Sorry, I forgot you. The more the merrier. I'll supply the beer and steaks while you guys argue and weld up my car.
I'm Heartbroken. Time to face reality that my Cuda is a parts car.
- Thread starter RSie
- Start date
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Does this mean your not onboard with welding up my car? Heartbroken again.
Does this mean your not onboard with welding up my car? Heartbroken again.
I’d totally be on board if you weren’t half a country away!
I like welding. I wish I got to practice more to be better at it. I learned to TIG weld in my old man’s automotive restoration shop as a teenager. I only started MIG welding because TIG is slow and overkill for most of the repairs that need to be done on these cars.
kgip2k
Well-Known Member
moparmat2000
Well-Known Member
Agreed. I got a Lincoln weldpak 100. I added a mig conversion kit, picked up a new bottle from praxair online. Works great.
kgip2k
Well-Known Member
Your Hobart 140 is a good welder. Get a gas bottle and it will treat you right, but don't overlook flux, as it will penetrate deeper, and make a stronger weld, may not be as pretty.
"it will penetrate deeper,... may not be as pretty."
Had a girl tell me that once.
Sorry, I had to.
Time for me to put down the beer and get off hit interwebs thingy.
kgip2k
Well-Known Member
"it will penetrate deeper,... may not be as pretty."
Had a girl tell me that once.
Sorry, I had to.
Time for me to put down the beer and get off hit interwebs thingy.
Been there done that... Well I hope not "that"... Lol let me know what you plan to do. I am more than willing to help you any way possible.
What on earth are you talking about?
I never said MIG was the only way. I said flux core wire is crap. And when I said that, I meant it in the application of automotive repair. Because let’s face it, this is a thread on an automotive forum, about automotive repair, and specifically about fixing a rusty Barracuda. Not bridge construction, not pipeline repair, not wet welding on a ship at sea.
TIG is actually preferred for thin sheet metal welding. It gives better heat control and therefore reduces warping, even compared to MIG. And yes, it’s stronger than MIG because MIG welds tend to be more brittle by comparison. But that’s relative, because we’re talking about 20 to 16 gauge sheet metal here and in most cases the sheet metal itself will fail long before the weld does.
And most hobbyist level car enthusiasts don’t have a TIG machine in their garage. So yeah, MIG welding is just fine. If you’re gonna do a lot of it, like RSie is going to be doing, a gas set up for the MIG will be worth every penny.
You wanna stick weld sheet metal, be my guest. You wanna do it all with Oxyacetylene, man, more power to you ‘cause you’ve gotta be more talented than me to pull off all that hammer welding and heat quenching to keep that 20 gauge straight. You’ve got a TIG welder in your shop like I do, sweet, do that.
But RSie’s got a Hobart 140. So, he’s gonna MIG and that’s great. A gas set up will make his life way easier and his welds better for this application. So maybe we can just leave all that other BS off yeah?
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Cope
Fusing with fire
Ok, wow...
I have both TIG and MIG. Both are full industrial machines. I most often use the MIG, non flux core to repair sheetmetal.
TIG is for oil pick up tubes and very fine work. When I need to burn metal at a rate that pays the bills. I using the wire feed and the air to cool it off.
By the way you wanna see what rust looks like? Let me see if I can post a shot of my car... (I'm having issue uploading lately.)
Let me tell you it ain't rusty untill you can read the tire brand THROUGH the quarter panels...
And even that ain't that bad.....
Do I give a rats *** about the rust? Nope.
Do I DRIVE the dam wheels off it?
YUP!
I'm working on a customers build now. Rusty as all get out.. he cant afford for me to fix all the rust so I just put in new floor pans. And by new floor pans, I mean just flat 18 gauge. Not even re pop pans. I just blasted in flat steel. Is it concours? No. Is it way better than it was?
Yes.
Will it be covered up with floor mats?
Yes.
Will anyone ever know besides the owner and me?
No.
On the other hand, I had a customer who REALLY wanted a car. I looked it over and even tho I was gonna make a fair amount off the deal i had to tell him. "This ain't the car for you."
I have both TIG and MIG. Both are full industrial machines. I most often use the MIG, non flux core to repair sheetmetal.
TIG is for oil pick up tubes and very fine work. When I need to burn metal at a rate that pays the bills. I using the wire feed and the air to cool it off.
By the way you wanna see what rust looks like? Let me see if I can post a shot of my car... (I'm having issue uploading lately.)
Let me tell you it ain't rusty untill you can read the tire brand THROUGH the quarter panels...
And even that ain't that bad.....
Do I give a rats *** about the rust? Nope.
