Help with Valvesprings and valve float. Noob

Small Block Mopar Engine

  1. gzig5

    gzig5 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    618
    Likes Received:
    437
    Joined:
    May 3, 2018
    Location:
    Mequon, WI
    Local Time:
    7:06 PM
    The bushed stainless steel PRW rockers won't break the bank and should hold up a hell of a lot better. I think B3RE uses them. Or dig up a set of old 273 rockers off the sales forum or Ebay. Anything is a lot cheaper than what is going to result from running that needle bearing design.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
    • 340Duster247

      340Duster247 Well-Known Member

      Messages:
      805
      Likes Received:
      253
      Joined:
      Dec 5, 2012
      Location:
      Calgary
      Local Time:
      6:06 PM
      Yah I know. Bullshit eh..but when you don't know alot about valvetrain and a professional tells you what's up I guess you take there word for it. Anyways funny story about the rockers. I actually ordered the stainless ones and this is what showed up...my parts guy (one of my best friends) types the wrong part number and since being Canadian and everything is F*#king special order they were non returnable and it would of been on his ass...so I asked on trusty FORABODIESONLY if it's ok to run the aluminum needle bearing style and I got the "you'll be fine", "I run em on my 800 HP turbo small block", "been using them for years, no problem"......
       
    • 340Duster247

      340Duster247 Well-Known Member

      Messages:
      805
      Likes Received:
      253
      Joined:
      Dec 5, 2012
      Location:
      Calgary
      Local Time:
      6:06 PM
      I don't know about you but an extra $800 out of nowhere breaks the bank.
       
    • B3RE

      B3RE B³ Racing Engines

      Messages:
      526
      Likes Received:
      462
      Joined:
      Aug 22, 2013
      Location:
      USA
      Local Time:
      8:06 PM
      While I'm no fan of the aluminum rockers, mostly from a design perspective, I think you can get by with them. I have shafts in stock, and can send them with a geometry kit, to take care of that side of things. I know money is a concern, but, enough things were done incorrectly the first time that getting it right is going to cost a few bucks. Its inevitable, and sucks, but better than destroying the whole motor from a failure that could have been avoided.

      Btw, it isn't hard to type the wrong part number. The 32 prefix is steel, and the 33 is aluminum, but the rest is the same. One slip of a fat finger and "voila", you have aluminum rockers.
       
      Last edited: Oct 6, 2019
      • Like Like x 3
      • nm9stheham

        nm9stheham Well-Known Member

        Messages:
        11,115
        Likes Received:
        3192
        Joined:
        Dec 20, 2013
        Location:
        Waynesboro, VA
        Local Time:
        8:06 PM
        I got that... the Hughes set was not cheap. I bought these AL needle types pretty cheap to see what would happen.. .and it happened LOL.

        FWIW..... I've pulled the needle bearing assemblies out and have bought some stock bushing material to cut and to press into the rockers to try a fix on my PQ rockers. I bought some stock cast bushings.... .875"ID x 1.125"ODx 3.5" long each. I'll saw these down and straighten the ends and press them into the rockers. The bushing clearance is snug on some new MP rocker shafts, and the resulting bushing length will be about 2/3 of the total width of the rockers. I think it will carry the load well enough (I did some numbers on the pressures), and the contact forces will be way less than those wide-spread and narrow needles. So this is a trial but I figure I have some way to try to reuse these rockers and get rid of the needle bearing assemblies.

        Not sure what to recommend to you. You have high lift and pretty high lift rates, and it is all going to be hard on the rockers and shafts. I don't think there is anything cheap that you are going to find to work with this setup. It might be time to think about backing off on the cam and getting by with something like the 273 rockers for a while, 'til you get some $$ saved up to take another whack at this.
         
      • PRH

        PRH Well-Known Member

        Messages:
        879
        Likes Received:
        1205
        Joined:
        Dec 14, 2018
        Location:
        So. Burlington, Vt
        Local Time:
        8:06 PM
        That doesn’t explain what appears to be a silver ring on the top of the retainer where the black oxide coating is being rubbed off.
         
      • 340Duster247

        340Duster247 Well-Known Member

        Messages:
        805
        Likes Received:
        253
        Joined:
        Dec 5, 2012
        Location:
        Calgary
        Local Time:
        6:06 PM
        That was from me trying to remove the old springs last season with a spring remove tool that you use the hammer. And reinstall the Comps with a hand squeeze style valve spring compressor. Kept sliding around on top of the retainer when getting centered.

        15704168384537237601816731939714.jpg

        15704169216306295670092955210161.jpg
         
      • 340Duster247

        340Duster247 Well-Known Member

        Messages:
        805
        Likes Received:
        253
        Joined:
        Dec 5, 2012
        Location:
        Calgary
        Local Time:
        6:06 PM
        Ok guys a little update. I.took a closer look at where the gouges are on the rocker shafts , and they're being caused by the very thin shims that were used. The areas that are nice and smooth had no shim in that spot... I noticed it when I checked the other side and there was only one cut mark on that shaft.
        15704181065567125851105720925991.jpg
         
        • Like Like x 1
        • PRH

          PRH Well-Known Member

          Messages:
          879
          Likes Received:
          1205
          Joined:
          Dec 14, 2018
          Location:
          So. Burlington, Vt
          Local Time:
          8:06 PM
          You have the advantage of having the pieces in your hands........ and ultimately it’s your decision on how to proceed.......but this certainly doesn’t just look like it was caused by the shims.

