Hotchkis or Bilstein shocks

Which shocks for a street car?

  • Hotchkis

    Votes: 19 28.4%
  • Bilstein

    Votes: 48 71.6%

  • Total voters
    67
  • Poll closed .
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Regarding the rattle traps of Fox Body Mustangs and that same era Camaro, yeah, they were bad. Even when fairly new and especially if you had a convertible or T-top.

But that was many generations ago, back before Detroit put so much engineering effort into them like they do today. Today's Mustang and Camaro and even Challenger, offer up a significant improvement over that era, let alone 60's muscle. A very, very significant improvement. And that's just in base trim models. Performance models take it that much further yet, through additional stiffening, lightweighting, tuning, etc.

Blu, we will forever disagree on this matter, but what I know as a systems engineer, is that to best tune a system to perfection (or close to it), you have to consider the whole system as you do it. No drop in system can do that.

And 200,000 miles from now those brand new cars will be rattle traps too, and they will need parts replaced and upgraded. A systems engineer should know that. Heck all the of the 2011-2014 Mustang LCA's are still under a TSB for constant squeaking and bushing failure. That's pretty much the modern era yes? New designs don't always mean better designs.

The biggest hurdle to overcome isn't usually the design of the classics, it's the age and wear and tear. But that can be dealt with if you're willing to do the work. New design methods are more efficient, but they don't always yield a better product. Innovation in aerospace dropped 50% with the introduction of CAD systems in the eighties. Even engineers have a hard time understanding that just because their computer program can't do it doesn't necessarily mean it can't be done. It just means the software wasn't programmed to do it, because the guy programming it didn't have the required imagination and/or knowledge. We sent men to the moon with less computing power than a modern graphing calculator, let alone a smart phone. Those engineers knew how to DO things, not just optimize a model on a computer that may not be programmed with the proper assumptions. The fact of the matter is that all of the suspension systems currently in use, even in brand new cars, were invented at least decades ago. Sure, the individual designs are newer, but there's nothing new about IRS, or coilovers, or anything else out there today. Jag's got IRS in 1961. Heck Firestone marketed a practical air ride suspension in 1933. None of this is new.

You won't hear much argument from me on the drop in systems, that's why for the most part I don't suggest them. Slapping coilovers on a chassis designed for torsion bars causes as many problems as it solves, and those issues have to be addressed. Upgrading the stock design works within the original system, and optimizes it to work with modern tires and compounds. Again, a systems engineer should understand that. Installing tires with better compounds completely changes how the entire suspension system behaves. You must make more changes to it in order to keep it functioning as intended, and even BFG T/A's are an upgrade from the tires the suspension was intended to work with. Meaning, unless you're running bias ply's you need to upgrade your suspension to get it to work properly.

You can disagree all you want, but the car sitting in my driveway right now disproves most of your claims outright. And as a former aerospace engineer, your systems engineering title doesn't impress me unless you can back it up with knowledge and ability. I knew plenty of engineers that couldn't build something with their hands to save their lives. Sure they were great on the computer, but hand them a chunk of metal and send them to the machine shop to actually make what they just designed and you were in deep crap. The computer model isn't out on the road, the chunk of metal is.
 
Mileage matters, sure. 200K is plenty for any car, but not really. I have a Grand Prix with 184K miles of rough use, and no rattles. None. Suspension feels tired, but no rattles.
I received my cuda from the original family member who purchased it with 82K miles. He literally used to rub it's paint with a diaper and loved telling everyone he did. This car was babied and garaged and has all original sheet metal and only a little lead in rear quarter from Michigan winters and only 1 paint job back in early 80's. Interior does have new carpet and drivers seat, which got worn, but I seriously doubt you can find an e-body survivor like this that was babied as much -- and yet even after all that and combined with my suspension updates and new radial tires....still a rattle trap. I'm sorry that bothers you, but it's a fact. I wish it were not. And I am OK with that. But I have also thought long and hard about how to go forward with improving it incrementally, which I will continue to do, all while realizing that nothing I can do it will ever make it as superior as today's pony cars. That's my original statement, and I' sticking to it.
 
