pedal-travel to begin pushing the Power-Pistons down the road. The control valve in the booster is desperately trying to provide assist, but until the slack is taken up, it can't do a doggone thing. Even then, until the power-pistons get there work done of pushing fluid down the road, still nothing is going on.
Then, suddenly, the pads hit the disc and the shoes hit the drums and the power-pistons are finally giving feedback to the booster and
BAM!
the booster is in full attack mode.
Moral of the story; the pushrod is better if a lil short, than if a lil long, BUT
don't let the pushrod be too short.
Knowing this now, you can, in a narrow window, customize the brake action, by adjusting that pushrod, until you like it.
I'da told you this first, but then, you wouldn't have learned much. But now, every time you get into your Dad's old Dodge whatever, and hit the windshield on the first brake application, you'll know why that's happening, and how to change it.
 
Last edited:
Oh boy
FIRSTLY
> IF the brakes slow the car as you would expect, and
> IF you can lock the front brakes to skid the tires at say 20 mph, and
> IF the pedal does not sink on it's own, while you are holding a constant pressure on it, with the engine OFF, and the booster relaxed;
> THEN the M/C is working.

SECONDLY
IDK how many times it's been said;
In the Time period from 67 to IDK/maybe the late 80s, as regards A/F bodies; Year for year, there is no meaningful mechanical differences in the guts, between a disc/drum M/C, and an all-drum dual M/C.
The only Meaningful differences are; the sizes of the bores, the sizes of the reservoirs, the use of the little hold-off (residual)valves, and the rod-retention system. They can all be swapped amongst eachother, so long as the disc brake port never has a working residual valve in it.
And yes, I know about the different down-stream, brake control valves.

To answer your question,
riddle me this;
During installation, did you have to compress the pedal-rod into the booster to fit the brake-pedal retaining bolt?
If no, then don't bother trying to change the length of the pedal-rod. But-um
If yes, that ain't right;
and the next questions are;
1) has the engine been changed from 6-cylinder to 8-cylinder, and if yes, then
2) was the car originally a 9" brake car? and if yes, then
3) is the brake pedal still from the 6-cylinder car?
4) the point is that the six-cylinder pedal ratio is different from the Disc/drum set-up.
5) If you need it, I can supply a pedal set-up, that I took off a 1973 Dart with Power front-discs and 10" drums on the back.

Now then,
as to adjusting the pushrod length on the firewall side; between the M/C and the booster;
Quick lesson;
>This rod must be adjusted after the booster is installed................ because, we gotta know where the control valve is fully closed.
>this rod must be short enough so that the guts of the M/C are parked at back of the chamber, to expose the Compensating port. If the C-Port is not thus exposed, but the M/C is otherwise functioning correctly, then; the brakes will work fine. But the pedal will continuously, over time, drop, as the fluid in the lines is not being continuously replenished at the C-port. Then one day, the pedal is so low that one or the other end of the car can no longer brake for lack of fluid pressure.
> If this rod is sloppy loose, it will take a lot of pedal-travel to begin pushing the Power-Pistons down the road. The control valve in the booster is desperately trying to provide assist, but until the slack is taken up, it can't do a doggone thing. Even then, until the power-pistons get there work done of pushing fluid down the road, still nothing is going on.
Then, suddenly, the pads hit the disc and the shoes hit the drums and the power-pistons are finally giving feedback to the booster and
BAM!
the booster is in full attack mode.
Moral of the story; the pushrod is better if a lil short, than if a lil long, BUT
don't let the pushrod be too short.
Knowing this now, you can, in a narrow window, customize the brake action, by adjusting that pushrod, until you like it.
I'da told you this first, but then, you wouldn't have learned much. But now, every time you get into your Dad's old Dodge whatever, and hit the windshield on the first brake application, you'll know why that's happening, and how to change it.
The car has always had the 340 as it is #'s matching. The new rod that goes through the firewall needed to be adjusted as it was set too long. The pedal, when pushed, has about 2 in of travel before the brakes come on. So in other words the brakes hit hard after the 2 in of travel is taken up. If I continue to hold the brake pedal, it holds solid and does not go down any further. The brake pedal feels good when pushed and holds with about 6 or 7 inches to the floor, (it does not go to the floor) I should also tell you that I have not adjusted the rod between the booster and the master.
 
