Issue with kickdown using BPE cable kit

[CultClassik]

So last year I (for the first time) rebuilt this 904 using good parts, TF2 kit, BPE kickdown cable kit - since I was changing from a 273 2bbl to a 318 4bbl.

Anyway, the trans seems to work great, but it doesn't shift super hard that I can tell (I expected it to). I've been wondering about that, then the other day I put it in gear and the car wouldn't move, I had to get under the car and play with the throttle valve lever. I can't get a picture to turn out from under there, but if you move it by hand, the lever will go so far forward that the "hard" portion of the kickdown cable hits against the end of the lever. You can force it forward, but it messes up the cable. The throttle lever only goes on one way because of the flat section on the face of the rod it slides over.

It also seems that the spring from BPE won't pull the throttle valve lever forward, so it seems like this lever should be farther back and that would make the spring put enough tension on it to pull it forward. Does that make sense? I'm wondering if I mis-adjusted something in the valve body perhaps?

 

[fishy68]

I doubt you mis adjusted the throttle pressure valve as it only has one adjustment and is locnut'd in place so no one usually even touches it. JFYI the farther the lever is pulled back the firmer the shifts will be. As for the spring pulling the lever all the way forward it's not always necessary unless it's winding out too tight when it shifts. Try adjusting the cable so that when you floor the carb the lever is pulled all the way or close to all the way back. Test drive it and see if it shifts at the correct speeds (your preference). As for it not wanting to move there is a constant issue with torqueflite converters draining back when setting. When you start it up immediately put it in neutral and it'll fill the converter (it doesn't fill in park) and that should eliminate the sluggish or no go issue.

 

[CultClassik]

That's what I figured, harder shifts when pulled back. I'll look into the neutral thing, but I'm not sure that's what it was. Doesn't the manual valve with the TF2 change that behavior?

Also though...if you pull the throttle valve lever all the way back with your hand, the spring will not pull it forward. At all. That can't be right, can it? Oh, and yes I had the cable adjusted to be pulled all the way at WOT. I'll have to get under the car to confirm, that was just done with me pulling on the cable from above while adjusting.

 

[74DartSwinger360]

Change to a 5:1 Shift lever and have a real nice hard shift especially 1st to 2nd

 

[fishy68]

That's what I figured, harder shifts when pulled back. I'll look into the neutral thing, but I'm not sure that's what it was. Doesn't the manual valve with the TF2 change that behavior?

Also though...if you pull the throttle valve lever all the way back with your hand, the spring will not pull it forward. At all. That can't be right, can it? Oh, and yes I had the cable adjusted to be pulled all the way at WOT. I'll have to get under the car to confirm, that was just done with me pulling on the cable from above while adjusting.

The new manual valve with the kit along with a hole drilled in the valve body is supposed to fill the converter in park but it does it at such a slow rate it's almost like nothing at all. If I start mine and leave it in drive I noticed I have to give it 4-5 minutes before the converter is full and will pull.

That is odd that it's not returning. The throttle valve has a internal spring that kicks it back automatically. I wonder if the cable is sticking?

 

[fishy68]

Change to a 5:1 Shift lever and have a real nice hard shift especially 1st to 2nd

Yes installing a 5.0 lever can make the 1-2 shift firmer (as long as the rear servo releases real fast) but it may also cause it to overlap (bind up) on the 2-3 shift. Personally I wouldn't give you .01$ for a 5.0 lever. Taken too many out of transmissions that guys installed that caused problems, even to the point of burning up the high clutches. A 3.8 lever will generally give you a plenty firm shift without causing bind up.

 

[CultClassik]

This one has a 4.2 lever so I kept that one.

Now...I just re-adjusted everything. I'm also having problems getting my throttle cable adjusted so that it will open the carb completely. I thought the car was slower than it is until I figured that out.

Anyway, I adjusted the kickdown so that the lever is all the way back at WOT. I drove it around the block, seemed the same. The 3rd turn I took, bam, no gear. Pulled over, shoved the lever back and it worked again. Actually seems like it's not going either direction very well, but it seems to move fine by hand (except that the lever seems to move too far forward. I'll look thru the FSM, see if I can remember anything that might have caused this. My first trans rebuild if you'll remember, I did have to drop the VB once already to fix a blunder of my own.

Something else I noticed, if you're stopped in drive and punch it, it doesn't seem to get full power and may be shifting too quick into 2nd. Manual shifting does work thanks to the TF2, and after I had pulled over, I put it in first and punched it. Lit the tires up and went sideways, so something is working pretty good, but something else isn't....hah.

 

[BRONZEBEE]

If your using the cable style t.v recheck all the brackets that hold the cable,they are made to thin in my opinion flex a lot.
Have some one push on the throttle while you look at the movements on the cable for binding.
I would also check the e-clip on the shift linkage under the t.v lever to see if its still there.If it pops off the linkage drops and doesn't move the t.v correctly.

