Yup. It's the same as trying to get people to understand how important diagnosis is. They don't care. They just want it NOW. Same principle. Real racers though, know how important details are and will hunt for all the little things. Like you do.
Is there ever "never any more" ???
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To me, 550-600 hp can be bought by just about everyone here if they had the mind to. 400 block, 512 stroker kit from 440 source, trick flow heads or RPM's or whatever, solid roller cam and yatty yatty yatty. And I understand why they do it. But to me the fun is trying to work with an engine, be it 512 cubes roller or 273 cubes stock, and get more... and more... and just a little more... then a eetsy teenie bit more...
LOL
I love tuning on junk or very budget minded builds to make them run the best they can. Obviously, since I'm a slant guy. It ain't like I got a lot to work with. lolTo me, 550-600 hp can be bought by just about everyone here if they had the mind to. 400 block, 512 stroker kit from 440 source, trick flow heads or RPM's or whatever, solid roller cam and yatty yatty yatty. And I understand why they do it. But to me the fun is trying to work with an engine, be it 512 cubes roller or 273 cubes stock, and get more... and more... and just a little more... then a eetsy teenie bit more...
If you are staying with the stock cam, it would be a stretch. The early Darts were not as light as you might think. Then again add a 4800 stall converter and 4.88 gears and radial slicks,,,,,,,,,,,,. Use an open spacer or whittle away on the intake dividers,,,,
Little tricks like ring spacers to allow very narrow rings, oil accumulator set up to allow the pan to run dry at half track,,,,,,
Blocked heat riser passages, best valve job and a little bowl porting, coat that intake on the valley side with some kind of heat barrier, research best intake gaskets for low heat transfer, ice the intake in the staging lanes, cold air duct, enough so far? Forgot to mention 1 5/8 to 1 3/4 step headers, i made 503 hp with them on a 408 build, went in a 65 Dart.
Just imagine the look and disbelief when you show someone a time slip and they hear that stock cam idle!
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Mr. Sinister
Devastation Manager/ Exposer of Lies
Class car racing, not super stock but stock.To me, 550-600 hp can be bought by just about everyone here if they had the mind to. 400 block, 512 stroker kit from 440 source, trick flow heads or RPM's or whatever, solid roller cam and yatty yatty yatty. And I understand why they do it. But to me the fun is trying to work with an engine, be it 512 cubes roller or 273 cubes stock, and get more... and more... and just a little more... then a eetsy teenie bit more...
Kendog 170
Let the boy go !
I think you need to go camping.
SSG_Karg
Enhanced member
In my opinion, the farther down the rabbit hole you get the harder it is to find those tenths or couple of horsepower. It’s relatively easy to get a combo to run “good” but once you get to that point it’s difficult to notice if small changes made a positive impact or not unless you have a lot of time to spend at the strip or a dyno. You could make a jetting change that picks up 2 hp but you won’t feel that in the seat of your pants so you assume it’s good and stop there even though it could potentially want even more jet. I think that’s where most guys stop and most combos are never maxed out.
Absolutely correct, and why most won't take the time. But the reward and fun is unmatched. I remember years back we worked with a slant six in a '72 Duster. Using all stock slant components but the added 2bbl from a super six. At first, my '91 3.3 V6 Dynasty smoked it bad. But by nothing else but tuning, this slant ended up smoking the Dynasty real bad. By many car lengths in the "marked off 1/4 out of town". The Dynasty ran 17.27 at the strip. Though the Duster never made it to the track to get an ET slip, I'd guess it minimum of low 16's but maybe high 15's more realistic. We probably tuned 1.5 - 2 full seconds out of a "good running slant six".
And what did this entail? ^^^
Here are some of the trip/rabbit holes we went down....
- We had lots of BBD's, comparing venturi sizes, metering rod sizes and steps, filing the metering rods by hand, drilling the main jets, etc.
- Intakes - not all super six intakes are equal. We found by comparison a heavy cast intake that had the best runners and performed the car the best.
- exhaust. Wow, you'd be amazed at the differences in these castings. We found them dramatic in exhaust hole size. We ended up with one about a true 2", then opened it up another 1/8 all the way around and used a 2.25 head pipe. That made a difference.
This is what I kind of don't get from some of the members here especially the ones that are building 1st or near 1st muscle/performance car, they buy a stockish car and instead of taking it on a modification journey to a 13-10 second car they just want to jump straight there.
A lot of people just take a plane now, traveling across Iowa and Nebraska isn't for them so to speak. But for me, I usually find the trip better than the destination.
This thread reminds me of Warren Johnson, years ago, testing belts to drive a pump on his race car. An observer said, whats the best you can gain? A 1/4 hp? Johnsons reply, maybe, but if i do one hundred things looking for a 1/4 hp, i have gained 25! Nuff said!