          630EDF7E-80BE-4E94-BF4D-D4AE5416F27C.png
           
          • Agree Agree x 2
          • nm9stheham

            nm9stheham Well-Known Member

            Messages:
            11,115
            Likes Received:
            3192
            Joined:
            Dec 20, 2013
            Location:
            Waynesboro, VA
            Local Time:
            8:06 PM
            Maybe the OP is referring to something else? If 'gouges' means the troughs that PRH is showing, those are not caused by shims. My PRW PQ rocker needles damaged the shafts in exactly the same way that you shims. The rockers and shims can't move that far back and forth to make that wide trough. And, yes, not all the needles did that kind of damage at every location in our case, so I can see where one side could be OK and not the other.

            BTW, if you wanted to try those rockers as they are on some different shafts, you might have better results. Maybe there is a source of hardened shafts better than the one that came with these rockers.
             
          • gzig5

            gzig5 Well-Known Member

            Messages:
            618
            Likes Received:
            437
            Joined:
            May 3, 2018
            Location:
            Mequon, WI
            Local Time:
            7:06 PM
            $800???
            The PRW are about $425 from several sources. I actually got mine off amazon for $220 on a sale/markdown. There are deals if you look and sales at the holidays.

            You can find 273 arms and shafts in many places for less than $200. I'm sure you could post a want add on FABO.
            FACTORY MOPAR SMALL BLOCK ADJUSTABLE ROCKER ARMS 273 318 340 360 | eBay
             
            • Disagree Disagree x 1
            • 340Duster247

              340Duster247 Well-Known Member

              Messages:
              805
              Likes Received:
              253
              Joined:
              Dec 5, 2012
              Location:
              Calgary
              Local Time:
              6:06 PM
              Man for the 3rd time I'm Canadian!
              500usd
              100usd shipping
              =799.77cad
              +5% tax
              total $839.75.........
               
            • 340Duster247

              340Duster247 Well-Known Member

              Messages:
              805
              Likes Received:
              253
              Joined:
              Dec 5, 2012
              Location:
              Calgary
              Local Time:
              6:06 PM
              I'm not talking about the wide wear marks from where the bearings sit. It's where the shims sit there is a small cut mark that you can feel with your finger nail.

              749909280.png
               
            • 340Duster247

              340Duster247 Well-Known Member

              Messages:
              805
              Likes Received:
              253
              Joined:
              Dec 5, 2012
              Location:
              Calgary
              Local Time:
              6:06 PM
              Under very thin shim

              1867931503.png
               
            • gzig5

              gzig5 Well-Known Member

              Messages:
              618
              Likes Received:
              437
              Joined:
              May 3, 2018
              Location:
              Mequon, WI
              Local Time:
              7:06 PM
              So sell yours and go for the less expensive ones on ebay or other sources?? they do have ebay, Kiji, and other FABO members in Canada don't they?

              Or just put that roller bearing crap back in the motor and see how much money it takes to build a new one when the rockers chew through the shafts and all the other stuff that will break. New rockers and shafts would be a big bargain.
               
              • Thanks! Thanks! x 1
              • PRH

                PRH Well-Known Member

                Messages:
                879
                Likes Received:
                1205
                Joined:
                Dec 14, 2018
                Location:
                So. Burlington, Vt
                Local Time:
                8:06 PM
                That thin line wouldn’t bother me a bit.

                The railroad tracks are the big problem imo.
                 
                • Agree Agree x 3
                • Wyrmrider

                  Wyrmrider Well-Known Member

                  Messages:
                  1,841
                  Likes Received:
                  819
                  Joined:
                  Sep 5, 2016
                  Location:
                  los angeles
                  Local Time:
                  5:06 PM
                  "Plus the stock rockers actually change ratio through the lift cycle in a way that somewhat"

                  all rockers change ratio through the lift cycle
                  only accurate a perpendicular to the valve stem (parallel to the retainer) center of shaft to center of roller

                  cam grinder was counting on getting it right
                   
                • Wyrmrider

                  Wyrmrider Well-Known Member

                  Messages:
                  1,841
                  Likes Received:
                  819
                  Joined:
                  Sep 5, 2016
                  Location:
                  los angeles
                  Local Time:
                  5:06 PM
                  if you have to run needles on shafts
                  No chrome shafts
                  shafts must be case deep hardened not electro- induction or flame hardened
                  check carefully
                  rocker arm specialists has the real thing for sure
                  best are case hardened chrome molly shafts
                   
                • nm9stheham

                  nm9stheham Well-Known Member

                  Messages:
                  11,115
                  Likes Received:
                  3192
                  Joined:
                  Dec 20, 2013
                  Location:
                  Waynesboro, VA
                  Local Time:
                  8:06 PM
                • 340Duster247

