Ignition problems.

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Ozzy

Ozzy

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Hey everyone- hope you're all healthy. I'm stuck at home in PA due to our Governor's lock down order, so I've had some time to put in under the hood.
Ever since I swapped out my points for electronic ignition, I've had nothing but troubles. It's gotta be me. I never did like messing with electrical. Until recently, I was usually messin with Chevrolet engines. Until I stumbled upon a 1967 Barracuda. I never really had a problem with GM electronics, and have converted points to electronic a few times. But Mopar has been perplexing me.
I started out purchasing a Petronix kit for the 318 distributer and installing it. Well it was okay, but didn't seem to run as well as the stock/points distributer. So after readjusting, and trying to time it, and bla bla bla, I scrapped that idea, and purchased the system with a brand new distributer and the "orange box". Still no satisfaction. I ended up talking with my mechanic, who thought it might be the carb was shot. It was running very rich. In fact, it had to run rich to keep it running. So, after installing a Holley 600 dbl pumper, it ran worse than ever. I still agree though, that the new carb was needed.
Aggravated, I looked around for a better solution to the ignition problem and found this posting on Slant Six Forum: HEI Electronic Ignition Retrofit How-To - Slant Six Forum
Now that seemed like the simplest solution to my ignition problem- easy peezy! Well, after carefully and methodically creeping my way through the process explained in the article, I was all fired up to fire it up! Turned the key, and cranked her over. And over...and over. No ignition. I had my son check for spark and turned her over. None. Went over the wiring to make sure everything was correct. Yes, correct. What the hell.
Anyone have any suggestions? I'm assuming the article is legit...
 
Let's start with the simple stuff

1....First there may be a wiring problem in the car, and won't matter what sort of ignition you hook to "the problem." You may or may not have created this problem. It might be as simple as the you wiggled say, a shakey bulkhead connector terminal and now it's not making contact

2....If you don't have the wiring completely dressed, tear enough of it apart that you can "hot wire" it direct to the battery and maybe eliminate other areas

3....Was there actually anything wrong with the breaker points setup? Do you still have it? If nothing else, you could swap that back in until you get a baseline/ get the carb settled down and go from there

4....The 4 or 6 pin HEI work great, generally, and are simple. Except for the ballast resistor, the HEI really (I know it does not appear so) wires up pretty much just like the Mopar breakerless.

Here is a good simple diagram one of the guys here came up with
4pin-jpg.jpg


Now, and this is IMPORTANT!!! On a stock system, either points or Mopar breakerless, the "ignition run" (IGN1) line goes DEAD during cranking by design. The ONLY ignition power to the system comes from the bypass circuit in the key switch, which is normally brown (IGN2) and goes from the switch out to the coil+ side of the ballast

So start by making a couple of tests.

1....Turn key to run, clip your meter to coil+ and ground. Voltage should be roughly 8-10V not much lower and not much higher
2....Turn key to "start" and read meter while cranking. Meter should read "same as battery" or pretty close, and at least 10.5V or more.
3...Make SURE nothing is connect to the coil + side of the ballast as it will load down running coil voltage. Also suspect you may have a bad tach if you have one connected
 
If you decide to connect an HEI module: Whether using a 4 or 6 pin, connect the distributor pickup wires as per the diagrams, or the reluctor to rotor / cap timing will be wrong. This is called "rotor phasing" you can Google that

The HEI has a locator pin and if your mounting has no clearance hole for it, it must be broken/ filed off. Make certain the module is mounted flat on a flat surface and should have thermal compound for heat sink. Make sure both mounting holes are grounded.

You can bypass the ballast with an HEI, make sure the brown bypass wire is included when splicing. If it won't fire on the starter check that
 
If you still have the points dist. it is easy to swap that back in, EASY. In fact, with a Mopar breakerless system, a points dist makes a good quick repair if something quits. The coil side of the ballast resistor is wired exactly the same for either points or Mopar breakerless.

