I had a new car / old car build idea.

[timk225]

I was watching an uncle tony's garage video today from a year ago, and he was talking about how new cars are all canbus and modules and computer controlled and expensive to repair. As an IT person I know the tech details and it is completely unnecessary technology for a car.

Yesterday I went to a local junkyard to get some extra electrical wire for my upcoming Duster project of replacing its whole engine bay wiring with a new Year One harness. A few wires will have to be extended, since the harness comes as a V-8, and certain Slant Six components have longer wires. I came across a '22 Dodge Charger that was for the most part a bare body. No major damage, but also no drivetrain, not much wiring, no interior, etc.

And I had the idea, why not put an entire old car electrical system and drivetrain in a new car body?

Just to use the '22 Charger for an example, order up a whole new body wiring assembly for something like a 1971 Charger and adapt it to the '22 Charger. Rig up the taillights, brake lights, headlights and turn signals all on the 1971 harness. And yes, you'd have to figure out how to make old style turn signals work, but how hard could it be? Build a nice 340 / 727 combination and drop it in with a driveshaft made to connect to the stock Charger rear axle assembly. Make up a nice instrument cluster of AutoMeter gauges.

Now you'd be missing a few things, like no ABS brakes, no airbags, etc. But that is extra BS that isn't really needed to make the car go. All the important stuff would work on the 1971 wiring harness, like brake lights, headlights, and turn signals.

As for passing a 2022 emissions test, since the car is still a '22? Cash bribes.

 

[mopar head]

Cash bribes.

You`ll need it without the cats.lol

 

[harrisonm]

I was watching an uncle tony's garage video today from a year ago, and he was talking about how new cars are all canbus and modules and computer controlled and expensive to repair. As an IT person I know the tech details and it is completely unnecessary technology for a car.

Yesterday I went to a local junkyard to get some extra electrical wire for my upcoming Duster project of replacing its whole engine bay wiring with a new Year One harness. A few wires will have to be extended, since the harness comes as a V-8, and certain Slant Six components have longer wires. I came across a '22 Dodge Charger that was for the most part a bare body. No major damage, but also no drivetrain, not much wiring, no interior, etc.

And I had the idea, why not put an entire old car electrical system and drivetrain in a new car body?

Just to use the '22 Charger for an example, order up a whole new body wiring assembly for something like a 1971 Charger and adapt it to the '22 Charger. Rig up the taillights, brake lights, headlights and turn signals all on the 1971 harness. And yes, you'd have to figure out how to make old style turn signals work, but how hard could it be? Build a nice 340 / 727 combination and drop it in with a driveshaft made to connect to the stock Charger rear axle assembly. Make up a nice instrument cluster of AutoMeter gauges.

Now you'd be missing a few things, like no ABS brakes, no airbags, etc. But that is extra BS that isn't really needed to make the car go. All the important stuff would work on the 1971 wiring harness, like brake lights, headlights, and turn signals.

As for passing a 2022 emissions test, since the car is still a '22? Cash bribes.

OR, you could move to a state like Kansas that has no annual emissions testing. For that matter, we have no safety inspections either. You should see some of the rust buckets that are on the road here, so bribes are not needed. Speaking of cats (I assume you meant catalytic converters and not a few of RRR's pets), I have heard of people rodding out a cat with a pry bar until it is basically a straight through with nothing in the middle. Then it is installed and bam, you have cats on your car.

 

[72bluNblu]

Why?

For less time and money you could put an A-body back on the road and have a cool classic car to drive. You’d just be doing a tremendous amount of work to have a “new” car that didn’t work right.

 

[Mattax]

OK. This is just a fun idea to play with.
You'd have to define new.
The challenges are:
The newest stuff has a lot of drive by wire components - presumably to get around physical limitations of having mechanical linkages.
The not so new generation of vehicles coming in the 1980s and 90s used some form of electric fuel injection, and many had electric fans. These items run during start, and the fans often run after shutdown. They can all be wired simply, but not with the wiring strategy of the 1920s through 70s that our cars have. There were exceptions of course. Jeep continued using carbs and traditional wiring on the full size jeeps through 1985. They continued using carbs through 1991 but switched their electrical strategy (although arguable not particulalry better).

Have people taken newer cars and gone the other way, replacing TBI and newer ignitions with carbs and simpler ignition? Sure!

racingfuelsystems-More on E-core coils, TFI and Duraspark.

