Leaking brakes, re-flare?

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standup303

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When I first got my 74 Dart Swinger with manual brakes, the brakes were awful. So replaced the master, distribution block from Mancini, all brake lines with Inline Tube, front rotors and pads with drilled/slotted, replaced front caliper seal, new shoes on rear and rebuilt drums….. and the brakes felt the exact same, except now the distribution block leaks, yay!

I could not tell which line was leaking before I took them all apart. I was expecting to see a flare smashed in the dist. Block sideways but all look ok. I had them cranked in there with a line wrench too.

What should I do? Cut and reflare all the lines? Get new lines, again? I have attached pics in case someone with more experience sees something off.

DA6D3138-DAE4-4E22-9391-7654AFB04970.jpeg


A70C0976-F624-488F-AF44-82E47E67AAB3.jpeg


FC32A4B5-48D1-48D7-AA3A-68FBEC7A9E39.jpeg


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34CEC2AB-6C99-4A04-AEC6-080F09D49C1C.jpeg


53622853-2577-4A26-BBAD-28B917850D54.jpeg
 
Anneal the ends fast then tighten them should work. Sometimes they are just stubborn.
 
Are they stainless? Have heard about some sealing issues because of the hardness. Make sure to use a flare wrench as not to round off the fittings.

Did you replace anything on the proportioning valve? The copper ring under the bug adapter have been known to leak as well.
 
Common issue. A quick search for "leaking proportioning valve" on this site turns up three pages of results. Most every one comes up with one of two solutions: either rebuild the stock unit, or use copper flare washers (which may need to be annealed before use) at the connections.
When installing a new one, it doesn't hurt to disassemble it and clean it out- they have been known to contain residual machining debris. After installing and doing a preliminary bleeding, make sure you give the pedal a couple of sharp stabs to re-center the piston in the bore- they can hang up all the way to one side, which will make your brakes work like s***, and prevent you from being able to properly bleed out the remainder of the system.
 
I would call in line and show them the photos and get their reaction to the situation.

As noted above SS lines have a reputation of not sealing well.


Everything looks a bit dirty, was it all clean before assy?
 
There should not be any brake fluid in the switch cavity (pink)

There is a bypass port if the rear has pressure but the front does not but it should only come in to play of the fronts have no pressure. (Yellow note)

The piston can only move enough to contact the switch and does not block any ports.

If the switch is not grounded without the brake being applied and not grounded when you apply the brakes then it is either frozen in the middle or functioning properly.



Screenshot_20230413-072915.png

As for leaks, have you pinpointed the location to a specific point or a generalized location.
 
Just found a new tool! Someone makes a flare "dresser". It is a kit looking somewhat like a flaring tool, only the "cone" part of the tool is a diamond cutter and is used to dress the inside flare. Shop bought it to dress the inside flare on SS lines. If needed, I will get more info.
 
As for the "feel" of the brakes;
when you step on the brake pedal,
is the pedal high and hard? and does it remain hard?
If yes, then you do NOT have a hydraulic problem (besides slow leaks).
But
> If the pedal slowly drops, with no external leaks; then you have an internal problem in the M/C.
> If the pedal is low, give it a few quick stabs, then;
if the pedal comes up and is now hard, then you have one of two issues, either;
1) the rear brakes need adjusting, or
2) you have a mechanical fitment issue such as bent brake pads, oval drums, thin drums, squishy hoses, flexing calipers, or pads bent or not installed parallel to the rotors
But
if the pedal does not come up; most likely, the Compensating Port is not working. This port is in the M/C and the position of the piston that controls the working of it, is set by the length of the pushrod.
>If the system is working perfectly, including the pads contacting the rotors over their entire face; but the stopping distance is poor, the culprits might be, in order of likelihood;
1) the rear-shoes are not conforming to the drums
2) the friction material on your pads
3) It could be a pressure problem; and that is controlled by the size differential of the M/C bore to the caliper bore, or
4) it could be a pedal-ratio problem.
5) or, I suppose, it could it be the power of your brake-leg.
To find out which it is, you would have to rule them out one atta time