So I got my cuda back from the alignment shop after putting 1.00"" torsion bars on it and Bilstein shocks, and here is my opinion of the new setup.

I had the torsion bars put on after wrenching my back while putting on my shocks, and was not up to the task. Took it to our local 'mopar master' who installed them prior to the alignment. He noticed I had a bad lower ball joint. It was only a few years old with very few miles, and Moog covered it. Not sure how it went bad. I did install it, but I don't recall anything awkward about it going it. Good thing he noticed, as I did not want to re-align after catching it later. He replaced joint, added 1.00" bars and set my alignment to the following specs:
Camber -0.5 deg
Caster + 2.5-3.0 deg
Toe In 1/8"

Front end is completely rebuilt now matching new springs in back. Ride height with rally wheels (14" with 70 series tires) set to about 24.75" at front fender edge (back is about a 1/2" higher) which was about where I had it previously. He really had to back off the torsion bar bolt however, obviously, as previous bar was 0.92".

I have already logged about 100 miles on it, and my impressions with everything complete are that it was not as firm as I expected it to be. The Bilstein shocks made a big initial difference by taking away the harsh KYB feel. The new bars added back some firmness, but no harshness. The car stays pretty flat when lane changing but the tires moan on an on ramp, with factory sway bars (F/R) untouched other than new bushings. My cuda tracks nicely. It was pretty close before however. I can now also brake hard on a bad road and the feeling of falling apart is gone. Bad LBJ appears to have contributed to rattles and noise in the past that I complained about, compounded by KYB shocks. Everything came together nicely, and I am happy with my setup. I will however not spend one more dime on the suspension to improve it, other than new wheels and tires in the future. I may have improved the handling a skosh, but the firmer suspension also slightly magnified some rattles and discovered a few new throughout the car. Living around Metro Detroit, there is no shortage of bad roads, especially with all the truck traffic and harsh winters. So I love my classic mopar, and I am happy with the choices I made to make the improvements, however subtle, but at the end of the day, I recognize what it is and I am good with it.

Next upgrade: Solve my fuel evaporation issue with my eddie carb.

So thanks to anyone who contributed with advice.
 
Ok, a few more days driving the cuda and I have uncovered a plethora of new rattles.
I am now regretting getting the bigger torsion bars. I should have just gone with a thicker sway bar.

Word to the wise.
 
Ok, a few more days driving the cuda and I have uncovered a plethora of new rattles.
I am now regretting getting the bigger torsion bars. I should have just gone with a thicker sway bar.

Word to the wise.

You ought to figure out where the rattles are coming from. Doesn't make a whole lot of sense to blame the springs if you have loose window regulators, loose trim inside the car, worn door latch linkage, etc etc.

On that note we are talking about an E-body correct? I have heard that the build quality on those cars was pretty bad compared to the other platforms which had been around longer and still were far from great.

And one more thing, if you really want to stiffen up the chassis put in some weld-in subframe connectors. That will eliminate a huge amount of body flex thus reducing rattles/squeaks from stuff moving around, and improve ride and handling.
 
Ok, a few more days driving the cuda and I have uncovered a plethora of new rattles.
I am now regretting getting the bigger torsion bars. I should have just gone with a thicker sway bar.

Word to the wise.

I like your thinking and honesty. For me personally, (others needs / wants will vary) have never been a fan of the big torsion bar. Anything over the .890 makes me feel every expansion joint in these NW Ohio roads which BTW are like a pool table compared to the lower Michigan / Detroit area. I just want a good ride and came on here to get the skinny on shocks.

Here is what I see is the short version....
was thinking KYB's.....but not seeing any love for them
Bilsteins great...but pricey
Fox better yet....but bigger pricey

any good middle of the road / street cruiser shocks available...a few notches above the Blue Monroes?
 
I like your thinking and honesty. For me personally, (others needs / wants will vary) have never been a fan of the big torsion bar. Anything over the .890 makes me feel every expansion joint in these NW Ohio roads which BTW are like a pool table compared to the lower Michigan / Detroit area. I just want a good ride and came on here to get the skinny on shocks.

