72Valiant4Door
Trouble Maker
I drive newer mustangs and chargers everyday... absolutely nothing special.
Hotchkis or Bilstein shocks
- Thread starter tekslk
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72Duster440
Well-Known Member
A heck of a lot cheaper than any of the new cars out there. Look at the example given, his price is very low to get that amount performance out of an old muscle car.
67autocross
A new iron curtain drawn across the 49th parallel
While the new modern muscle cars may be nothing special it would take a very special old car to perform at the level that those car cable of right off the showroom floor. I really have a tough time thinking about how you could build something in the garage that would walk say a new 5.0 Track Pack Mustang. That’s just me.. maybe someone with more skill, money and time could.
Now back to the poster Cuda Racer who is just looking for a nice driving street car and not a world beating road race car I would highly recommend the Viking double adjustable shocks. You can set the suspension as soft as stock or as stiff as a 1 ton dump truck just by turning the dials, takes 2 minutes to completely change the feel of the car and if you are still fit enough to touch your toes you don’t even have to crawl under the car.
I called Viking directly with specs I wanted and then ordered them through PST, with the members discount it was less than the cost of buying them direct. Keep in mind if you custom order them like I did you can’t return them…. but if you are going stock length it this should not be any issue.
Now back to the poster Cuda Racer who is just looking for a nice driving street car and not a world beating road race car I would highly recommend the Viking double adjustable shocks. You can set the suspension as soft as stock or as stiff as a 1 ton dump truck just by turning the dials, takes 2 minutes to completely change the feel of the car and if you are still fit enough to touch your toes you don’t even have to crawl under the car.
I called Viking directly with specs I wanted and then ordered them through PST, with the members discount it was less than the cost of buying them direct. Keep in mind if you custom order them like I did you can’t return them…. but if you are going stock length it this should not be any issue.
72Valiant4Door
Trouble Maker
Do you not believe that it is possible to spend an equal amount of money and perform like a newer car???
Spend the same 40k on performance and not just brand and model premium that quickly depreciates.
You are buying branding, not just parts and engineering.
I have seen too much street racing to know that new isnt always better.
Your perspective is all that matters, until you race.
Spend the same 40k on performance and not just brand and model premium that quickly depreciates.
You are buying branding, not just parts and engineering.
I have seen too much street racing to know that new isnt always better.
Your perspective is all that matters, until you race.
What car won at Roadkill nights a few weeks ago? 4 fastest cars were a hellcat challenger, 2 70 challengers and a 67-69 dart. The hellcat came in 4th, the challengers 3rd and 2nd and the dart won it by a nose.
67autocross
A new iron curtain drawn across the 49th parallel
Is Roadkill Nights some kind of auto cross or road race? I assume it's put on by the guys at hot rod magazine.
It's a show and they had drag racing going on so those cars could only be compared to the hellcat in power and straight line speed so handling wouldn't be part of the equation
IMHO, the average driver won't be able to tell a real difference if he installs a brand name shock in his stock or mostly stock vehicle, as long as it's made for that application. if you get into lowering, rally crossing, and things like that, then maybe so. otherwise, for an everyday driver, go with a name brand and you'll be satisfied and spend a lot less. in overall handling improvement, shocks are the last thing you need to tune with. Shocks won't fix a handling problem unless everything else is spot on.
No. That's why you buy good shocks. The better the shocks, the better the range of dampening they provide. That's why when I switched from Bilstein's to Hotchkis Fox shocks (non-adjustable) the difference was immediately noticeable. The Fox's do a better job with their valving, which improves their ability at both extremes, around town and on the track. Their range of dampening is very good, so ride quality and suspension control aren't sacrificed too much on either end.
Very well put James. Thank you.
You don't need to keep changing the settings. One setting for around town, one for the track. Since you're obviously not spending any time on the track, you could soften the dampening rate for around town and forget about it. For that matter, I don't even have adjustable shocks, I'm using the Hotchkis Fox non-adjustables. They're more than up to the job of taming the 1.12's around town, no adjustment needed.
As James said, you're missing the point. You keep talking about overall handling and ride, but you haven't taken the steps with your car to actually improve either. And you're not listening to the people that HAVE taken the steps to improve both. You don't have to believe me, but since you haven't actually driven a properly set up car, maybe you could stop saying it can't be done. How would you know? You haven't done it.
Exactly. I have less than 15k into my entire car as it sits now. I already posted all of my suspension mods, which came in at $4k with my 13" brakes (remember I posted list prices above not what I actually paid). I only spent $2k to the purchase the entire car. Wheels and tires were expensive, that was another $2k. My engine, which is totally overkill, was about $6k but is a stock stroke 340 pushing over 400hp. So, as my car sits right now with everything that's 14k. With all the little stuff let's just call it 15k. I have another $5k spent on my T56 conversion, but that's not in the car yet. A base model V6 Mustang will set you back over $25k, my girlfriend's 2013 V6 Mustang Premium was about $27k. The lowest priced Shelby, a GT350, will set you back $55,595, and that's the base MSRP. I could build two cars for that price.