Do I DRIVE the dam wheels off it?
YUP!
I'm working on a customers build now. Rusty as all get out.. he cant afford for me to fix all the rust so I just put in new floor pans. And by new floor pans, I mean just flat 18 gauge. Not even re pop pans. I just blasted in flat steel. Is it concours? No. Is it way better than it was?
Yes.
Will it be covered up with floor mats?
Yes.
Will anyone ever know besides the owner and me?
No.
On the other hand, I had a customer who REALLY wanted a car. I looked it over and even tho I was gonna make a fair amount off the deal i had to tell him. "This ain't the car for you."
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moparmat2000
Well-Known Member
Ok everyone hes got a mig welder. We can all debate what's better, but none of that matters since he has what he has, However For automotive gauge thickness panels, the thinner the wire the better. A mig with a bottle is the best for clean non splattery welds. It's still slow going, tack and cool tack and cool etc.
Flux core works too, but is a splattery mesh, requires a lot of clean up afterwards because of slag balls. Also requires thicker wire. This will heat warp the metal faster. I use flux core on my fence line and any other place that I need the portability. I did use flux core on a 1960 El Camino I restored but the exterior sheetmetal in that one was pretty damn thick compared to these cars.
RSie, I recommend you tackle the structural side of things first. For 2 reasons, 1 it make the most sense to stiffen it back up, and 2 it will allow you time to practice on welding this thin stuff without heat warping it.
I also recommend before tackling something major to post pix of the issue you have, ask advice on Fabo first. Theres probably a bunch of different ways to repair each issue, and somebody knowledgable will pop up and be able to offer advice.
I know I will pop up to help if it's something I have done, and can give advice on. I can tell you this, you need to make the car "square" before you do anything structural on it. These things are flexi flyers.
Flux core works too, but is a splattery mesh, requires a lot of clean up afterwards because of slag balls. Also requires thicker wire. This will heat warp the metal faster. I use flux core on my fence line and any other place that I need the portability. I did use flux core on a 1960 El Camino I restored but the exterior sheetmetal in that one was pretty damn thick compared to these cars.
RSie, I recommend you tackle the structural side of things first. For 2 reasons, 1 it make the most sense to stiffen it back up, and 2 it will allow you time to practice on welding this thin stuff without heat warping it.
I also recommend before tackling something major to post pix of the issue you have, ask advice on Fabo first. Theres probably a bunch of different ways to repair each issue, and somebody knowledgable will pop up and be able to offer advice.
I know I will pop up to help if it's something I have done, and can give advice on. I can tell you this, you need to make the car "square" before you do anything structural on it. These things are flexi flyers.
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moparmat2000
Well-Known Member
Squaring it up. Since your garage floor isnt dead level. No concrete pad is, you need to buy 4 bubble type torpedo levels, along with 4 good jack stands.
Remove the sill plates, then tape mount one torpedo level on each rocker panel facing front to back where the sill plate would screw down.
Set and tape 3rd torpedo level across the rear shock mount inside the trunk on top of the transition pan facing side to side.
Set and tape the 4th torpedo level across upper radiator support on the small ledge that faces the radiator.
Set the car on the jack stands putting 2 at the rear framerails nearest to the shackles. Put the other 2 jack stands under the front rails near the k frame. Then shim the jack stands with steel sheetmetal shims between the stands and body until all 4 torpedo levels are level. Now the car is level.
If the body and structure is really rotten, you probably need to strip as much unboltable weight out of it first before doing this.
Also remember, the dimensions these cars used since hand built in the 1960s and not computer robot welded can sometimes be off as much as 1/8" from the factory.
Remove the sill plates, then tape mount one torpedo level on each rocker panel facing front to back where the sill plate would screw down.
Set and tape 3rd torpedo level across the rear shock mount inside the trunk on top of the transition pan facing side to side.
Set and tape the 4th torpedo level across upper radiator support on the small ledge that faces the radiator.
Set the car on the jack stands putting 2 at the rear framerails nearest to the shackles. Put the other 2 jack stands under the front rails near the k frame. Then shim the jack stands with steel sheetmetal shims between the stands and body until all 4 torpedo levels are level. Now the car is level.
If the body and structure is really rotten, you probably need to strip as much unboltable weight out of it first before doing this.
Also remember, the dimensions these cars used since hand built in the 1960s and not computer robot welded can sometimes be off as much as 1/8" from the factory.
moper
Well-Known Member
Three things have to exist simultaneously to get any project completed over any length of time. These are in order of importance: 1. emotional investment of some sort; 2. time; and 3. money.
