Hydr lifters, adjustable roller rocker arms, had some noise, tried to adjust preload did i mess up?

[JjyKs]

Writing this on a phone so pardon me for any typos So i had some lifter noise. Thought that I would just have to readjust my rocker arms and it woild get fixed. Asked the old owner and he told me that car has this camshaft: COMP Cams CL20-228-4 COMP Cams Xtreme Energy Hi-Lift Cam and Lifter Kits | Summit Racing

Long story short, decided to try and adjust the preload, followed the comp cams instructions (rotate the engine, adjust intake just when exhaust valve starts moving and adjust exhaust when intake is just over the maximum lift. Adjustment was tightening it until there wasn't any vertical play on the pushrod and then a full extra turn for preload.

Started the car up and the noise just got a lot louder. Waited a bit (max 1 minute, hard to estimate) because I thought that there might've been pressure loss during the adjustment and the lifters would just have to fill again.

Only strange thing in the valvetrain was that some of the lifters were very soft and some of them felt completely solid when adjusting. Soft ones were compressable with hand pushing on top of the rocker arm (almost 1cm), while the hard ones didn't compress at all. Also it was possible to get thst compression away with the rocker arm adjustment, however I just took the free vertical lash off, because I read that they should be compressable to some extent. The hard ones didn't decompress at all when loosened.


So, is there possibility that I caused some damage (valves hitting pistons or something else?) When i loosened the adjustment on pressurized lifters? Should they keep the pressure or be rock solid like some of them were? Should I just buy a complete new set of lifters and install it before diagnosing it further?

 

[Dana67Dart]

Loosening (opening up) the lash would at worst keep the valves from opening. Itight beatup you cam rockers snd pushrods but i doubt that is the case.

There are many procedures for setting lash to be sure you are on the correct location of the cam lobe on the correct cylinder and correct intake vs exhaust

Many have posted a procedure here. The Factory Service Manual has a procedure for solid lifters, use the 67 FSM.

You have hydrolic lifters, typically hydrolics do not have adjustable rockers.

The procedure for adjusting the solids vs the hydrolics will be the same EXCEPT the lash measurement for solids will be VERY diferent from hydrolics.

When Crane says tighten till no vertical movement of the pushrod plus 1 turn they are centering the piston inside the hydrolic lifter.

So you could use the procedure for solid lifters to the point of the adjustment of the lash, then instead of a lash measurement you tighten the adjuster till the pushrod just has no vertical movement plus 1 turn.


As for pushrods being able to be compressed, i cant say for sure. The lifters location in its bore might not be letting oil out so it would feel hard????

Or you might have frozen or damaged lifters?

No way to know remotely.

Good luck hope this helps.

(I am sure others will chime in on their prefered methods)

 

[Syleng1]

I know personally I’ve had trouble with hydraulic lifters and adjustable rockers.
I only know of one guy who adjust them by feel. He said some lifters being hydraulic bleed down slower or faster than others. Same set of 16 and all respond differently. Personally I stopped using that combo and run adjustable with mechanical lifters only- again way too much work for such little gain.

 

[Bewy]

Soft lifters when adjusting could be from adjusting procedure...soft lifter could have bled down while adjusting other lifters. The best way to check to see if it is a lifter problem is run the engine [ idling ] with the valve covers off. Gently hold each moving rocker arm while listening/feeling for noise/clearance.

Some people have reported lifter noise with Xtreme energy cams. Stiff springs, thin oil & high-er ratio rockers will worsen the problem.

 

[RustyRatRod]

Yup. Could be entirely normal. Those XE cams have some pretty fast lobes and that beats on the valve train and makes noise. That's why for a street car, I never, ever recommend a fast rate cam. All else being equal, you're not going to see a 20HP difference between a fast lift and good old fashioned slow ramp cam. But you'll sure as hell save a lot of wear and tear on the valve train and make less noise with an old school grind.

"ALL THAT" said, I never use that valve adjustment method. Never have and never will. I adjust them one at a time, right down the line. Get each one closed all the way on the base circle of the cam and adjust it. Then move to the next. Takes a little longer, but it works for ME.