This means for example, if either the module or distributor quits with the breakerless system, ALL you need to do to get on the road is to remove the breakerless dist, drop in the breaker points one, and hook the dist. wire up to coil NEG. Unplug the module connector and time it and go
 
That video is not bad, here are some comments

Some comments. Most of your video is excellent information

Please do not refer to the Mopar breakerless dist. as "HEI." Also, 413/426/440 do not use the same dist as a low deck

I've had good luck with the stock Mopar coil and no ballast, using a GM module. The GM module varies the dwell electronically, and does not seem to hurt the coil or the module

Dielectric "grease" is not the same as thermal compound. These modules are designed to use a thermal compound for heat transfer.

You do NOT need to jumper both sections of a dual ballast. Incidently the ballast wiring for the Mopar ECU is done the same way for the coil either breaker points or breakerless. ON a Mopar breakerless you can actually swap in a points dist. in an emvergency, simply connecting the dist wire to the coil NEG and disconnecting the module. It will run fine

Be careful screwing with all this as none of the ignition/ regulator wiring is fused, and therefore not protected

I see you started this with no heat sink. That is dangerous. These modules need a heat sink

Last consider using the ignition switch IGN1 output to fire a relay and use the relay to supply ignition and VR power. This keeps the VR from causeing overcharge due to voltage drop TO the VR
 
dano said:
How good are your engine grounds to the chassis?
Click to expand...
I thought the same thing. I sanded the firewall contact and the ground wire contact. I also ran a ground from the module and the coil body to the same contact. Thanks for the thought though.
 
cawcislo said:
I also had issues going from points to hei, car wouldn’t start or if it did wouldn’t rev over 2000 rpm. Went back to points for now. Here’s a video on you tube of a guy converting mopar small block points to hei with mopar electronic distributor. This may help.
Click to expand...

Thanks cawcislo- I'll watch that video tonight. I appreciate your help.
 
67Dart273 said:
That video is not bad, here are some comments

Some comments. Most of your video is excellent information

Please do not refer to the Mopar breakerless dist. as "HEI." Also, 413/426/440 do not use the same dist as a low deck

I've had good luck with the stock Mopar coil and no ballast, using a GM module. The GM module varies the dwell electronically, and does not seem to hurt the coil or the module

Dielectric "grease" is not the same as thermal compound. These modules are designed to use a thermal compound for heat transfer.

You do NOT need to jumper both sections of a dual ballast. Incidently the ballast wiring for the Mopar ECU is done the same way for the coil either breaker points or breakerless. ON a Mopar breakerless you can actually swap in a points dist. in an emvergency, simply connecting the dist wire to the coil NEG and disconnecting the module. It will run fine

Be careful screwing with all this as none of the ignition/ regulator wiring is fused, and therefore not protected

I see you started this with no heat sink. That is dangerous. These modules need a heat sink

Last consider using the ignition switch IGN1 output to fire a relay and use the relay to supply ignition and VR power. This keeps the VR from causeing overcharge due to voltage drop TO the VR
Click to expand...

Thanks so much, 67Dart273. That's a lot of info. Gimme some time to decipher it all and try things out. I'll get back to you guys afterwards.
Thanks again!
 
I did wire in a 10 amp fuse to a 4 wire regulator, and fed things from there. I'm gonna check your suggestion about the run/start ignition wires too. Might have tapped the wrong one?
 
Too much bad info out there! This is why some Manufactures get dished and not deserving of it.

My Pertonix III is awesome. Like said above ^^^^ the whole picture!
 
What was the Orange-Box system doing?
FYI
I highly recommend that you do not try to run an E-core coil on a non-CDI system. They are designed for a much higher than 12volt input, and in my experience, do very poorly on 12 volts.
My best experience with coils is the big yellow square-top Accell Super Coil P4120889 and matching 1 ohm ballast resistor P5206436 . It will take all the abuse you can give it, and lasts for decades. In a pinch, you might be able to weld with it,.... lol. The catalog says " not recommended for engine speeds over 6500"; well my streeter runs to 7200 no problem with it, so IDK about the warning.
I used to run that Orange-Box with zero problems. But it is polarity sensitive.

I run my ignition system off a relay, triggered by the ignition switch, and grounded by a secret switch.
 
4spdragtop said:
I got nothing to add other than do you have a manual? If not go to mymopar.com and download for free.
Click to expand...
Thanks ragtop, I do have a manual. Funny fact you probably know already, Mopar had to put out a "special addition" on the '67 Barracuda. There were a few things unique about that one year/model that wasn't in the "original" manual.
Anyway, the wiring scheme/colors is one of those differences. I went back into the wiring diagrams, and may have found the problem. If I'm right, it's thanks to 67dart273 and cawcislo.
 