Emotional investment could be love for an owner, love of the work, distraction from other vices or negativity, a personal history, appreciation of a pedigree, etc. This is first because it will keep you trundling the car carcass around with you, traveling around looking for parts, getting burned on parts, healing from burns/cuts/bruises/exhaustion, and giving resistance to others who say "why do you bother". You have to want it, as they say. And that has to be a strong want.
Time to make progress. Sometimes that steps, even small ones like picking up the garage and sweeping or blowing dust off it. You need to find the time, or make it, to offset collecting years of tax returns, or weathering kids between birth and 23, or family responsibilities, or career development.
Last and IMO least is money. Money to store it. Money for parts. Money for tools. Money for labor you simply can't handle or believe you can't handle. Money to keep life paid for so you don't need to liquidate the car(s).
I have six cars. One runs. The others are close to or are basket cases. Two are flipper/investment cars. Three I have personal history with (good experiences, owned in my teens (I'm almost 49), etc. One is only there to recreate a car I have fond memories of. Nothing will be completed for more years. 4 of the 6 would be considered parts cars if I was looking at them as a buyer. Well, maybe 3 of the 6... Anyway the ones I have, I have reasons for. I take time when I can. Sometimes I have none for months. Sometimes I have a lot but don't have the money for what I need. Sometimes I work on others' cars to finance my own. The last car I painted was barter for years of dry storage...
We don't all have a ton of money to write checks or buy a perfect car. So you do what you can. If you've lost the motivation because the job is too big, get rid of it and either lament the loss, or find one that's better. Just understand that at this point unless you're very lucky, whatever you can afford will be in the same shape as what you have. If you had the money to write a check and fix it you wouldn't be in this position. So I'm assuming you don't have the money for a better example.
I didn't read the last two plus pages but that's where I'm at. I think you should decide if you can commit to fix it, or just cut strings and move on to something else. Maybe you already did that...lol
Emotional investment could be love for an owner, love of the work, distraction from other vices or negativity, a personal history, appreciation of a pedigree, etc. This is first because it will keep you trundling the car carcass around with you, traveling around looking for parts, getting burned on parts, healing from burns/cuts/bruises/exhaustion, and giving resistance to others who say "why do you bother". You have to want it, as they say. And that has to be a strong want.
Time to make progress. Sometimes that steps, even small ones like picking up the garage and sweeping or blowing dust off it. You need to find the time, or make it, to offset collecting years of tax returns, or weathering kids between birth and 23, or family responsibilities, or career development.
Last and IMO least is money. Money to store it. Money for parts. Money for tools. Money for labor you simply can't handle or believe you can't handle. Money to keep life paid for so you don't need to liquidate the car(s).
I have six cars. One runs. The others are close to or are basket cases. Two are flipper/investment cars. Three I have personal history with (good experiences, owned in my teens (I'm almost 49), etc. One is only there to recreate a car I have fond memories of. Nothing will be completed for more years. 4 of the 6 would be considered parts cars if I was looking at them as a buyer. Well, maybe 3 of the 6... Anyway the ones I have, I have reasons for. I take time when I can. Sometimes I have none for months. Sometimes I have a lot but don't have the money for what I need. Sometimes I work on others' cars to finance my own. The last car I painted was barter for years of dry storage...
We don't all have a ton of money to write checks or buy a perfect car. So you do what you can. If you've lost the motivation because the job is too big, get rid of it and either lament the loss, or find one that's better. Just understand that at this point unless you're very lucky, whatever you can afford will be in the same shape as what you have. If you had the money to write a check and fix it you wouldn't be in this position. So I'm assuming you don't have the money for a better example.
I didn't read the last two plus pages but that's where I'm at. I think you should decide if you can commit to fix it, or just cut strings and move on to something else. Maybe you already did that...lol
moparmat2000
Well-Known Member
Well said moper, well said. You really have to want it for whatever reason, that's the main driving factor.
Time is a driving factor too. I had almost no time while my son was a baby and my daughters were little. Now the girls are teenagers, my son is 6, and a budding car nut. Both my wife and I still work, but I have also gotten pay raises, within this time, and that helps. Not so much with car money but allowing me more time since I dont have to work as much if any overtime to keep afloat on my responsibilities and get ahead.
As far as money goes, if that's a limiting factor, find a way to do something on the side to make mad money for your project. My brother gave me this idea years ago when he restored his monte carlo SS. He had different parts cars in and out of his driveway for what he needed for his. The rest of the parts he didnt need he posted to a monte carlo G body forum to sell to other enthusiasts to help them, and finance his own build.