E-core coils are appealing. There's no oil which means no air pockets at the top, and they're supposed to be more efficient. I've got one paired

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[72bluNblu]

OK. This is just a fun idea to play with.
You'd have to define new.
The challenges are:
The newest stuff has a lot of drive by wire components - presumably to get around physical limitations of having mechanical linkages.
The not so new generation of vehicles coming in the 1980s and 90s used some form of electric fuel injection, and many had electric fans. These items run during start, and the fans often run after shutdown. They can all be wired simply, but not with the wiring strategy of the 1920s through 70s that our cars have. There were exceptions of course. Jeep continued using carbs and traditional wiring on the full size jeeps through 1985. They continued using carbs through 1991 but switched their electrical strategy (although arguable not particulalry better).

Have people taken newer cars and gone the other way, replacing TBI and newer ignitions with carbs and simpler ignition? Sure!

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[/URL]

Yeah nothing earlier than ~2000 is new anymore. Don’t some places consider anything over 20 years old “classic”?

An actual new car would be a nightmare, like the ‘22 Charger the OP gave as an example. Almost nothing would work, not the heat/AC box, not the windows or door locks, forget about all the engine controls, airbags, ABS, traction control, etc. And depending on the car some of that stuff doesn’t exist in a manual version, like manual windows, locks, mirrors etc. All fly by wire even on the lower trim models for a lot of cars. You’d have to break into the motors to wire them direct and then you’d need different switches too, it all runs through the BCU.

By the time you were done the whole car would have to be aftermarket or custom, it’s not like you can buy an aftermarket heater box for a ‘22 Charger.

You’d be far better off building a resto-mod A-body and picking and choosing the stuff you wanted.

 

[DionR]

Not really a new idea if you look at it from the racecar or really outlandish engine swaps view point. I'm betting stuff like a GM BB swap with an 8-71 and dual quads into a late model Camaro pretty much guts the electronics of the car. Pretty sure the S550 Vorshlag built with an LS is pretty much the same idea, too, except it is more race car than street car.

My issue is that I like some of those electronic systems. I'm a pretty big fan of EFI and I am seeing more and more that ABS can be a real help on a road course. And starting with a late model shell would mean things like the fuel system would be easy, as would be wheel speed sensors if you wanted to keep ABS. But gutting the car and running something like a Terminator X setup for the motor could work well if you started with a V6 model. You could even keep the DBW setup and avoid having to build/mount a cable throttle pedal if you were to do something like a late model Challenger. I wonder if the 3 mode suspension from a HC or Demon could be made to work "stand alone".

The biggest headache I can think of is stuff like the steering column. It doesn't have wires that run out of it that trigger turn signals and such. All of the inputs go through a module in the column that put them on the CANBus network, so it would probably mean a entirely new column.

Blu brings up a good point with the windows, but it is still just electricity to the motors so I would guess that while it might need new switches it wouldn't be that big of a deal.

Heat/AC would have to be all custom but I don't see it being much different than the kits offered for an A-Body now. Those don't work well in their "designed" application so why would it be harder in something like an LX/LC?

There are definitely some hurdles but maybe it is workable? Has me daydreaming.

The things I can think of that make it a better option than an A-Body is stuff like a G3/TR6060 swap is cake with the late model car, no EFI fuel system to build, generally no rust to worry about, 20" wheels and 305 or 315 tires are a bolt on. And I think I have seen the Drag Pak cars down around 3100# so it might even be as light as an A-Body if done right.

And it might be harder to steal than a new Hellcat.

At the same time, not sure I can honestly say it is a better idea than just buying a Scat Pack and driving it. I guess that is probably because I would want to keep things like the EFI so it isn't all that far of a deviation from the stock car. Might be easier if you start with a V6, but beyond that seems like a bunch of work to get to a similar place.

 

[MopaR&D]

Swapping in an old-school engine and trans might work, it's been done but the entire wiring system? That sounds like a nightmare for no real benefit. It's not the physical wiring and electronics that suck, it's the fact that all of the mechanical subsystems have electronic controls that are all heavily integrated with each other (i.e. one thing fails, it makes a bunch of other stuff not work and/or control module freaks out and throws a bunch of codes).

Not to mention mechanical parts are designed with a very finite lifespan and are meant to be thrown out and replaced, not rebuilt.

 

[Killer6]

Yeah nothing earlier than ~2000 is new anymore. Don’t some places consider anything over 20 years old “classic”?

An actual new car would be a nightmare, like the ‘22 Charger the OP gave as an example. Almost nothing would work, not the heat/AC box, not the windows or door locks, forget about all the engine controls, airbags, ABS, traction control, etc. And depending on the car some of that stuff doesn’t exist in a manual version, like manual windows, locks, mirrors etc. All fly by wire even on the lower trim models for a lot of cars. You’d have to break into the motors to wire them direct and then you’d need different switches too, it all runs through the BCU.

