Intake Leaking Oil

-

bobscuda67

Well-Known Member
Joined
Aug 27, 2005
Messages
2,117
Reaction score
392
Location
Michigan
I have a 340 that's sucking oil out of the lifter valley and I thought I had it fixed last fall.
It started burning oil last September again so I just tore it apart, for the 6th. time, and let it set over the winter. I got to looking at it now and measured it and the angles are off from the manifold to the head.
What do I do with this? I want to put it together one last time. I thought the gasket would have compensated but they only last for 100 miles or so.
 

Attachments

  • 001 (800x600).jpg
    34.1 KB · Views: 477
  • 009 (800x600).jpg
    42.4 KB · Views: 451
  • 008 (800x600).jpg
    45.4 KB · Views: 443
  • 007 (800x600).jpg
    37.9 KB · Views: 431
  • 006 (800x600).jpg
    42.3 KB · Views: 446
  • 005 (800x600).jpg
    38.8 KB · Views: 459
  • 004 (800x600).jpg
    46.3 KB · Views: 489
  • 002 (800x600).jpg
    36.3 KB · Views: 475
I can't honestly believe that tiny bit of a difference is causing it. But gotta start somewhere I guess.

The one thing that does make me think is the polished surface of the head, it looks pretty doggone smooth. Perhaps the gasket has nothing to "bite" to.

Just spitballing here.
 
I think the angles are fine, slightly tighter at the bottom. do not use the front and rear gaskets, what gaskets/adhesives are u using. is the pcv sucking oil, like from a non baffled valve cover
 
6 times? Id be looking somewhere else. Unless youre using the thin steel gaskets, pitch those. Felpros will seal that easy. Mine are/were off more than that on assy day 10 years ago.
 
agreed no gasket front or back There's and epoxy called" the right stuff". you might want to look into the extra thick gaskets as your aluminum intake will obviously expand and contract at different intervals than your cast iron heads if that's the case. and don't forget to retighten after you warm the car up and let it cool off.
 
Pull out the dowel pins in the block for the valley gaskets, some aftermarket manifolds don't have the holes in them to accommodate the dowels, the manifold is probably bottoming out before it's sealing.
 
Are you putting sealer on the intake bolts? Oil will pool in the intake valleys if you don't.
 
X2 on the losing the front and rear gaskets. If you don't have a pcv you should consider it. Mine plugged and the pressure blew my intake. The only gasket maker we use at our shop is from GM. It's a grey gasket maker and it never leaks.
 
...............As said the front and rear roll pins in the center of the rails is not letting ur manifold sit low enough to seal properly.....is there marks on ur intake where the pins r hitting it?....factory intakes have a recess in them to accommodate the pins......kim.....
 
pull out the dowel pins in the block for the valley gaskets, some aftermarket manifolds don't have the holes in them to accommodate the dowels, the manifold is probably bottoming out before it's sealing.


^^^^^ THIS ^^^^^

now - manifold may have been bent . !!
 
Thanks for all the responses guys.
The oil is being sucked through the bottom of the intake port. You can see it when I took it apart.
I tried Edelbrock Gasketsinch, Indianhead sealer,even 3M weatherstrip adhesive.
The roll pins do not bottom out, the manifold sits down flat on the china wall without any gaskets.
The intake was milled .015 last summer so it's flat.
I used 6 different gasket sets last year. The ones that lasted longest were the ones I made myself. Not using the end gaskets, just RTV.
It has a functioning PCV valve.
I used teflon sealer paste on the intake bolts.
I did not try the Right Stuff sealer. Will have to look into that.
The head sealing surface is really smooth. When I had the chamber surface milled, it was made smooth enough for a MLS head gasket. The head's intake surface was milled at the same time. I could look into ruffing up that surface.
I tried .060 thick gaskets and .030 thick. The .030 lasted about 200 miles before it failed.
Maybe a thicker softer gasket?
Thanks and Happy Easter!
 
And a happy Easter to you.
How many ports are sucking? Is it always the same ones?
You say the manifold sits down flat on the china wall.Im gonna assume that you mean parallel to it but not touching it.Pictures of the gaskets showing the leaky areas would be nice.Im also gonna assume the intake was torqued in the correct sequence and to the correct spec.