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cudaracer
Well-Known Member
blu,
you are certainly passionate about your classic mopars. I respect that completely. But the opinion I expressed, was just that. My opinion. Please don't suggest I can't have one, which you did. Also, don't make assumptions on what I have experienced. I based my opinion on many things, including the well known fact that today's cars are billet-like compared to the classics. That's called progress. And even after tons of steel reinforcement welded in place on any classic, it will never close that gap completely. Not even close. And although plenty can be done to improve the handling characteristics of most classics, it will still not come close to the latest pony cars that are designed as a SYSTEM, not a drop in improvement. Keyword there.
So my opinion stands, and justification by comparing costs of cars will not change that. I would buy a Shelby, for example, for many things, not just handling. The engine sound alone has intoxicated me. Collector value is another.
Thanks for your opinions, but agree to disagree.
you are certainly passionate about your classic mopars. I respect that completely. But the opinion I expressed, was just that. My opinion. Please don't suggest I can't have one, which you did. Also, don't make assumptions on what I have experienced. I based my opinion on many things, including the well known fact that today's cars are billet-like compared to the classics. That's called progress. And even after tons of steel reinforcement welded in place on any classic, it will never close that gap completely. Not even close. And although plenty can be done to improve the handling characteristics of most classics, it will still not come close to the latest pony cars that are designed as a SYSTEM, not a drop in improvement. Keyword there.
So my opinion stands, and justification by comparing costs of cars will not change that. I would buy a Shelby, for example, for many things, not just handling. The engine sound alone has intoxicated me. Collector value is another.
Thanks for your opinions, but agree to disagree.
And my point is, and has been from the beginning, that if you haven't ridden in a properly updated and tuned classic, you have no idea what the difference is. You can have an opinion if you like, but you don't have all of the facts to base that opinion on. You have no idea what the "gap" is, let alone if it can be closed or not.
As far as updating a classic goes, if you do it right it IS a system. You balance the wheel rates, suspension travel, shock dampening, roll couples, traction coefficients, all of it. Just like a new car. It is a system. If you just randomly bolt on parts, you might not get a collection of upgrades that works well together. But if you choose your parts based on their capabilities, design specs, and performance, then the result is a system that works well. Well enough for guys like Tomswheels to lay down faster times than Mustang GT's built in the last 10 years on the same autoX course, or the TireRack driver to best the lap times of a 3 series BMW. That's why Hotchkis sells a "system", not just a collection of parts.
So, yeah, we're going to disagree. But until your opinion is based on facts and first hand experiences, you're just misinformed.
cudaracer
Well-Known Member
blu,
and my counterpoint to you, is that you need to ride in a modern IRS pony car.
A solid axle last gen from several years ago is not even close.
and my counterpoint to you, is that you need to ride in a modern IRS pony car.
A solid axle last gen from several years ago is not even close.
Yes, I get it, a 2013 Mustang has a live axle. So does every other mustang other than the SVT Cobra's up until 2015. And the SVT cobra IRS wasn't all that great if you do the research on it, since it was designed to be a bolt-in system and didn't start from scratch and the result is chatter and wheelhop with anything other than solid bushings. But whatever.
My 2004 Dodge SRT4 was IRS, and the neon platform owned it's SCCA classes for years. They're very good handling cars. I replaced all the coilovers with Stage3 mopar pieces, ACR sway bars, etc and flogged the crap out of it for 40k miles. It has nothing on my Duster. And then you'll say it doesn't have traction control and was FWD. Well, I've ridden in modern Challengers, which have both IRS and traction control. So what? It IS close. And you can't understand that because you don't have the classic to compare it to. I have ridden in modern IRS cars. I started with the 2013 Mustang because I've actually driven it and pushed it, and that's a very different understanding than just going for a test drive or a ride.
The problem is you think IRS and traction control are some kind of magic. They aren't. Yes, traction control lets you get closer to the edge of the envelope, usually without even realizing it. But, what it DOESN'T do is move the envelope. Traction control doesn't create some magical extra physical reality where you get to exceed the laws of physics. It just takes your inputs and makes them more efficient in the translation to the wheels. It makes you a better driver, it doesn't change the physics of the suspension. When you hit the edge of the physics envelope, you still lose traction. All of the fancy new shocks that have magnetic ride control etc just make for a wider range of damping adjustment. Again, not magic. More comfortable, but not magic. And IRS itself, while theoretically better, is still subject to the limitations of it's design. Like that SVT Cobra IRS for example, that has hundreds of threads and complaints about wheel hop, chatter, etc, not to mention all kinds of aftermarket kits for correcting it. But it's always better?
