hope

[carfan]

Just thought I would see if any body has an easy answer to my problem. Just got the 225 started in my 61 lancer that's been siting for 25+ years haven't rechecked compression yet but starts in a hart beat and runs very well thats the good part, now for the bad smokes like a train out the tail pipe but no smoke out the draft tube and over heats inside of 2 miles but no bubbles in the radiator. changed the oil and filter had the radiator cleaned (dose need to be replaced if any one has one) I'm thinking cracked ring or piston but no blow by? Is there anyway trans fluid could be gitting in the intake, I know fords and GM had vacuum modulators that would leak some times but I don't think mopar did

Thanks for the input,
Larry

 

[Killer6]

I can't recall where i read it, but the first couple of years of slantys had a defective/poor
ring design package, causing them to practically siphon oil up into the cylinders.They were
recalled/replaced by '63/4 I believe. The question is, is that an orig. '61 mill,or has it been
rebuilt/replaced? The early date coding stamped on the pass. side block deck pad at the frt.
(behind the alt. mount) is easy to decipher up to '64. Search for the block ID threads back a
little, I've posted them before, but the year code is a letter up to & incl. '64.
A lean mixture, late ign. timing(incl. malfuctioning mech & vac. adv.), or a ton of scale build-
up in the water jackets are all starting points. What about the valve adjustment, and yes,do
a comp. test,better yet a leakdown test. The valve guides could be shot allowing oil and air
to get sucked into the intake ports, and no, Mopars do not have vacuum slipulators for the
trannys. I have tons more, but first I'd like to hear more history and particulars......
:coffee2:

 

[AJ/FormS]

You probably want to verify the overheat with an alternate temp tool;like an IR heatgun or a meat thermometer in the rad.

 

[nm9stheham]

The piston ring design was changed in '62 and yes, they supposedly did use excess oil but not to the degree of smoking. So just the rings' design is not it.

Main question on the smoke: Is it pure white? Or does in have any bluish tinge? The first is water and the 2nd is oil. A compression test would show the coolant leak; it may not show an oil problem, as the leaking oil helps seal the rings.

Correct on the 'no vacuum modulator' on the Mopar. So trans fluid not likely.

I would first suspect a sticking or broken ring but since you say no blow-by out of the draft tube, then that seems much less likely. Take off the oil filler/air vent on the vavle cover and look for blow by there.

For the overheating: The 'no bubbles in the rad' is not a foolproof test; it can be sucking coolant into the cylinders. So only a cooling pressure test will properly show a leak.

Remove the block drain plug at the lower right side, near to the oil filter and pump. See if anything comes out; be prepared as it should just gush out all over the place. If not, if it just dribbles or nothing comes out, put your finger up in the holes and you will feel some clay like crud in there. The bottom of the block is full of rust scale and broken down coolant and all sorts of crud. The only way to get that out is for a serious treatment, like a muriatic acid solution. Sitting like it has, the block and heads are likely terribly crudded up inside.

Also, be aware that the original head gasket is a thin shim steel one. There are passages between the head and block near the front and middle that the head gasket actually blocks, so that the coolant flow is forced through the block to the back, and then up into the head and back all the way to the front. It is normal for these old /6's to have the shim gaskets rusted out where they should be blocking the holes, and the flow will get messed up and things may get hot. (I have such a gasket pulled last year from an original '62 /6 that has these holes rusted out.) So, a head gasket is likely in your future. The newer ones are thicker and shaving the head is a good way to help the /6 torque and power, and helps make up for the thicker head gasket.

BTW, the old temp gauges tend to read hot, but not this hot and not in just 2 miles.

 

[Killer6]

You probably want to verify the overheat with an alternate temp tool;like an IR heatgun or a meat thermometer in the rad.

This is among the particulars,...how are you determining the overheating,etc.

The OP did not say anything about using/sucking coolant(yet),again particulars,and rings
that were unsuitable new when acceptable oil consumption was a lot higher than today's
standards, now 50+ yrs. old.......... again,particulars. May be a'78 tk eng. for all we know.

 

[66 coronet]

After sitting 25 years the valve seals are gone, that will cause the smoking. As for overheating I would look for a vacuum leak first.

 

[pishta]

The valve seals look like brown/black plastic caps on top of the valve guides. If they are not there, there is no stopping oil being sucked in on the intake side. I thought those rings were fixed 3 months after the taxi fleet trial? I have seen plenty of LA's that had the valve seals gone and end up in the pan as pea gravel. IF your head has no alternator mount stud by the water neck, its a very early head, like 60-61.