Here is what I see is the short version....
was thinking KYB's.....but not seeing any love for them
Bilsteins great...but pricey
Fox better yet....but bigger pricey

any good middle of the road / street cruiser shocks available...a few notches above the Blue Monroes?


I had the kyb gas a just shocks before i upgraded to the hotchkiss shocks and they worked fine.
 
I like your thinking and honesty. For me personally, (others needs / wants will vary) have never been a fan of the big torsion bar. Anything over the .890 makes me feel every expansion joint in these NW Ohio roads which BTW are like a pool table compared to the lower Michigan / Detroit area. I just want a good ride and came on here to get the skinny on shocks.

Here is what I see is the short version....
was thinking KYB's.....but not seeing any love for them
Bilsteins great...but pricey
Fox better yet....but bigger pricey

any good middle of the road / street cruiser shocks available...a few notches above the Blue Monroes?

I've put well over a 100k street miles on 1.12" torsion bars between my Challenger and my Duster. And the 1.12's on the Duster work out to a higher wheel rate (300 lb/in).

I said it in this thread years ago, I will say it again. My Duster with 1.12" torsion bars doesn't have any harsher of a ride than a modern muscle car with its suspension in "sport" mode. I've driven both. And my Duster with it's 1.12" bars, Hotchkis shocks and 18" rims is STILL my daily driver 4 years since I last posted in this thread. If you have an issue with torsion bars over .89", all I can say is either your expectations of how an old muscle car should ride are clouding your judgement, or your car is not set up properly for the larger bars.

KYB's are trash. They are especially trash on any torsion bars larger than 1". They're just not designed for those kind of wheel rates. I ran them on my Challenger with 1.12" bars, I upgraded to Bilsteins, and with that single change the ride quality of the car was improved. Like, night and day improved. KYB's are trash for larger torsion bars.

Bilstein RCD's are good shocks for large torsion bars. They probably do best with bars from about 1" up to about 1.06"

Hotchkis Fox shocks handle the 1.12" bars better than Bilsteins do. It's a subtle difference, but it is a noticeable difference. I ran the RCD's on my Duster before upgrading to the Hotchkiss shocks. I wouldn't hesitate to run RCD's on bars 1.06" or smaller, but for anything larger than 1.06" the Hotchkiss shocks are the way to go.
 
I've put well over a 100k street miles on 1.12" torsion bars between my Challenger and my Duster. And the 1.12's on the Duster work out to a higher wheel rate (300 lb/in).

I said it in this thread years ago, I will say it again. My Duster with 1.12" torsion bars doesn't have any harsher of a ride than a modern muscle car with its suspension in "sport" mode. I've driven both. And my Duster with it's 1.12" bars, Hotchkis shocks and 18" rims is STILL my daily driver 4 years since I last posted in this thread. If you have an issue with torsion bars over .89", all I can say is either your expectations of how an old muscle car should ride are clouding your judgement, or your car is not set up properly for the larger bars.

KYB's are trash. They are especially trash on any torsion bars larger than 1". They're just not designed for those kind of wheel rates. I ran them on my Challenger with 1.12" bars, I upgraded to Bilsteins, and with that single change the ride quality of the car was improved. Like, night and day improved. KYB's are trash for larger torsion bars.

Bilstein RCD's are good shocks for large torsion bars. They probably do best with bars from about 1" up to about 1.06"

Hotchkis Fox shocks handle the 1.12" bars better than Bilsteins do. It's a subtle difference, but it is a noticeable difference. I ran the RCD's on my Duster before upgrading to the Hotchkiss shocks. I wouldn't hesitate to run RCD's on bars 1.06" or smaller, but for anything larger than 1.06" the Hotchkiss shocks are the way to go.

i noticed a big difference going to the hotchkiss shocks, although kybs for someone on a budget are fine
 
i noticed a big difference going to the hotchkiss shocks, although kybs for someone on a budget are fine

You couldn't pay me to put KYB's back on one of my cars. I'd run parts store Monroe's before I ran KYB's.
 
You couldn't pay me to put KYB's back on one of my cars. I'd run parts store Monroe's before I ran KYB's.

really, i didnt have a issue at all when i ran the kybs, the ride was decent too, cant remember which torsion bars im running though
 
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