I followed his lead and offer parts for sale on the parts forums here for other people. This helps me to buy what I need for both builds without using my paycheck that I desperately need to live on. In this way it also keeps good parts circulating instead of being trashed and crushed out. Lots of members on here do this to help finance their builds.
Also get on mailing lists for year one, classic industries, rock auto, AMD, Tamraz, Van's Auto, Summit racing, Jegs etc. Usually 25% - 30% off deals pop up around major holidays where your saved up cash will go farther. Dont overlook evilbay either. Price shop like mad if you need to, its Yo Money. Theres vendors on here like DMT that offer 10% off to Fabo members. Sometimes it's a waiting game until the deals pop up. Sometimes I wait with paypal cash in hand for months, then the deals pop up and I have the money to buy, buy, buy. Wife told me once that copper wire was invented by me and my brother fighting over a penny lol. Maybe that's true lol.
Time is a driving factor too. I had almost no time while my son was a baby and my daughters were little. Now the girls are teenagers, my son is 6, and a budding car nut. Both my wife and I still work, but I have also gotten pay raises, within this time, and that helps. Not so much with car money but allowing me more time since I dont have to work as much if any overtime to keep afloat on my responsibilities and get ahead.
As far as money goes, if that's a limiting factor, find a way to do something on the side to make mad money for your project. My brother gave me this idea years ago when he restored his monte carlo SS. He had different parts cars in and out of his driveway for what he needed for his. The rest of the parts he didnt need he posted to a monte carlo G body forum to sell to other enthusiasts to help them, and finance his own build.
I followed his lead and offer parts for sale on the parts forums here for other people. This helps me to buy what I need for both builds without using my paycheck that I desperately need to live on. In this way it also keeps good parts circulating instead of being trashed and crushed out. Lots of members on here do this to help finance their builds.
Also get on mailing lists for year one, classic industries, rock auto, AMD, Tamraz, Van's Auto, Summit racing, Jegs etc. Usually 25% - 30% off deals pop up around major holidays where your saved up cash will go farther. Dont overlook evilbay either. Price shop like mad if you need to, its Yo Money. Theres vendors on here like DMT that offer 10% off to Fabo members. Sometimes it's a waiting game until the deals pop up. Sometimes I wait with paypal cash in hand for months, then the deals pop up and I have the money to buy, buy, buy. Wife told me once that copper wire was invented by me and my brother fighting over a penny lol. Maybe that's true lol.
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I read a bunch of posts, and I'm sure I missed some points.
My opinion, and I do repair some rusty stuff, if YOU said to yourself, "this is a parts car", then it likely is far more work than you should take on. It will only get deeper as you go. Yes, they can be saved, and honestly some really should. But a typical /6 or 318 car is on the edge of justifiability once it gets deep. Sell it, part it (do not feel bad about this, it is needed as it saves other cars), hell just park it (God forbid! but you can use the parts if you find another shell). Find another better body that is more to your idea of what you thought this was going to be for work, and then be prepared to do a little more.
Yes, you can "build" it and drive it. You can also do a lot less work in less time and be on the road sooner.........smiles per gallon!
Disclaimer: My opinion is solely intended for consideration and is in no way portrayed to be knowledgeable!
My opinion, and I do repair some rusty stuff, if YOU said to yourself, "this is a parts car", then it likely is far more work than you should take on. It will only get deeper as you go. Yes, they can be saved, and honestly some really should. But a typical /6 or 318 car is on the edge of justifiability once it gets deep. Sell it, part it (do not feel bad about this, it is needed as it saves other cars), hell just park it (God forbid! but you can use the parts if you find another shell). Find another better body that is more to your idea of what you thought this was going to be for work, and then be prepared to do a little more.
Yes, you can "build" it and drive it. You can also do a lot less work in less time and be on the road sooner.........smiles per gallon!
Disclaimer: My opinion is solely intended for consideration and is in no way portrayed to be knowledgeable!
moparmat2000
Well-Known Member
That is true, but both my cadavers started life as slant 6 and 318 cars. I dont care about how much work it takes to put them together. Too many get parted out that are savable.
moparmat2000
Well-Known Member
Looks like 69 notch w 68 grille and hood.
Correct.
A few pics. I need to start a build thread when I have some time. @moparmat2000 , I don't think a jackstand under that rail is gonna work.
Torsion support should come out pretty easy I think.