 

[fishy68]

The 4.2 lever is good.

So your saying your losing all forward gears until you push the lever back? That isn't right. You are talking about the throttle pressure lever, right? Not the shift lever?

You need to get the throttle linkage issue worked out before you do the trans. throttle pressure cable adjustment. That could be part of your problem.

Shifting too quickly into the next gear is a common problem even when you have the cable adjusted right. IMO what's happening is shift kits raise the line pressure which in turn raises the governor pressure making it shift quicker. The only easy solution is to install a higher shift point governor.

What was the other issue you had to fix in the valve body?

 

[CultClassik]

Damn I just typed a big reply and it didn't post it...here goes again, shorter version.

Accelerator cable is adjusted fine now. Difficult to do because it's on the same bolt as the kickdown cable. I made a bracket by copying one in the BPE pics, one they no longer or never did make, because I didn't want their giant super adjustable thing hanging off my carb.

Yes, no forward gears, stop, put in park, play with the pressure lever NOT shifter, it works again.

THe other issue was I didn't install the manual valve correctly, if memory serves the rooster comb wasn't making proper contact with it so it wouldn't shift or do anything. Simple fix and stupid mistake but unrelated.

 

[fishy68]

OK. The no forward motion issue is what worries me as the throttle pressure, even if it were way out of adjustment, should never stop the car from moving. Does it still have reverse when lose forward? Or does it lose everything?

Also, when you corrected the manual valve issue did you adjust it according to the trans-go instructions? The valve body needs to be taken apart to do so.

 

[CultClassik]

I'm thinking it loses reverse also.

Not sure on the adjustment. It's been so many months now, my memory is failing me. I'll look at the adjustment procedure and see if that rings a bell.

 

[fishy68]

I'm thinking it loses reverse also.

Not sure on the adjustment. It's been so many months now, my memory is failing me. I'll look at the adjustment procedure and see if that rings a bell.

Humm... That's not good if it's losing everything. Next time it happens try it to make sure.

The adjustment is where you have to bend the rooster comb a little (if needed) so the manual valve just enters a certain partition that they show.

 

[BRONZEBEE]

I think you need to drop the pan and have a look at your linkage in side.
I have see them miss the groove in the manual valve,when it does work do you have manual low?
sounds to me that the foot of the rooster comb is in the wrong spot.

 

[wjajr]

Mplex2000:
Accelerator cable is adjusted fine now. Difficult to do because it's on the same bolt as the kickdown cable
Throttle pressure or kick-down cable hooked to same bolt? Are you referring to the clamp that secures both cables to bracket, or where cables attach to throttle lever on carburetor?

Using a BPE universal cable bracket which is similar to a factory bracket, and their throttle pressure cable (basically a stock part used on later vehicles) allows for fine tuning once clamped by depressing a button at carburetor end of cable.

The pull travel of kick-down cable must be in proportion to the throttle cable travel or shift quality will suffer. BPE includes a correct throttle pressure cam that attaches to top of shift shaft on outside of transmission and requires use of Chrysler throttle shaft adapter to make both throttle and transmission play well together.

If you are using a hodge-podge of parts it can be difficult to synchronize them to allow proper shifting. Also, if driven with improper throttle pressure you may have damaged front clutch pack from low internal pressure that makes for soft shifts.

Another place to look for problems unrelated to above cable issues is leaking valve body caused from not being properly torqued to transmission allowing internal leaks. This condition will cause all kinds of problems that don’t make sense using diagnostic chart in service manual.

 

[CultClassik]

Mplex2000:
Accelerator cable is adjusted fine now. Difficult to do because it's on the same bolt as the kickdown cable
Throttle pressure or kick-down cable hooked to same bolt? Are you referring to the clamp that secures both cables to bracket, or where cables attach to throttle lever on carburetor?

--- Yes, I'll take a picture of my bracket (this is on the carb end), but it uses the factory clamp piece to hold the throttle cable on top and the kickdown cable on bottom, like BPE's brackets do. I'm going to change this, because when you adjust one, you mess up the other. Poor design IMO, each cable would be better off with their own clamp.

Using a BPE universal cable bracket which is similar to a factory bracket, and their throttle pressure cable (basically a stock part used on later vehicles) allows for fine tuning once clamped by depressing a button at carburetor end of cable.

The pull travel of kick-down cable must be in proportion to the throttle cable travel or shift quality will suffer. BPE includes a correct throttle pressure cam that attaches to top of shift shaft on outside of transmission and requires use of Chrysler throttle shaft adapter to make both throttle and transmission play well together.

--- Right, that's all in place since I'm using the BPE kit.

If you are using a hodge-podge of parts it can be difficult to synchronize them to allow proper shifting. Also, if driven with improper throttle pressure you may have damaged front clutch pack from low internal pressure that makes for soft shifts.