Driving a new car vs an old car that's been properly tuned and upgraded is definitely a different experience. In a properly tuned classic the driver still has to do the work, still has to muscle the steering, still has to modulate the brakes, still has to modulate the throttle. In a BRAND new car (because apparently that's all the counts now, 2015 or newer) the computer takes care of all that. ABS modulates the brakes, the traction control modulates the throttle, and the electric assist helps take the muscle out of steering. But the bottom line is still the tires on the ground. Can traction control be better than a well trained driver? Yes. Is the suspension somehow inherently better than everything else? No. Remember, the new Ford GT supercar uses torsion bars. The new C7 corvette uses a transverse rear spring. Those are not new designs. Heck a transverse spring was a big deal for the Model A.
Less than two years ago you posted up asking if bigger torsion bars would stop your car from feeling like a "bucket of bolts". You got tons of responses, including quite a few from me, about how to proceed. And yet you don't appear to have taken any of them. But somehow in that time you've determined it's not possible to make your car handle as well as you want. Which simply isn't true. It won't feel like a new car if you do what you need to do, it will feel like a classic that can handle just as well as a new modern car, and the ride quality will not be significantly different. But it's a different experience.
Maybe what you're really trying to say is you want a modern car.
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MopaR&D
Nerd Member
After reading this thread all I want is a few grand to make my Duster out-handle the local imports. Some day....... 
On another note, any testimonials here on the adjustable Viking (or other brand) shocks? When I get a set of shocks I want them to be "for life" I don't want to have to swap them out every time I make a change to the springs or tires.
On another note, any testimonials here on the adjustable Viking (or other brand) shocks? When I get a set of shocks I want them to be "for life" I don't want to have to swap them out every time I make a change to the springs or tires.
cudaracer
Well-Known Member
Regarding my own e-body,
I just ordered 1" torsion bars from justsuspension and I am waiting for their arrival. I recently removed my KYB shocks and added Bilstein shocks. That seemed to take out a bit of harshness. All new bushings and joints throughout the front as well, already installed. When complete, a front end alignment is due. But none of that will change the fact that I cringe every time I experience a rough road surface, especially under braking or acceleration. The firmer torsion bars will only add back in more firmness, which I am fine with. But regardless of what I do to the suspension, these old cars are rattle traps, everywhere, not just the suspensions either. Can't be argued. And they are so far removed from the EcoBoost Mustang and GT that I recently drove, that I just can't imagine how adding more firmness to the suspension will improve all that. And you are right, I have not experienced what it could feel like. But I never will either, because I don't want to transform my classic. I only want to improve it. And so far, improvements have done next to nothing.
Classic cars are "rattle traps" because they don't have the same level of sound deadening as new cars. At this point, 40+ years later, all of the body/window gaskets and seals need to be changed. Nothing is different about the construction of new cars. They're unibody's just like old mopars. Sure, they've been optimized and engineered and crash tested etc and are more efficient at what they do. But they also have more sound deadening and brand new seals/gaskets/bushings. Nothing magic, nothing fancy. If you bothered to add sound deadening to your car, replace all the window rubber, adjust your door and window mechanisms etc you would find the difference is small at best. Once again, Ive done this. My Challenger was absolutely a rattle trap. It had rust, it had crappy seals, all of it. My Duster was never as bad, because it was a solid low mileage car to begin with. After I added a layer of FatMat to the floor and roof the difference was amazing. After I added frame connectors and torque boxes, no more rattles. So I'm following suit with my Challenger, replacing the rusted floors, adding frame connectors and torque boxes, and a layer of FatMat to the cabin. I have no doubt that the result will be similar to my Duster. And once again, I will happily put my Duster against the 2013 Mustang we had in comparison for being a "rattle trap". It's louder because my mufflers are louder, but honestly, it has LESS squeaks and rattles because that 2013 mustang ALWAYS had a lower control arm squeak, even after 3 complete lower control arm replacements by the dealer. Don't even get me started on the wind noise in my '04 SRT4, it was horrible straight off the showroom floor because Neon's had cheap window seals. You just don't know what's possible because you haven't tried it. And how can you know it can't even be argued if you haven't bothered to try? You have no clue what you're talking about.