 

[PRH]

The first step in the preload setting procedure, for which ever valve you’re working on, is to back the adjuster off far enough to allow the lifter plunger to completely top out against the retaining clip........ plus a little more so there is definite vertical free play between the rocker/pushrod/lifter.
Then, before taking out the free play, make sure the pushrod is properly seated in the pushrod cup of the lifter.
Since on a SBM the lifters are somewhat “laying on their side”, it’s not hard to end up with the pushrod sitting on the top edge of the pushrod cup, instead of down in the cup.

Turn the adjuster screw in while jiggling the pushrod vertically until you notice you have “just” eliminated all the free play.
Then you add in the lifter preload(1/2 turn, etc).

After doing this, some lifters will be “soft”, some will be “hard”.
That’s normal.

The Comp 20-228-4 is one of the XE/HL series of cams.
It’s unlikely you will ever get the valvetrain to be truly “quiet” with that cam.
Take your time on the lifter preload adjustment so you’re confident in the setting........ then the noise situation just is what it is.

 

[MOPAROFFICIAL]

The first step in the preload setting procedure, for which ever valve you’re working on, is to back the adjuster off far enough to allow the lifter plunger to completely top out against the retaining clip........ plus a little more so there is definite vertical free play between the rocker/pushrod/lifter.
Then, before taking out the free play, make sure the pushrod is properly seated in the pushrod cup of the lifter.
Since on a SBM the lifters are somewhat “laying on their side”, it’s not hard to end up with the pushrod sitting on the top edge of the pushrod cup, instead of down in the cup.

Turn the adjuster screw in while jiggling the pushrod vertically until you notice you have “just” eliminated all the free play.
Then you add in the lifter preload(1/2 turn, etc).

After doing this, some lifters will be “soft”, some will be “hard”.
That’s normal.

The Comp 20-228-4 is one of the XE/HL series of cams.
It’s unlikely you will ever get the valvetrain to be truly “quiet” with that cam.
Take your time on the lifter preload adjustment so you’re confident in the setting........ then the noise situation just is what it is.

Happened to me before, I agree.

 

[JjyKs]

Thanks guys, I'll try to readjust them one more time. I actually found crane cams documentation and they said that if it's used lifter then you should let it decompress for a while (1-2mins) after loosening the adjustment. I just loosened the adjustment until I had some slack between the rocker arm and pushrod and instantly tightened it to a point of no lash + 1 turn. However if the noise doesn't at least get a little better I'll purchase new lifters just to be sure. I've had this car for a year and it didn't sound this bad ever before my adjustment, so at least something is different/wrong.

However I'm starting to think that it might just be bad lifter(s) and them getting worse after trying to adjust them. That's because I'm 100% sure that the lifter noise got gradually worse over the last month before I opened it up.

 

[toolmanmike]

Showing our age, and southern heritage. I'll never apologize for either, despite current opinion. A tip of my hat to you, Sir.

Me and you both, buddy.

You guys are pathetic. A guy starts a thread asking for help and you hop in and derail it by getting into a discussion about old rock music. Have some respect for the OP and think before you post.

 

[furrystump]

Buying new lifters probably won’t do anything for you but introduce real risk of serious damage. You will have to break in the new lifters to tge old cam. You would have had to seriously misadjust them to really hurt something in a short period of time and it would be obvious. Follow PRH’s advice on adjusting them. If you do, you can have confidence it is correct and the noise is what it will be. I have been down this road. When I had a hydr I did it like 6 times. I was looking for a more “precise” way. I was never happy, it always sounded like a sewing machine. Finally set it and I didn’t care what it sounded like, because it was correct. Went solid after a bit and will never put a hydr cam in anything.

 

[K.O. SWINGER]

What I can say is I bent more than one push rod getting my hydraulic lifter roller rocker set up right ,you have been told the way to set it up but roll it over quite a few times checking all pushrod placement. And then check it again my setup has been in for about 2 years trouble-free.

 

[dart_68]

I've been following this thread, very good info...as always from y'all,. I've read that stock cams are designed so that they reduce lifter noise as much as possible. Performance cams designers couldn't care less so those cams are naturally noisier.

My question for the op - is it overall noise you're hearing or an actual lifter tick from maybe a bad lifter or out of adjusted rocker?

 

[RustyRatRod]

You guys are pathetic. A guy starts a thread asking for help and you hop in and derail it by getting into a discussion about old rock music. Have some respect for the OP and think before you post.