--- It's a hodge-podge only in the sense that I'm using the BPE kickdown cable kit, the factory throttle cable, and my own custom bracket for the two of them. It's the same thing as running the BPE kit and their bracket, or the factory bracket, etc. Don't get me wrong, it shifts firm and quick but it's not barking tires or anything.

Another place to look for problems unrelated to above cable issues is leaking valve body caused from not being properly torqued to transmission allowing internal leaks. This condition will cause all kinds of problems that don’t make sense using diagnostic chart in service manual.


--- This will be my last resort, hopefully it doesn't come to that :icon_smi:

Fishy and Bronze..I may have to have a look at that. It DOES lose reverse, as it did this yesterday. It will work fine for weeks and weeks but if I mess with the kickdown cable adjustment (or the throttle, and inadvertently change the kickdown adjustment) that's the only time it gives me grief. I'm going to fab a new bracket with separate clamp/adjustment for each cable and go from there, we'll see what happens!

 

[CultClassik]

I keep forgetting to post pics but I welded up the new bracket, much easier to adjust each cable now.

Anyway, now that I drive it again, I realize it does have some odd behavior. There's a delay from when you shift into R or D (or 1, etc). The 1-2 shift seems ok, but 2-3 seems to slip a bit. It hasn't done the weird total loss of gear again yet.

I'm going to drop the pan and valve body so I can take a look. Any thoughts on what I should be looking out for? I'm guessing for one that the intermediate band may need adjustment, anything else?

 

[fishy68]

The delay when shifting into gear is probably torque converter drain back. When it sets for a while the converter drains back and since fluid bypasses in park it doesn't start filling the converter until you shift out of park. From now on put it in neutral and let it idle for 30 seconds and I bet you won't have that issue.

As for slipping going into 3rd, a front band adjustment is probably a good idea but I doubt it'll help since the front band is for 2nd gear. I'd try adjusting the throttle pressure cable a little tighter. The throttle pressure regulates pressure to the clutch packs and servo's to "tell" it how firm to shift. The more throttle input, the higher the pressure so it doesn't slip when applying a lot of power and when it's adjusted too low it'll slip like you say. If you don't remedy it you WILL toast the front clutch pack and lose 3rd gear and reverse

 

[CultClassik]

Finally got around to dropping the pan. I saw right off the bat that my TV valve is bent. Not sure how/why/when that would have happened, but just a wild guess tells me that may be the cause of my issues. Wow.

EDIT - The plunger, not the actual valve.

 

[BRONZEBEE]

Glad to see you found it!

 

[CultClassik]

Actually...it's not bent. It had popped out a little and was cockeyed but it popped back in. That worries me even more. It might be ok if I just put it back on but I don't want to have to do this again. I've got a 727 here I just pulled the VB off of and am trying to compare the two, but the bracketry on the valves looks quite a bit different. We'll see when I get the VB out of the 904 if I can find anything to explain it.

 

[CultClassik]

Ok, now I'm certain of what the problem is. The throttle lever stop screw is missing. The 727 VB has a bracket that holds all that stuff, the 904 has a threaded hold for this screw. I'm not exactly sure how I managed to not put it back in AND not have it in my spare barts bin, but I sure feel stupid. I'm assuming this was allowing the valve plunger (and sleeve) to pop out, which I also assume doesn't allow ANY pressure to the clutches?

EDIT - Found it. Stuck to the magnet I put in the pan. LOL

 

[fishy68]

Glad you found the problem Mplex. Yes it's a wonder it had any pressure to the clutches and shifted right.

Hooray for magnets, LOL

 

[CultClassik]

No doubt!!

I was super nervous, but the pan is pretty clean, no serious chunks and fluid is nice and red.

I really must not have been paying attention, damn ADD...I think I completely forgot to adjust that stop screw, so without the nut tight it probably worked it's way out over time (I think I've only put about 40-50 miles on it but still).

I double checked the VB and also noticed that I should have used the small yellow spring on the convertor valve, I had left the original in there. Not sure what change that will make?

A few more things - should I just leave out the accum spring this time? I see people doing that, I think I put a new one in from the TF2 kit when I built it.

On line pressure adjustment, TF2 says to adjust until the spring seat piece is flush with the bracket, but FSM says something like 1-5/16" from the VB to the spring seat. What do you guys do on that?

Last, the TV pressure. Since I of course don't have Mopar's special tool to measure, I've seen a few different methods of adjusting that. One said 1/8" drill bit between the TV cam and the valve with the valve uncrompressed, others I think said to measure it compressed like the FSM does with the special tool....what are you guys doing on that one?

 

[BRONZEBEE]

If you used the TF2 you installed the blue spring in the pressure regulator valve,stick with what the directions say.The FSM is for stock valvebodys and the stock regulator spring.
I don't think you will notice any difference on the accumulator spring in or leave it out debate that you see a lot of.
I think the TF2 directions mention something about the throttle valve stop adjustment,if not look at a few pics on the FSM and take your best guess on the measurement.I don't think it is that fussy.