 

[carfan]

Thanks for all the input. I believe the engine to be a rebuilt one maybe a 63/64, I used a manifold vac gauge I know that reads low(till I find my good one) but it was rock solid steady and timing is still 5 degrees off, at TDC . It's defiantly over heating good old fashion boiling over I'll check the drain but I pulled the thermostat and flushed the system and it looked clean doesn't mean it's not built up in the bottom tho. It's defiantly oil smoke as much as there is I'm amazed that it runs. It idles smooth for a few minutes and as the plugs foul starts missing till you gas it and starts all over but it stay idling. The radiator is getting pinhole leaks from age but not enough to be an issue for testing things. I may just have to start looking for a good running engine.
Thanks all
Larry

 

[nm9stheham]

Yeah, a standard flush just won't cut getting 50+ year of crud out, 'specially when it has set for the lat 25 or so.

Since we can't see exactly how much smoke is coming out, then yes the stems seals can be an issue, but unless the guides area crazy worn, it usually is not enough to casue that fast a plug fouling. Have you actually looked at the plugs to see if it is oil fouled? (A wet, shiney black that does not smell like gas) How about pulling them and seeing if it is all of them or just certain ones?

I am now thinking sticking or broken rings if it as much smoke as you say. I would dribble half a can of Rislone sloooowly down the carb while keeping the car running, to see if it will free anything up, then put the rest in the cranckase for the same reason. It is a long shot but occasionally helps, and will certainly de-stick intake valves. And all the smoke is fun LOL

 

[carfan]

I did pull the drain plug and got some mud very little scale and a couple of pinon nuts from the cars last 4 legged residents and added some marvel mystery oil and it did help the smoke so I'll leave it in and put a few mile on it and see how much better it get. Heck it keeps the mosquito away! so now to deal with the over heating it's a little better too maybe I can go 5 miles! One thing cool was people pulling over and saying how cool the car was and that they had never seen or herd of one before
.

 

[nm9stheham]

Keep on flushing it... many times, and read up on a muratic acid flush. YOu have just started getting the mud and crud loosened up. As more and more mud and crud comes out, it will collect in the radiator core, so you might consider the trick of putting a screen in the top rad hose to catch some of it and clean it out very often until the crud is out. But you are gonna have to re-clean the rad some too if you do not do dedicated flush.

I remember the Lancer very well... it was the first car I ever drove. My uncle James taught me to drive in his '60 Lancer....I was at the ripe age of 8 years, seriously! I am not sure why he trusted me behind the wheel ... the car was less than 2 years old and I could barely see over the dash. LOL

 

[Killer6]

First ? I have is what did the coolant flow look like w/the 'stat out? With the cap off and
the level 1/2 an inch down even at idle it should be rollin' along pretty good. There is the poss
that the WP impeller blades have corroded away to be ineffective. You'd better have another
rad in the wings if you try acid in the car, if you're already springin' leaks......
Marvel mystery oil is great stuff, if the rings are stuck that mite work,but only if thats the
case. I hope for your sake thats all, a couple oil changes is easier than the alternatives!!
Mud at the base of the block won't cause overheat,but sludge/scale build-up adhered to the
surfaces of the whole system can make the cyl./head temps high, obviously the water is see-
ing enuff heat so... What do you mean 5deg "off", advanced,...retarded,....is someone revvin
the engine while you watch the timing? Is the advance mech&vacuum both working?Is vacuum
present at the dist when its revs are up? The carb port could be plugged....
I tried the same "free the rings" move on my GT Cpe., which the owner said he had "done"
the head. Well, once I had it running, it was smokin' like a steam locomotive hot revvin'.Me
thinks it was cooked, and they hoped it just needed a head gasket etc., but the rings are
toast. No tension left in 'em, and no kabookie dance'll bring 'em back.

nm9s......lol, I live in a relatively rural area(on purpose), but getting away with those
"moments" today is avoiding being imprisoned w/child endangerment charges..and anything
involving minors is auto. a state offense. I had tuned up my grandmothers Granada,13yrs
old,she let me drive part of the way back.Not as drastic as 8yrs.old, that's good stuff rite
there, and I had a bike and go-kart so she was prob. confident, but today...hope the popo
are friendly!!

 

[halifaxhops]

Keep on flushing it... many times, and read up on a muratic acid flush. YOu have just started getting the mud and crud loosened up. As more and more mud and crud comes out, it will collect in the radiator core, so you might consider the trick of putting a screen in the top rad hose to catch some of it and clean it out very often until the crud is out. But you are gonna have to re-clean the rad some too if you do not do dedicated flush.