Gosh. I didn't mean to be pathetic. I just got lost in conversation. Skyooze the **** outta me for bein human, Mike.

 

[PRH]

One other thought.......

If the motor had been revved to the point where there was noticeable valvetrain instability, and the pushrods were dancing around a little......... I’ve seen it where the bottom of the pushrod will “step on” the plunger retaining clip and dislodge and/or deform it.
I’ve seen it happen several times with fast rate cams and lifters that are simply unable to keep up.

Looking down past the head into the valley(easier on some heads than others), careful inspection of the tops of the lifters should reveal if that situation is an issue or not.

 

[JjyKs]

I've been following this thread, very good info...as always from y'all,. I've read that stock cams are designed so that they reduce lifter noise as much as possible. Performance cams designers couldn't care less so those cams are naturally noisier.

My question for the op - is it overall noise you're hearing or an actual lifter tick from maybe a bad lifter or out of adjusted rocker?

Well I'm not an expert on engine noises but so far all of the strange noises that I've had on this engine are:

First startup after last winter: Really excess knocking. At first it felt that every lifter was knocking, started to slow down (lifters starting to work) after running for minute or two and after ~5 minutes I only had a sound that I'd describe as "dragging" as in rolling small toy car with metal wheels on hard surface. (Sorry, not a native english speaker so finding words to describe sounds is kinda hard ). However the car always had that sound and I'm quite sure that it was just normal mechanical noise.

~ month ago: Started to notice ticking noise on top of that "dragging" noise, eventually it started to get louder.

Couple days ago: Tried to adjust the preload/inspect the valve train: both noises got a lot louder. Now the dragging sound sounds more like grinding and the ticking turned from "sound of studded tires on concrete" into "somebody smashing something metallic with small hammer".

One other thought.......

If the motor had been revved to the point where there was noticeable valvetrain instability, and the pushrods were dancing around a little......... I’ve seen it where the bottom of the pushrod will “step on” the plunger retaining clip and dislodge and/or deform it.
I’ve seen it happen several times with fast rate cams and lifters that are simply unable to keep up.

Looking down past the head into the valley(easier on some heads than others), careful inspection of the tops of the lifters should reveal if that situation is an issue or not.

This is something that I will do next time I get back to my garage! I'll also run the car without valve covers and try to find the source of the sound..

 

[AJ/FormS]

The lifters are sitting right in the main oil galleries, and so are seeing whatever oil pressure and volume that your pump can put out. When the oil is cold, that could be up to say 70psi. If the lifters are working right, they should stop clattering within seconds of start-up.
Furthermore, once adjusted correctly to say ONE turn, it should run relatively quiet for thousands and thousands of miles; I mean that is the whole point of running hydraulics.
When the lifters all get noisy, over a short period of time IMO, there is something nasty going on, and the noises you describe, also IMO, should NOT be.
I can understand one or two lifters having lost their initial preload over a year or say 8,000 miles. But not all of them. I adjusted mine to 1/4 turn on day one of the cam install, but inside a week I had a tick So I went back in and set it to 1/2 turn. It went on that adjustment for several years. Then over the next ten years, one by one they started ticking. I think there are maybe 8 or more tickers now, just enough to notice; but I just leave them alone.
IMO you got too much and too many, noises. I think I'd be wanting a closer look.

 

[Scody21]

4 words.

Shitty timing chains, stretch....

You know what was ratteling like an SOB after about 15 hours of run time of my 340? The valves. I’m running the Comp magnum adjustable roller tip rockers, comp lifters and the Comp XL285HL / 20-228-4 in a 10.2/1, 2.02 J-head, eddy airgap, 750 holly DP, 4 speed w/ Gear Vendor, 3.91 sure grip and 25inch tires. I changed the gear to 3.23’s and went and did some figure 8’s for the brake-in. Then I i sent it down the street like a mad man. Got home and parked it. The next morning durring warm up I had awful valve train noise. Adjusted the valves, twice, talked to YR and checked the valves again. Said F this, rebuilt my 3.91’s, put them back in the car and drove it till last fall. Parked it last winter / spring. A few months back i put a new Pro Gear chain and tenchioner in. You know what I’ve not done since I adjusted the valves over a year ago and put the new chain in? Adjusted the valves. I checked them with a feeler, but that’s it. The amount of 5k clutch drops, banging the rev limiter I’ve done the last 3 days is more than you can count on 2 hands, 2 feet, and I’m going to do it again tomorrow morning just to wake up all the neighbors. LoL. You know what’s not ratteling, the valve train. Long story short. Cloyes Timing Chains.... wait for it....