I can think of 2 things I would be doing next; checking for rocking motion and claying the joints.
1) after cleaning everything up, and without gaskets I would drop the manifold into place. I would then attempt to rock it in various directions. There should not be any rocking. Heres where Im going; I heard that the heads and manifold were surfaced. Well sometimes the machine shop doesnt get it quite right. The angles can be perfect. Slightly more can be shaved off at one end than at the other. Then when you bolt the heads on, the angle can still be perfect, but the head is lower to the block at one end than at the other.Then when you go to bolt on an unmachined manifold, it has to twist to conform to the surfaces. Next, if the manifold is also machined more at one end than at the other it could aggravate the problem more. Remember that the angles could still be perfect and this could still happen. So the rocking test, although it cant prove this, it can very definitely point to it.
2)I would next clay the joints. I would brackleen the 4 corners of the heads right next to and on the outboard edges of the front and rear ports, and where the heads meet the intake fully from top to bottom, without passing through any voids. I would roll out some modelling clay into about 1/8 x 2 strings, and stick them on there. I would flip the intake upside down and apply a thin layer of slippery substance on the surfaces exactly where the clay is going to touch, so the clay wont stick to it. Then, again without gaskets, I would carefully, and gently set that intake into its final position.Once its down dont shift it.No need to shift it to where the bolts go in, as long as the clay is able to be flattened by the next step. The last step, then is to apply a goodly amount of pressure down onto the carb pad, to compress those clay strips.Pushing down on it from the rad area or the fenders wont do it. The pressure needs to come straight down from above. I would put an empty 5gallon pail on there and fill it full of water. At 10 lbs per gallon that should be enough. Ok so carefully get rid of that pail, and remove the intake. The clay should tell the story. To read it, cut about 1/4 inch off the ends with a razor blade, and remove the those blobs. Then you can see on the heads whats going on. Take a sheet of paper, and mark off 4 quadrants,orient it and mark it as to front/rear/sides. Start in one corner and measure with a caliper,the top and bottom thicknesses of the clay. Write down the two measurements;top and bottom. Repeat for every corner, and write it down. Then take a seat an analyze the results.
If everything was perfect the clays would all be the same thicknesses from top to bottom and corner to corner. In your case, I might expect 2 corners 180* from eachother to be very thin, and the remaining corners to be somewhat thicker. I would also expect differences in the measurements from top to bottom. If enough pressure was applied earlier then I would expect,and would hope for, some zeros or near zeros in there. In any case stare at the results for a while, then go look at the clay. In just a while, a picture will develop in your head, and I think you will see the issue.
If there is rocking, or proof of accumulative machining errors, I dont think there is a cheap fix.
You dont mention that the decks were machined. But if they were, that could also compound the error, again with the ends rising or falling.
So good luck.
 
All the ports on the right side were sucking a little oil. Number 3 is the worse. It's the port that the gasket fails on.
I set the intake on the engine without gaskets. The intake won't rock because it's seated flat on the china wall. In the pics I have two feeler gauges .015 thick that fit tight from top to bottom on the front and rear of the intake.
I will try some clay this week, it would tell a more accurate story than just using the feeler gauges. Thanks.
 

Attachments

  • Dad's Pictures 006 (800x600).jpg
    30.7 KB · Views: 330
  • Dad's Pictures 005 (800x600).jpg
    34.4 KB · Views: 352
  • Dad's Pictures 003 (800x600).jpg
    44.8 KB · Views: 334
  • Dad's Pictures 002 (800x600).jpg
    49.5 KB · Views: 326
  • Dad's Pictures 001 (800x600).jpg
    32.9 KB · Views: 347
I don't remember through all of this (and the other threads), but I got to thinking.

Is it possible that since everything has been milled, you are still using the same intake bolts?

If you are, they may be bottoming out and not torquing the intake like they should.
 
If that intake is tight to the china wall, that may be part of the issue as well. You might need a tad more removed from that area on the intake.
 
Absolutely the clearance to the china wall could be the issue. Theres no point in claying anything until that is clearanced.
Heres an new idea.
-With no gaskets, set the intake on the china wall. Slide it ll the way over to one side.The measure the clearance at the other side. Obviously you will need room for the gaskets in there, and a bit for gasket compression, and some to allow the manifold to be sealed to the wall. Then you have to use some trigonometry to figure out how much to shave off the manifold ends.Thats one way.
-Another way is to slide the proposed gaskets in their places, and just measure the clearance between the china wall and the manifold rails.No trig; me likey. Now it may be that you have some clearance there when things get torqued down. COLD.But what happens when the engine heats up?
But for me the biggest issue is that you cant prove a rocking motion or clay the clearances until that intake is up off the wall.
-There is one other thing that you could try; Again without gaskets, bolt one side up to one head only. Then check the clearances at the opposite side;top to bottom. If the gap is not the same top to bottom, thats a bit of trouble. But a bigger problem is if the front and rear are not about the same. So if they are not the same,loosen the manifild a tad, just enough to lift a front or rear corner on the bolted side and retighten it. Then recheck the clearances. If worse lift the opposite corner and try again.For this test to work the end rails have to be up off the china walls at all times. I think this test is actually a pretty good one, and might give better/easier results than the earlier tests.If the rails cant be kept off the walls, you could try putting just one gasket in on the bolted side.
- I find it odd that #3, the second port on the drivers side( actually called the left side)is the recurring leaky one.Machining error stack up, leading to a twisted manifold I imagine should surely lead to leaking end ports. With #3 leaking, I would rather expect that to be a low spot, which would lead to suspect machining; either on the head or the intake.I would be checking the intake on a surface plate and laying the straightedge over the ports. Ima thinking youre gonna find the problem there PDQ.
-I would still be taking some off the rails though, and at least do the rocking test.You could have multiple problems.
BTW;This would be a good opportunity to machine for the cork endseals.I know some/lots of guys recommend ditching them, but they have always worked for me, and clean up is waaaay easier.
 