BTW
as to plumbing ;
the rear-most port on the M/C goes to the front brakes, via the end-port on the Combination Valve, which then splits left/right.
The front and rear braking systems are kept separated inside the Combination Valve. During operation, if one end experiences a sudden loss of fluid, there is a little shuttle valve inside the valve that moves towards the leaking end and turns the light on, on the dash.
<If the rear has failed, the rear-most split power-piston inside the M/C will move further on down the line than usual, until it hits the back of the front-most piston. It will then mechanically shove that front piston all the way to the bottom of the bore, where it will stay and shut off the fluid to the rear brakes. Then the rear-most piston will begin pushing fluid out to the calipers. The result of this, is a pedal that seems to go almost to the floor before anything happens.
But that is not all; when the brake pedal returns to it's upper, parking-stop, the inter-piston cavity is now much larger, and it has to be re-filled ..... thru the compensating port(s). and to do that, the pedal has to return all the way to the top, and to simultaneously PULL the rear-most piston back up. .... which means the pushrod has to be captured in the socket provided for that.
< if the front brake system has failed; the Rear-most piston again heads towards the front, same as usual, operating thru the hydraulic connection and the rear brakes do all the work. Two things manifest;
1) the rear brakes are only designed to do about 15% of the braking, so they are totally inadequate for flying solo. The stopping distance will be much increased, and it will take a lotta pedal pressure to achieve it. and
2) every time you step on the parked pedal, the rear-most piston may pump fluid out the leak, and eventually the reservoir will run dry. To mitigate this, you can just not let the pedal park, while you make your way to the repair shop.
But
from what I remember when I rebuilt my Combination valve, with the shuttle valve moved to either end of it's travel, that action also shut off the fluid flow from the M/C, to that end
3) remember, the front brakes are mathematically designed and hydraulically assisted to do 85% or more of the braking. The front hydraulic system has to receive 100% of the hydraulic pressure that your M/C is capable of generating at any one time, by your leg muscles, multiplied by the pedal ratio. This pressure can be as high as 1000 or more psi. But it all depends on the strength of your muscles. To make it easier on your leg, install a brake booster. They can easily multiply your leg-power in the range of, I'm guessing, 5>7 times.
The rear brakes are more or less just the automatic back-up emergency system....... altho it doesn't absolutely have to be this way.

The high and hard pedal is the desired end-goal, with a fully-functioning compensating port system, and the shuttle centered in the Combination Valve.

BTW-3
One of my favorite tests it to remove the calipers and shoes, then C-clamp all the pistons into their respective bores. Now step on the pedal which should almost instantly be ..... high and hard; and stabbing the pedal multiple times should make zero difference. A bit extreme? Well at 100 bucks an hour, I like to get to the bottom of things as quickly as possible, and this test can save a great deal of time spent in frustration. This test when it passes, completely exonerates the hydraulic system.
BTW-4
New shoes in machined drums, do not usually conform to them. If you look, they usually touch in only a tiny patch, close to the centers. Because of this, when the car is stopped, with brakes applied, those patches will force the drum to go oval and this then makes the drums act, like big powerful springs.
Firstly; This requires extra pedal-travel, with multiple stabs to achieve a somewhat hard pedal. and secondly during use, those little patches don't do much except act like expansion chambers to the front brakes, delaying and reducing their effectiveness.
If you see/experience this, you have two choices;
1) take your drums and shoes to an old-time brake shop and have the shoes cam-ground to fit the drums, or
2) get new un-machined drums, that may fit the shoes better ...... or not, you still gotta check them......
BTW-5
there are two flavors of shoes, those with long linings and those with short linings. The shorties go to towards the front of the car. This is for two reasons;
1) brake-drum systems are self energizing and the rear shoes do more work than the front, and so for equal life, the rear-most linings need to be a lil longer. and
2) if you reverse them, the long shoes, now on the front, will try to do the work, fail, and in the failing will reduce the effectiveness and life of the short shoes.
BTW-6
the parking brake strut that links the front and rear shoes, has to be relaxed otherwise rear brake action will be compromised. To relax it the Park-Brake System has to be adjusted. I know, I know; yur cables are probably seized. If they are, you need to fix that....... because sponginess in the rear brakes telegraphs into the effectiveness of the front brakes.
To test for this, just unhook the front cable from the splitter, then readjust the rear slack-adjusters to just tight enough to put a good drag on the drums. You may have to step on the pedal several times to center the shoes. Got High-hard pedal? BadaBoom!, fix the parking brake.
 