By the time you were done the whole car would have to be aftermarket or custom, it’s not like you can buy an aftermarket heater box for a ‘22 Charger.

You’d be far better off building a resto-mod A-body and picking and choosing the stuff you wanted.

PA is 15yrs. & discontinued model for classic plates, 25yrs. & ^ for antique plates. Each has it's own 'rules & restrictions', but are lifetime/non transferrable.

 

[AJ/FormS]

And I had the idea, why not put an entire old car electrical system and drivetrain in a new car body?

I like your idea.
I've been toying with a similar thought, but at age 72, I even if I lived long enough to finish it, will I still be fit enough to drive it?
Oh to be 40 to 50 again.......

 

[JDMopar]

I've heard thru the grapevine that there is a guy near Spartanburg, SC who has a Dodge Wagnum with a 470 in it with a 727. Supposedly a street driven car that is crazy fast. Just hearsay....I haven't seen it.

 

[72bluNblu]

I've heard thru the grapevine that there is a guy near Spartanburg, SC who has a Dodge Wagnum with a 470 in it with a 727. Supposedly a street driven car that is crazy fast. Just hearsay....I haven't seen it.

Still a different animal than a truly “new” car. Latest a Magnum could be is 2008, they were available with a 42RLE so a 727 isn’t an issue, they were available with manual windows/locks/cable actuated controls etc.

and it’s already been mentioned, but running a standalone engine/transmission in a newer vehicle is still a lot easier than re-wiring a new car to get rid of the electronic controls. And the newer the car the harder it gets.

 

[harrisonm]

Yeah nothing earlier than ~2000 is new anymore.

I guess I am OLD. When I was 17 years old, I was looking for my first car. I looked a 57 Chevy 2 Dr HT. It was only 10 years old at the time.

 

[mopar head]

I guess I am OLD. When I was 17 years old, I was looking for my first car. I looked a 57 Chevy 2 Dr HT. It was only 10 years old at the time.

74? yeah, you old...

 

[DionR]

I think this Mustang does a pretty good job of representing this idea.

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How do you make a 2008 Shelby GT500 faster around the road course? Install a VMP TVS-blown, Gen 2 Coyote 5.0-liter engine in place of the iron-block 5.4.

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This is an earlier build of this car, it has had more work since then. And I can't tell if or what was done for things like windows and such. But it has certainly had the dash stripped so I would guess it doesn't have much of the original electronics left. Although, it is an '08 and a Ford so not really sure how integrated they are.

I did spend some time looking at some wiring diagrams from a '15-18 Charger and I think it would be a complete re-wire. The power window switches run direct to the motors, but the only connection between the drivers switch to the other door(s) is through the network. So they might run fine without the CANBus network, but rolling windows down would be like with manual windows where you have to go to each door. The headlights and taillights are direct from the BCM and I doubt that would be easy to keep so those would need new wiring.

That said, I kind of like the idea. Buy a base v6 Challenger and gut it. Swap in a Blueprint motor with a TR6060 and Holley engine controls with one of their dashes. Put a double DIN radio in the hole in the dash and whatever kits needed to wire up head and tail lights, windows, locks and heat/AC. Bolt on some 15.4" brakes, widebody kit and 305's with the SP WB suspension bits and go have fun with it. You could even start with an earlier body and swap in the 2015+ interior since (I think) most of the problems with that swap is the electronics and that issue is sidestepped in this idea. Might even be able to bolt in and run a 3-mode suspension if there is an aftermarket controller that doesn't need much for inputs.

 

[Oldmanmopar]

Still a different animal than a truly “new” car. Latest a Magnum could be is 2008, they were available with a 42RLE so a 727 isn’t an issue, they were available with manual windows/locks/cable actuated controls etc.

and it’s already been mentioned, but running a standalone engine/transmission in a newer vehicle is still a lot easier than re-wiring a new car to get rid of the electronic controls. And the newer the car the harder it gets.

Nope your wrong

 

[diymirage]

i say got for it, if you got the skill, the money, the place, the time and the patience to do it, why not ?

the biggest problem will be, since this is a '22 charger, will it look ok with 17 inch rims, or will the 70s heart reject those?

 

[timk225]

Nope your wrong

No need for a standalone engine controller, if you're building it the way I said in the original post. Which would be a 1971 Charger complete body wiring harness (as used in my example), the old ECU and voltage regulator, and a carburetor.

Put old style light bulbs and wiring in place of the '22 headlights and tailights and that is done. Use the '22 light assemblies, just change the bulb and its socket.

Power windows would be a little work, but if the drivers door has the switches for all 2 or 4 doors, then a little wiring and a +12 volt power source is all that is needed.