........I don't believe any intake I've installed ever sat right down onto the end rails of the block with out gaskets.....do u have to lift the intake up to get the bolts in?......kim.......
 
I can see the problem in your pic. You need to have the bottom of the intake milled as it is sitting flush and has a gap at the intake sides.
 
I chased the head bolt holes and cleaned the bolts. Everything is ok.
Removed the roll pins.
I don't have any gaskets yet but I used some pieces of .060 thick material to get the intake up off the end rail walls. Measuring from the top of the wall to the bottom of the intake it was:
Right front- .052
Left front-.028
Right rear-.042
Left rear-.024
It does has a very little rock back and forth. I also noticed that when I took the intake off I loosened all the left side bolts first and the right side bolts were loose. So the intake shifted.
If I'm thinking about this right, that means the top of the intake port has more clearance
than the bottom, but it's leaking at the bottom of the port and not the top. Seem's like it would be the other way around.
 

Attachments

  • Dad's Pictures 001 (800x600).jpg
    55.7 KB · Views: 327
  • Dad's Pictures 003 (800x600).jpg
    43.3 KB · Views: 336
  • Dad's Pictures 004 (800x600).jpg
    44.7 KB · Views: 321
  • Dad's Pictures 005 (800x600).jpg
    49.8 KB · Views: 308
I agree clearly the port surfaces have been over machined , I have had intake problems the past year and have found the Felpro performance gaskets squish out over time in my case , they are a little too big on the upper edge and interfere with the valve covers , the lip of the valve cover pushing on the gasket caused 1 problem and the gaskets themselves caused another by squishing out the top corners of the ports , If this is an Edelbrock intake buy the Edelbrock gasket it is cheaper than the FelPro Performance series { thick black } gasket and fits the intake and ports better than the FelPro unit , do not use the FelPro Blue Perma Torque gasket on an Edelbrock intake as per Edelbrocks instructions .
 
No what it means is neither side will seal properly if the bolts are tightened in a perfectly equal fashion and since thats not going to happen you are going to get a bad bank depending on which side gets pulled first the intake must have room to suck down without bottoming on the rail but as Kimmer said you are probably going to have to lift the intake to get the bolts in if you clearance the ends to allow this to happen so it sounds like you need a new intake to me .
 
I see from your pics it is a Mopar Aluminum intake but in any case I still think it has been over machined and will need replacing .

PS The Right Stuff is a RTV style sealant not an epoxy as stated earlier, it is used and approved by all the major automakers , since OldKimmer turned me on to it I don't use anything else on any surface that won't contact gas .
 
bobs
You did things a little differently than what I had in mind, and I think you made a good observation. But its not telling us what we really need to know. But I think we can work with your idea.
Heres what I would do;
Instead of putting 4 shims in there, put in only three. Then measure the manifold to head clearance at the open corner. Then repeat at each remaining corner. For this test to be useful the manifold will need to be pressed over hard away from the measuring side, but not downwards

Oh wait I just had a better idea, Put one shim in each corner on the same head. Then put one shim in at, thats at,not in, the EGR port, in such a way that the shim is separating the intake from the head in the same manner as the rest are. Press down hard at the carb pad. Maybe use a heavy weight. See youve created a tripod under there. Now measure the two open corners. Then repeat this on the other side. You will have 4 numbers that should theoretically all be the same. The measurements may/will change from the bottom to the top of the slots(as viewed from the ends of the heads), so you could average them out or just try to measure them halfway up/down the slot.
BTW, do you know the thickness of your headgaskets.
 
Are you using the same bolts?? Like I mentioned earlier, if you are, they quite possibly are bottoming out before enough torque can be applied to seal.


I chased the head bolt holes and cleaned the bolts. Everything is ok.

Everything may seem OK, until it's time to torque the intake. Again, it's been milled. If those bolts are bottoming out without being able to pull the intake to the head, it ain't gonna seal.


If I'm thinking about this right, that means the top of the intake port has more clearance
than the bottom, but it's leaking at the bottom of the port and not the top. Seem's like it would be the other way around.

Again, the intake is resting on the china wall, it has to have some clearance. Remember the pictures I posted before in your other thread (factory heads and an unmolested LD340 intake), there was 3/16's of an inch between the wall and the bottom of the intake without gaskets--5/16" with gasket just resting there.


Here is what I would do. Install a couple of bolts on both heads and snug them down (not so tight as to crack anything on the head), measure the distance between the underside of bolt head to the head surface. Now measure the thickness of the intake in those same locations and compare.

Next, I would have some of the intake milled off on each end so the is a small gap between the intake and the china wall. This will allow it to cinch down on the gas kets when you torque it down.

If it's leaking on the bottom of the ports, there isn't enough pressure there to seal it, because of the bolts not pulling the intake down enough OR the intake can't come down enough due to it hitting and bottoming out.

OR BOTH.
 
-
Back
Top