AJ/FormS said:
What was the Orange-Box system doing?
FYI
I highly recommend that you do not try to run an E-core coil on a non-CDI system. They are designed for a much higher than 12volt input, and in my experience, do very poorly on 12 volts.
My best experience with coils is the big yellow square-top Accell Super Coil P4120889 and matching 1 ohm ballast resistor P5206436 . It will take all the abuse you can give it, and lasts for decades. In a pinch, you might be able to weld with it,.... lol. The catalog says " not recommended for engine speeds over 6500"; well my streeter runs to 7200 no problem with it, so IDK about the warning.
I used to run that Orange-Box with zero problems. But it is polarity sensitive.

I run my ignition system off a relay, triggered by the ignition switch, and grounded by a secret switch.
Click to expand...
Thanks AJ, I'll take your advice into consideration. And I like the hidden switch idea. Never thought of running one to a ground before.
 
Did you change the coil and go with suppression wires when you went to electronic? Also no ballast resistor used with any petronix.
 

You have the supplement that includes the wiring? I was using a 67 schematic from mymopar but it turns out it was from a Motors manual. I have factory one now.
Good luck!
Ozzy said:
Thanks ragtop, I do have a manual. Funny fact you probably know already, Mopar had to put out a "special addition" on the '67 Barracuda. There were a few things unique about that one year/model that wasn't in the "original" manual.
Anyway, the wiring scheme/colors is one of those differences. I went back into the wiring diagrams, and may have found the problem. If I'm right, it's thanks to 67dart273 and cawcislo.
Click to expand...
 
Ozzy said:
Thanks ragtop, I do have a manual. Funny fact you probably know already, Mopar had to put out a "special addition" on the '67 Barracuda. There were a few things unique about that one year/model that wasn't in the "original" manual.
Anyway, the wiring scheme/colors is one of those differences. I went back into the wiring diagrams, and may have found the problem. If I'm right, it's thanks to 67dart273 and cawcislo.
Click to expand...

Try this.
 

Attachments

I cadded from the 67 supplement. When used in Adobe find the layer switch to turn on and off circuits. I have asked for feedback to change layering but no responses as of yet. I have 68 and 69 the same only they are much better! 67 was very lacking from MaPar!

Also have 67-69 Dart unfinished per say.
 
67Dart273 said:
Where did you find this?
Click to expand...


I have posted these over and over. Please experiment with the Layer switch in Adobe reader to hide and unhide circuits. Feed back is welcome and these can be even better.
 

Attachments

1969383S said:
I cadded from the 67 supplement. When used in Adobe find the layer switch to turn on and off circuits. I have asked for feedback to change layering but no responses as of yet. I have 68 and 69 the same only they are much better! 67 was very lacking from MaPar!

Also have 67-69 Dart unfinished per say.
Click to expand...
Thanks 1969383S- the color helps! But I found a strange problem when I tried to refer to the supplemental wiring diagram. My wire colors in the engine compartment bulkheads are completely different than the diagram's. Is the wiring in the supplement wrong also, or did someone before me change a lot of wiring around? I can't think someone would change the wires in a bulkhead connection. I'm gonna make my own diagram to show you guys the difference...
 
Ozzy said:
Yes, I changed the coil to epoxy filled, and just wired it like the directions said.
Click to expand...

With Pertronix per say. Ignition Wires must be Suppressor type, the Correct Coil must used for the version, and bypassed ballast. Also the plugs should be gapped a bit wider, but if the previous is correct it may be a little experiment for the final plug gaping. I have the III with the correct III coil and Taylor suppressor wires. Resistor is bypassed from behind and really is a good set-up. Rev limiter included on the III. I can tell you, My Taylor Solid core wires used with a Gold Box from Chrysler were of no use, as I thought it would not matter. Sparks were flying everywhere on initial start. I used Pertronix so I could hide it all for a factory look and succeeded! Best I have used yet. Chrysler, MSD, Mallory all left me wanting better.

Read up on the manufacturer recommendations and follow them religiously for the Ignition system you end up using!
 
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