                  340Duster247 Well-Known Member

                  Messages:
                  805
                  Likes Received:
                  253
                  Joined:
                  Dec 5, 2012
                  Location:
                  Calgary
                  Local Time:
                  6:06 PM
                  Thanks for all the advice guys. Have decided to swap to a solid roller cam. Looking at the Lunati 40200734 , and I'm thinking it's best to ditch the PRW needle junk. I knew the needle bearing style was sketchy and a bad idea from day one, but as I said in earlier post it's what we ended up with by accident unfortunately.
                  I'm not sure what's the best budget rocker brand/style out there but I'll have to do some digging.
                  On a totally different side note, I stopped by my original engine builders shop yesterday to tell him about what's up and here's what he had to say about my current set up/issues.
                  - "thoes 987 springs are more then enough for your cam.

                  -geomerty could be better but not awful.
                  -somthings definetly moving around in there.
                  -i think it's a valvetrain weight issue, needs titanium retainers, and let's check the weight of the valves.
                  - not sure what's causing the rocker shaft marking issues..."
                  Haha well, not sure if any of that makes sense..like I said I'm noob and learning as much as I can when it comes to valvetrain.

                  Anyways here's the specs for the cam, lots of guys on here had good luck with it , very similar combo to me.

                  Cam Style:Mechanical roller tappet

                  Basic Operating RPM Range:3,200-7,200

                  Intake Duration at 050 inch Lift:255

                  Exhaust Duration at 050 inch Lift:263

                  Duration at 050 inch Lift:255 int./263 exh.

                  Advertised Intake Duration:285

                  Advertised Exhaust Duration:293

                  Advertised Duration:285 int./293 exh.

                  Intake Valve Lift with Factory Rocker Arm Ratio:0.600 in.

                  Exhaust Valve Lift with Factory Rocker Arm Ratio:0.600 in.

                  Valve Lift with Factory Rocker Arm Ratio:0.600 int./0.600 exh.

                  Lobe Separation (degrees):110

                  Intake Valve Lash:0.016 in.

                  Exhaust Valve Lash:0.016 in.
                   
                • yellow rose

                  yellow rose Doctor of Thinkology.

                  Messages:
                  18,112
                  Likes Received:
                  14140
                  Joined:
                  Jun 19, 2015
                  Location:
                  Living on the razors edge
                  Local Time:
                  5:06 PM



                  Remind us what heads you have. If they are OE you are going to be hard pressed to get enough spring in there for a roller cam. It's just about impossible.

                  As for the geometry, it's either right, or it's not. I can promise you that guy wouldn't let a Chevy go out the door with compromised geometry, but he will a Chrylser because he doesn't know how to fix it.

                  As for rockers, I'll say it again. Dollar for dollar the PRW stainless rocker is the best rocker for non W2 type heads out there. You will need to correct the geometry no matter what you do.
                   
                  • Like Like x 1
                  • yellow rose

                    yellow rose Doctor of Thinkology.

                    Messages:
                    18,112
                    Likes Received:
                    14140
                    Joined:
                    Jun 19, 2015
                    Location:
                    Living on the razors edge
                    Local Time:
                    5:06 PM
                    Ok, just saw the eddy heads. You can get enough spring in that head for a roller.

                    I'm not a fan of any cam off the shelf. I'd spend some time and call around and see what other cam grinders say.
                     
                  • Wyrmrider

                    Wyrmrider Well-Known Member

                    Messages:
                    1,841
                    Likes Received:
                    819
                    Joined:
                    Sep 5, 2016
                    Location:
                    los angeles
                    Local Time:
                    5:06 PM
                    agree with YR
                    sleaving/ bushing rockers is a good answer
                    try Jim at Racer Brown and Bullet
                    but Mike Jones inverse radius profiles are the best if you can do the wait- but racing seasons over so give mike a shot
                     
                  • yellow rose

                    yellow rose Doctor of Thinkology.

                    Messages:
                    18,112
                    Likes Received:
                    14140
                    Joined:
                    Jun 19, 2015
                    Location:
                    Living on the razors edge
                    Local Time:
                    5:06 PM
                    OP, before you do anything rocker wise, you may call Mike at B3 racing engines and see what he thinks about putting bushings in the rockers you already have. Other than the needle bearings, there is nothing wrong with those. Press bronze bushings in them, score some new shafts, correct the geometry and don't look back.

                    That may be cheaper and better than starting over with new rockers. I'm pretty sure he has the tooling to do that. I used to, but that was all stolen by a common criminal and sold to a bunch of production rebuilders in Mexico (true story) who have no idea what all they bought.
                     
                  • 340Duster247

                    340Duster247 Well-Known Member

                    Messages:
                    805
                    Likes Received:
                    253
                    Joined:
                    Dec 5, 2012
                    Location:
                    Calgary
                    Local Time:
                    6:06 PM
                    That's a really good idea thanks. My local friend who builds lots of badass Mopars works with bullet cams alot. he's going to be talking to them about building me a custom grind for me.
                     
                  1. This site uses cookies to help personalize content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
                    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.