BVoelzke
Well-Known Member
Yes I ran Pro /Heavy eliminator or over 20 years in a Dart running mid 10s ( 10.40 best ) I spent money on a lot of go fast tricks I really didn't need , most of the parts are still in the car. When NHRA Division One lowered the E.T. range for the class to 9.00 awhile back I felt I couldn't be competitive running mid 10s in the class any longer. As a matter of fact my last 408 R3/ Indy head motor had 9 second potential with a roller cam / compression change . I have raced my Dart for over 40 years and have always had the most success when running in the 11s so when the class changed I put on DOT tires and slowed the car down to run 11.50s in Street ( now Sportsman ) Eliminator and found instant success including winning a track championship. It was fun chasing lower E.T.s but it more fun to me to go rounds with a reliable strong combo. My current W2 head 410 c.i. combo is capable of running high tens on pump gas my e.t.s are changed by turning a throttle stop bolt. I am not even using the motors full potential leaving at 2,000 and shifting at 6,000 but its very consistent. I have lately gotten away from full .500 full tree racing and Sportsman Eliminator and am concentrating on .500 pro tree and 11.50 index racing and again I have been pretty successful. I run a 904 and an 8 3/4 with no breakage problems ( I footbrake ) many of my fellow class competitors run two steps and trans brakes I could also but I am competitive just as I am in my 60 ft and reaction times. My car would be even more competitive with a trans brake etc. but the cost and potential parts breakage just isn't worth it to me. I did get a lot of satisfaction when I finally got my 92 D150 p/u to run its first 14 second time slip with just weight reduction and simple bolt ons.
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As a racer, I certainly want the best et out of my combo. Like everyone else I'm sure! To do that, I would need to go to many TnT days at the track to sort little things out and see of they were + or -. But with fuel and costs factored in (probably a minimum of about $125 each outing), and since it's simple to change the number on the window (dial-in), I don't do it.
There's no way to do it on race day as you get 1 time run. Can't make any changes from that or the dial-on gets even messier! I look back on my records from when I raced my Charger in the 80's and early 90's and I would make lots of carb/timing/staging changes each time out. Typically then it was 3-4 time runs. Not so any more!
Now I just work to make the car consistent as I really enjoy the competition aspects as much/more than every last tenth. When we won the Sportsman bracket a week ago, the car ran between 11.07 and 11.10 over the 6 rounds it took. ET's basically followed the temps (except for the one oddball of an 11.12 in there that I have no explanation for).
I'll do changes between outings but generally not the day while at the track. And if you think about it, if I really wanted to go faster, it wouldn't take many TnT events to cost more than new go-fast engine/trans parts would cost. So I'm guilty as charged - I'd buy more parts before going to the TnT to beat on the car with no competition involved! (Plus the boss understands bracket racing all too well and says the shoe polish is a MUCH better value!
.)
There's no way to do it on race day as you get 1 time run. Can't make any changes from that or the dial-on gets even messier! I look back on my records from when I raced my Charger in the 80's and early 90's and I would make lots of carb/timing/staging changes each time out. Typically then it was 3-4 time runs. Not so any more!
Now I just work to make the car consistent as I really enjoy the competition aspects as much/more than every last tenth. When we won the Sportsman bracket a week ago, the car ran between 11.07 and 11.10 over the 6 rounds it took. ET's basically followed the temps (except for the one oddball of an 11.12 in there that I have no explanation for).
I'll do changes between outings but generally not the day while at the track. And if you think about it, if I really wanted to go faster, it wouldn't take many TnT events to cost more than new go-fast engine/trans parts would cost. So I'm guilty as charged - I'd buy more parts before going to the TnT to beat on the car with no competition involved! (Plus the boss understands bracket racing all too well and says the shoe polish is a MUCH better value!
.)
LOL.... shoe polish is cheaper for sureAs a racer, I certainly want the best et out of my combo. Like everyone else I'm sure! To do that, I would need to go to many TnT days at the track to sort little things out and see of they were + or -. But with fuel and costs factored in (probably a minimum of about $125 each outing), and since it's simple to change the number on the window (dial-in), I don't do it.
There's no way to do it on race day as you get 1 time run. Can't make any changes from that or the dial-on gets even messier! I look back on my records from when I raced my Charger in the 80's and early 90's and I would make lots of carb/timing/staging changes each time out. Typically then it was 3-4 time runs. Not so any more!
Now I just work to make the car consistent as I really enjoy the competition aspects as much/more than every last tenth. When we won the Sportsman bracket a week ago, the car ran between 11.07 and 11.10 over the 6 rounds it took. ET's basically followed the temps (except for the one oddball of an 11.12 in there that I have no explanation for).
I'll do changes between outings but generally not the day while at the track. And if you think about it, if I really wanted to go faster, it wouldn't take many TnT events to cost more than new go-fast engine/trans parts would cost. So I'm guilty as charged - I'd buy more parts before going to the TnT to beat on the car with no competition involved! (Plus the boss understands bracket racing all too well and says the shoe polish is a MUCH better value!
Bracket racers have consistency at the top, as they should. And the cost is real. I've had a lot of folks on my channel ask for me to make 1 change and take it to the strip before making another change. Problem is time and money. It cost me about 80 bucks and at least 5 hrs (at least) on a Saturday to make a pass. I wouldn't get anything done.
My problem is having too many cars. I simply do NOT chase the tune on all my classics. I have not the time. I've only really worked with the Duster, and there is a lot more tuning to do there.
1969reddart
or is it Copper...
Fun write up from your pal - Uncle Tony.
Cars Illustrated - 1986
Would be better in an A-body…
Cars Illustrated - 1986
Would be better in an A-body…
1969reddart
or is it Copper...
.
A 318 build AJ would be proud of
I'm sure you could write a book on the Duster.
I don't think that's possible for him.A 318 build AJ would be proud of
It would be titled "An exercise in insanity". Lol
ValiantRacing
Well-Known Member
I like going fast with the minimal, no fancy heads or big cubes.
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