I remember the Lancer very well... it was the first car I ever drove. My uncle James taught me to drive in his '60 Lancer....I was at the ripe age of 8 years, seriously! I am not sure why he trusted me behind the wheel ... the car was less than 2 years old and I could barely see over the dash. LOL

I did the muriatic acid thing when I had the / in one cup run it till warm then let it sit a while like a half hour then pull the hoses and flush the crap out of it. And the radiator also from the bottom if you can. Then put about a 1/4 box of baking soda in and reconnect the hoses and run it till hot to neutralize any acid left then flush the hell out of it with clean water. Might cause some more leaks in the rad though. It helped a lot for me.

 

[carfan]

The timing is sitting a TDC and I think it calls for 5 btdc but on this thing I need to pull the dis. to move the mounting plate to get the swing to adj it more and the inerfender clearance is so tight it's a pain in the ..... to put it back in so I've put it off till I have to. I pulled the plugs and there all oil covered and there is even oil dripping out of the tail pipe! I tried dripping a little Rislone down the carb and that made things worse so I'll see what happens in a couple of days What I don't understand it how come it starts so well and runs like a rabbit I have a 69 dart wss with 80,000 miles that I wish was half as fast. I think that the oil thing and the over heating are one in the same problem, even at idle the temp comes up right away to fast for the cooling sys. alone to be the problem. the impeller is a possibility but I hate to waste time and money when there is something more going on. (when I was flushing it and gave is some gas the water really shot out so maybe not on the water pump thing.)

 

[barbee6043]

I had some pics in puter showing some of the crud that can be on the rockers basically everything under and on the val ve coves, and crud in bottom of oil pan I s wear was 1 inch deep at least. ! but lost the pics!

people are really bad to run these old slants with crap paraffin based oil, NEVER change it, and run 2-300,000 on them like that. . slants just keep on running with more neglect than any engine!??????

your engine has NO valve seals for sure. after the engine gets hot, seems like that ailment sorta goes away, as things there get hot and expand some.

I have done the muratic acid flush, and it helped me, but be careful with that stuff, very caustic, and yes, it has to be neutralized with baking soda or it will keep on eating metal till....

 

[carfan]

Just for fun on the afternoon trip I had the rad. cap just more or less sitting on the rad. and when I got back and shut it off the cap literally blew off with mud ,pine nuts and mouse crap every where, that's one way to flush the block! when I get a new rad. I pull all the plugs and get the crap out, the mice most have been living in the block it's self.
I had the valve cover off and drained the oil, it was very clean in side and other than black the oil was pretty clean, this is a rebuilt motor at some point. the more I drive it it seams a little bit less smoke over all, but with more as it warms and the oil thins
There may be hope still.

 

[nm9stheham]

Just for fun on the afternoon trip I had the rad. cap just more or less sitting on the rad. and when I got back and shut it off the cap literally blew off with mud ,pine nuts and mouse crap every where, that's one way to flush the block! when I get a new rad. I pull all the plugs and get the crap out, the mice most have been living in the block it's self.
I had the valve cover off and drained the oil, it was very clean in side and other than black the oil was pretty clean, this is a rebuilt motor at some point. the more I drive it it seams a little bit less smoke over all, but with more as it warms and the oil thins
There may be hope still.

LOL that first paragraph is a riot......I can't stop giggling. Yeah, I guess that would explain it. Maybe you need nitric accid to dissolve all the old dead mice in there....(No, no, that was just a joke with the nitric acid!)

BTW, on the Rislone, you have to rev the engine and dribble in the stuff a bit at a time, and keep it revved with you hand on the throttle. It is just a product to help free up sticking valves and rings.

All you can do is clean and clean and see where it gets you. It may not work out. I did all the right things but the sludge in the crankcase was way out of control, and so decided to rebuild. The number 1 cylinder was worn quite a bit. Here is some REAL sludge:

 

[KosmicKuda]

There is a LOT of GOOD info in the above posts. I would say do a cylinder compression check and a pressure check on the cooling system. You can "rent" the appropriate equipment for free at one of the large auto chains. I use Autozone.

********

I have little to add because it's been covered pretty well but from personal experience...

My 64 225 was last registered in 1981. It went from just needing a carb rebuild (seller's words) to what it is now. Completely rebuilt. (But not quite running yet)

What I saw during the teardown was:
Head gasket was rusted out near #1 cylinder.
Cylinder #1 was kind of rusty but ironically was the only piston/rod assembly that was NOT locked solid. All other rods were frozen to the pins and wouldn't rotate.
The cooling passages and even hoses were very yucked up.
The oil holes in the rocker shaft were plugged solid with dried out sludge.
There was dried sludge under the valve cover but not quite as much as NM9's
There was one broken ring and the others were pretty much frozen in the lands.
The oil seals were mostly intact but hard as a rock.
The crank and rods were in great shape and did not need a regrind.

I'm taking tomorrow off work to put the hulk on a trailer so I can get it in my garage instead of 30 miles away.