You said;
"I have tried adjusting that rod in both directions but no help there as I discovered it only adjusts the height of the pedal. ."
This is not exactly correct. Yes it adjusts the height but that is NOT it's primary function. The end you cannot see is supposed to be seated in the control valve, and the control valve has to be in the fully closed position with the pedal parked.
When you push on the pedal, that rod is supposed to open the control valve, which then allows atmospheric air to enter the power-chamber. the backside of the chamber has been evacuated, by intake vacuum, and so the air introduced into the power chamber can do the work of applying the brakes for you.
As soon as you stop lowering the pedal, the control valve is supposed to close and hold the diaphragm in place. When you release the pedal, the control valve closes the atmospheric port and opens the dump port, so the pedal can be returned to it's parking position, by a brig return spring.
Now, if the control valve is already boosting, because the control rod has been adjusted too long, then when you step on the pedal, boost will be instantaneous and more than you were expecting, and is now difficult to modulate. So then

IF
The pushrod from the booster to the brake pedal has been adjusted back and forth, with no change, and, the pedal has returned to it's parking spot, at the uppermost limit of travel;
THEN
Either,
>the booster is wrong for the application, or
>the control valve inside the booster is not working properly/possibly broken


EDITED for clarity, read it again.
Here is a link to what I bought.
 
Check the brore of the old master cylinder against the bore of the new master cylinder.

If the new master cylinder bore diameter increased it will make the brakes touchy with less control > like On or Off.

A smaller bore master gives a lot more control and a little longer stroke on the pedal.

Touchy manual brakes upgrade usually go from 1 1/16" down to 15/16" > makes a nice improvement. Feel more in control of the car.

Call Dr. Diff, he is great at recommending the correct master cylinder.

☆☆☆☆☆
 
The car has always had the 340 as it is #'s matching. The new rod that goes through the firewall needed to be adjusted as it was set too long. The pedal, when pushed, has about 2 in of travel before the brakes come on. So in other words the brakes hit hard after the 2 in of travel is taken up. If I continue to hold the brake pedal, it holds solid and does not go down any further. The brake pedal feels good when pushed and holds with about 6 or 7 inches to the floor, (it does not go to the floor) I should also tell you that I have not adjusted the rod between the booster and the master.
Yeah I think your P-rod may be a lil short. It's really hard to tell from here tho.
I can give you a definitive test tho.
Just back the nuts off the M/C about a quarter inch and then slide a couple of 1/8th metal spacers in the gaps near the studs, then tighten the nuts and go for a spin up and down the driveway so to speak.. If it's way worse, then we're on the right track. Easy does it!
If I'm right, make the P-rod Two full turns longer, remove the spacers, and bolt it tight. Then another road test. If it's now better than it was yesterday, then we're on the right track. If you you get the idea to adjust some more, then one turn atta time. If the pushrod gets to be too long, then if you shine a light down into your reservoir, you will see the shine of the power-piston, in the C-port. A hint is Ok, maybe even up to half covered; but ideally the port should be dark. Don't use a useless LED flash-light for this test. I only use clear brake-fluid.

I should warn you, that if the pushrod gets to be much too long, and you press real hard down on the pedal like you would in a panic stop, this circumstance can BREAK the plastic-control valve in the booster. When this happens, the pedal will be like an ON/OFF switch, with almost no ability to modulate it.

Personally;
1) I don't like the dual diaphragm boosters. I have never been happy with how they work. Nor have I been able to make them work satisfactorily, with a low idle-vacuum.
2) I don't like the feel of a bigger than 1inch bore.
3) I really do like the 15/16ths M/C, with a big F-body booster, which is what I ended up using in my combo; which is; 3.55s, a manual-trans, and a 367 that pumps 185 or more psi cylinder pressure at 11.3Scr .
4) the F-body Booster that I finally snagged, (third booster I tried), is still working down to 9inches of idle vacuum, once it has been evacuated, which only takes couple of seconds of run-time, with my 4-speed combo. Once the car is moving, the vacuum never gets that low again.
5) yes the 15/16ths M/C does have a lil more pedal travel, which I like, but the ability to smoothly modulate the brakes, while simultaneously trying to work the other two pedals is well worth it.
 
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Prod length is not going to have any appreciable effect on braking force.
You need to check a couple of things:
- M/c bore is correct for that disc/drum combo
- the p/rod is in the correct position on the pedal. For power brakes it will be the lower hole if it has two holes.

If above is correct, & booster is new, I would suspect the valve in the booster. All boosters have some type of valving that modulates the force your foot puts on the pedal. With no way of modulating the force, you would have either nothing...or full on. I suspect that valve could be faulty.
 
after the description of the brake actuation to pedal movement, i'm gonna take a WAVSG* that the booster is bunk.

just cuz it's new, doesn't mean it's any good.

(*Wild *** Very Scientific Guess)
 
If the first inch or more of pedal travel is wasted moving the rear shoes into contact with the drums, due to poor adjustment, - you're 3/4 of the way thru the pedal stroke before you even feel "pedal", never mind apply .
just saying . .
 
Brake hydraulic problems are such a pain.

Spend the money and they still don't work.


☆☆☆☆☆
 
There is no real braking action [ enough pressure applied to start retardation ] until all four shoes/disc pads come up against resistance. It is not just the rear brake shoes.
 
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