SUCK MAJOR DONKY D**K..

Also, i feel that the 20-228-4 cam is not a good fit for a 4 speed car, as you have to get up on the pipe, (yeah 2 stroke bikes) aka 3000 rpms for the cam to be happy rowing the gears and is all done at 6k. I will say that it’s not bad if you stuff the gas peddle to the floor, not lifting, and bang the gears. But for a auto cross, corner carver, it’s not what you want. Now, if i had a slush box, (read 904/727) and a 3k stall, it’s be a beast...

PS, saw @yellowrose the last few days, he says hi to all everyone, even to the haters with a middle finger.

 

[RustyRatRod]

4 words.

Shitty timing chains, stretch....

You know what was ratteling like an SOB after about 15 hours of run time of my 340? The valves. I’m running the Comp magnum adjustable roller tip rockers, comp lifters and the Comp XL285HL / 20-228-4 in a 10.2/1, 2.02 J-head, eddy airgap, 750 holly DP, 4 speed w/ Gear Vendor, 3.91 sure grip and 25inch tires. I changed the gear to 3.23’s and went and did some figure 8’s for the brake-in. Then I i sent it down the street like a mad man. Got home and parked it. The next morning durring warm up I had awful valve train noise. Adjusted the valves, twice, talked to YR and checked the valves again. Said F this, rebuilt my 3.91’s, put them back in the car and drove it till last fall. Parked it last winter / spring. A few months back i put a new Pro Gear chain and tenchioner in. You know what I’ve not done since I adjusted the valves over a year ago and put the new chain in? Adjusted the valves. I checked them with a feeler, but that’s it. The amount of 5k clutch drops, banging the rev limiter I’ve done the last 3 days is more than you can count on 2 hands, 2 feet, and I’m going to do it again tomorrow morning just to wake up all the neighbors. LoL. You know what’s not ratteling, the valve train. Long story short. Cloyes Timing Chains.... wait for it....


SUCK MAJOR DONKY D**K..

Also, i feel that the 20-228-4 cam is not a good fit for a 4 speed car, as you have to get up on the pipe, (yeah 2 stroke bikes) aka 3000 rpms for the cam to be happy rowing the gears and is all done at 6k. I will say that it’s not bad if you stuff the gas peddle to the floor, not lifting, and bang the gears. But for a auto cross, corner carver, it’s not what you want. Now, if i had a slush box, (read 904/727) and a 3k stall, it’s be a beast...

PS, saw @yellowrose the last few days, he says hi to all everyone, even the haters with a middle finger.

Cool. Tell him I said hay. I need to call him in the next few days anyhow. Ain't talked to him in a minute.

 

[70dart340]

You guys are pathetic. A guy starts a thread asking for help and you hop in and derail it by getting into a discussion about old rock music. Have some respect for the OP and think before you post.

You're right, Mike, and I apologize.

 

[MoparLeo]

I would be checking the oil for metal before I went any farther. Noises don't happen for no reason. Let the car sit 1 day and then drain at least a quart out of the pan plug.
And please use the Factory Service Manual. Or maybe think about putting the stock rockers back on.

 

[JjyKs]

Well good ending to this story. Readjusted everything one more time, letting the lifters fully decompress before doing anything (loosened the adjusting nut, waited 10 min listening to music and then adjusted preload to 1/2 turns. This got rid of the "dragging/grinding" sound. So most likely they were too tight due to me not letting them decompress completely before taking the slack off.

Then only thing I had left was that occasional tick from 1 cylinder. Checked everything with automotive stethoscope. Found the culprit, and put extra half turn of preload there as well (still in comp cams spec).

Now it's quieter than it's ever been with me. I can hear some "sewing machine" like sound at idle and at 3000rpm while cruising, but it doesn't sound alarming. Thanks to everyone helping!

 

[Dartswinger70]

I amember setting valves too tight on a small block chevy, after a while it wont run right, I figure the valves dont close all the way...