Torsion support should come out pretty easy I think.
moparmat2000
Well-Known Member
Set the stands more forward where the bumper supports mount to them. First floor pan to swap out would be the transition pan. This is where the rear shock crossmember mounts, rear seat and dangle bracing attaches. You change this pan out first since the trunk floor and main floor pan overlap this pan. If your trunk floor is fucked, trim it back at the seam where it meets the transition pan so you can set the new transition pan in place. Once the transition pan is out, you can assess the rear framerails. They may be able to patch. If so patch them.
Then peel that main floor pan out. But before you do that, look at my 67 build thread for how I changed out the torsion bar crossmember. I first temp welded some 2" box steel across the front framerails from below the rails, and tack welded it to the bottom of the rockers this keeps the rails square. Then I peeled out the main floor pan.
Fix any rust issues in the rocker panels, weld in a new or used and rust free torsion bar crossmember, then install your new main floor pan. Butt the crossmember to the front framerails if your changing them out, and just temp screw it to the front framerails from the underside with self tapping screws this locates it where it needs to be Ditto with floorplan to front rails. You just zip the self tapping screws back out when you go and change the rails out.
I have seen guys change the whole front stub on these cars with a rust free one. At this point where I mentioned you would be, with new transition pan, torsion bar crossmember, and main floor installed installing an entire front stub would be the easiest way to fix the front clip. A front stub is essentially both frame rails. Inner fender wells upper and lower radiator supports in one unit removed from another car. It slides in place framerails you temp self tap screw to the floorplan, torsion bar crossmember, and inner fender wells to fire wall flanges. Jack and level. Temp install hood, doors fenders, and install bare stripped out K frame to be sure its squared up before welding it on. Dont forget to temp install that K frame. That is critical to framerail spacing. Once your sure its square and ready to weld, wire weld it together.
This part is super important !!!!!!! Once installed you remove your upper radiator support from the old barracuda front clip and weld it into the new clip. It has your VIN partial stamped in it. The last 8 digits stamped in it match your dash vin. If your LH inner fender well has its data plate, remove that as well and reinstall it into the new inner fender well. Dont lose these pieces!!!!!!!!! Too many people lose this stuff all the time.
Then peel that main floor pan out. But before you do that, look at my 67 build thread for how I changed out the torsion bar crossmember. I first temp welded some 2" box steel across the front framerails from below the rails, and tack welded it to the bottom of the rockers this keeps the rails square. Then I peeled out the main floor pan.
Fix any rust issues in the rocker panels, weld in a new or used and rust free torsion bar crossmember, then install your new main floor pan. Butt the crossmember to the front framerails if your changing them out, and just temp screw it to the front framerails from the underside with self tapping screws this locates it where it needs to be Ditto with floorplan to front rails. You just zip the self tapping screws back out when you go and change the rails out.
I have seen guys change the whole front stub on these cars with a rust free one. At this point where I mentioned you would be, with new transition pan, torsion bar crossmember, and main floor installed installing an entire front stub would be the easiest way to fix the front clip. A front stub is essentially both frame rails. Inner fender wells upper and lower radiator supports in one unit removed from another car. It slides in place framerails you temp self tap screw to the floorplan, torsion bar crossmember, and inner fender wells to fire wall flanges. Jack and level. Temp install hood, doors fenders, and install bare stripped out K frame to be sure its squared up before welding it on. Dont forget to temp install that K frame. That is critical to framerail spacing. Once your sure its square and ready to weld, wire weld it together.
This part is super important !!!!!!! Once installed you remove your upper radiator support from the old barracuda front clip and weld it into the new clip. It has your VIN partial stamped in it. The last 8 digits stamped in it match your dash vin. If your LH inner fender well has its data plate, remove that as well and reinstall it into the new inner fender well. Dont lose these pieces!!!!!!!!! Too many people lose this stuff all the time.
Already have a complete front clip (torsion support, rails, inner fenders, rad support) and have the upper rad support out of the Cuda.
What I'm worried about, is the drivers side a-pillar. Pretty far gone on the bottom, and a big hole on top around where it makes the bend by the dash. I think I should get that fixed before tearing out the floor-rails-torsion support. I see they repop the bottom.. not sure if I should do that and piece in the top, or find a complete donor piece. I'll get a pic up.. need to take a break from replacing the water pump in my '84 Winnebago (chev 545) anyway.. damn thing.
moparmat2000
Well-Known Member
You can also buy some 1" square thin wall tubing and brace up the car before removing that A pillar or just to stiffen it up before doing the floor. That A pillar area is the same on all darts, and valiants that are a 2 door hardtop from 67-76 easy part to get off any parts car out there.
Thanks! I had planned on bracing the crap out of it before I start tearing parts out. I was wondering if those pillars were all pretty close, thanks for answering that.
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