As far as your car goes, many members, including myself, explained that some of what you were describing about your car was not normal, not even for an old Mopar. Indicating that you may in fact have damage or problems with your suspension. And you got a lot of suggestions on what to look for. You're right, 1" torsion bars aren't going to help your cause at all if the LCA pivots have broken loose from the K frame, or if the LCA bushings are torn because they weren't tightened at ride height. But I've never seen anything that suggested you bothered to check any of that. You also never bothered to say what the alignment was on the car, and if you had it aligned at a big name shop I can guarantee that they used the factory settings, which are completely wrong for radial tires. The factory specs in the computer of every major alignment shop are for bias ply's. You also mentioned you put "oversized" 245's on your rims. If they're too wide for your rims you've introduced a number of handling problems. Most of what you described sounds like a miserable factory spec alignment, but again, you never mentioned what your alignment was, or apparently corrected it. Have it set to -.5* camber, +3* caster or as much as you can get since you've got a power steering car, and 1/16" to 1/8" toe in. I'd be willing to bet you have positive camber and negative caster right now for bias plys, and that will handle like crap. So do oversized tires on 14" rims. The problem with your car isn't that it's old, it's that you haven't set it up properly and haven't bothered to follow through with the troubleshooting that has to be done to correct the issues it's having.
If you want to believe your car is hopeless and there's nothing that can be done, fine by me. If you don't want to take the steps necessary to bring your car up to it's optimum handling level, that's fine too. Lots of people leave their classics "classic". But understand that means it won't handle as well. And also understand that it doesn't prove that classics can't be brought up to modern standards. Just because you haven't bothered to try and aren't willing to doesn't mean it can't be done. It can, and it has. Just not by you.
Any car can be built to perform a task requested. It's all how much you want to spend. As for shocks, don't cheap out. Take a ride in an offroad truck/buggy with different shock levels, the difference is amazing. I went with the Hotchkis/Fox for the current stock t-bar setup, along with their F&R swaybars, and transformed the car. Have enjoyed it, but now its time to move up to a new performance level and change the setup.
cudaracer
Well-Known Member
Good points.
regarding the improvements often coined as 'amazing', it really comes down to before and after. Was before the softest setup perhaps minus any sway bars? Then yes, one can expect amazing changes. But
Take my car out of the equation for a minute, and apply what I said once again.
I have driven in many, many classic cars, some of which were very well modified. And they all have one thing in common. Rattle traps. We are talking 2nd, 3rd and if possible 4th order vibrations in every irregular road surface.
Fact
72Valiant4Door
Trouble Maker
I just like that you use the word rattletrap as a measure of quality. When I got my stock *** 45 yr old car home I never once had a single issue with rattle and this is on a car with a shot front end needing bushings replaced.
If you have a problem with rattles then find the issue and Loctite that son-of-a-b**** down
If you have a problem with rattles then find the issue and Loctite that son-of-a-b**** down
You want rattle trap? Drive a 94-04 mustang. EVERYTHING in those cars rattle it seems!! Really, I've been told by a guy who's ridden in/driven old and newer mustangs and they all have issues with noisy interiors and feeling "cheap" maybe not the new ones but that was from 64-04 at least
72Valiant4Door
Trouble Maker
For real though those years of mustangs are trash for harshness. And i have driven 50+.
The newer styled ones are not as bad, but still not a comfort focused ride.
Commando66
She's a beaut Clark!
Installed my Bilsteins and a Firm Feel 1 1/8" swaybar on my 66 Valiant wagon today. Fairly noticeable difference over the KYB's and stock swaybar.
For the absolute last time, just because you can't (or won't) do it doesn't mean it can't be done.
The only "fact" you've established is that you have driven a bunch of rattle traps. That's doesn't mean all classics are rattle traps, or that all classics have to be. My Duster isn't a rattle trap. My Challenger won't be when I'm finished with the floors and subframe connectors. Not sure what's wrong with yours, or the others you've driven, but they don't have to be that way.
Exactly. It's called fixing what's wrong. If it rattles, something is wrong and it needs to be fixed. Pretty simple. If it were easy everyone would do it.
Exactly, mine either. Enough said.
cudaracer
Well-Known Member
Regarding the rattle traps of Fox Body Mustangs and that same era Camaro, yeah, they were bad. Even when fairly new and especially if you had a convertible or T-top.
But that was many generations ago, back before Detroit put so much engineering effort into them like they do today. Today's Mustang and Camaro and even Challenger, offer up a significant improvement over that era, let alone 60's muscle. A very, very significant improvement. And that's just in base trim models. Performance models take it that much further yet, through additional stiffening, lightweighting, tuning, etc.
Blu, we will forever disagree on this matter, but what I know as a systems engineer, is that to best tune a system to perfection (or close to it), you have to consider the whole system as you do it. No drop in system can do that.
But that was many generations ago, back before Detroit put so much engineering effort into them like they do today. Today's Mustang and Camaro and even Challenger, offer up a significant improvement over that era, let alone 60's muscle. A very, very significant improvement. And that's just in base trim models. Performance models take it that much further yet, through additional stiffening, lightweighting, tuning, etc.
Blu, we will forever disagree on this matter, but what I know as a systems engineer, is that to best tune a system to perfection (or close to it), you have to consider the whole system as you do it. No drop in system can do that.
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