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is set by the length of the pushrod.
Not on manual brake cars.

The pedal has only its own weight to keep the mc pistons from pushing it back. The length of the pushrod only sets the pedal height.

In a power brake car the booster pushrod that is internal has a positive stop and if adjusted too long will not allow the mc pistons to return to their full off positions. too short and you will need additional pedal travel to activate the mc
 
I bought a new distribution block from inline tube and after the third block they sent me leaked I rebuilt my original block so if Mancini is selling inline tube distribution block's get your $ back and rebuild the original
 
Suggestion - After rounding off some of the chrome over brass Holley fuel lines, and have them still leak, I figured the friction between the threads were not allowing it to tighten as much as I needed.
I put Teflon tape on the flare nut threads to reduce friction, and succeeded in easily tightening them more, - sealing the leak without rounding the nut .
I have used same on stainless lines . (I will never use stainless again).
Remove all the tape visible, - cuz everone'll roast ya , "dontcha know flares don't use Teflon tape,- idiot".

Just smile .
 
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Got the same problem with stainless lines going into the rear center distribution block. Should have went back to stock steel. The parts are all Inline as well, may try a Dorman H86608 rear flex hose and block from them or copper flare gaskets. Thanks for the info members.
 
As for the "feel" of the brakes;
when you step on the brake pedal,
is the pedal high and hard? and does it remain hard?
If yes, then you do NOT have a hydraulic problem (besides slow leaks).
But
> If the pedal slowly drops, with no external leaks; then you have an internal problem in the M/C.
> If the pedal is low, give it a few quick stabs, then;
if the pedal comes up and is now hard, then you have one of two issues, either;
1) the rear brakes need adjusting, or
2) you have a mechanical fitment issue such as bent brake pads, oval drums, thin drums, squishy hoses, flexing calipers, or pads bent or not installed parallel to the rotors
But
if the pedal does not come up; most likely, the Compensating Port is not working. This port is in the M/C and the position of the piston that controls the working of it, is set by the length of the pushrod.
>If the system is working perfectly, including the pads contacting the rotors over their entire face; but the stopping distance is poor, the culprits might be, in order of likelihood;
1) the rear-shoes are not conforming to the drums
2) the friction material on your pads
3) It could be a pressure problem; and that is controlled by the size differential of the M/C bore to the caliper bore, or
4) it could be a pedal-ratio problem.
5) or, I suppose, it could it be the power of your brake-leg.
To find out which it is, you would have to rule them out one atta time

BTW
as to plumbing ;
the rear-most port on the M/C goes to the front brakes, via the end-port on the Combination Valve, which then splits left/right.
The front and rear braking systems are kept separated inside the Combination Valve. During operation, if one end experiences a sudden loss of fluid, there is a little shuttle valve inside the valve that moves towards the leaking end and turns the light on, on the dash.
<If the rear has failed, the rear-most split power-piston inside the M/C will move further on down the line than usual, until it hits the back of the front-most piston. It will then mechanically shove that front piston all the way to the bottom of the bore, where it will stay and shut off the fluid to the rear brakes. Then the rear-most piston will begin pushing fluid out to the calipers. The result of this, is a pedal that seems to go almost to the floor before anything happens.
But that is not all; when the brake pedal returns to it's upper, parking-stop, the inter-piston cavity is now much larger, and it has to be re-filled ..... thru the compensating port(s). and to do that, the pedal has to return all the way to the top, and to simultaneously PULL the rear-most piston back up. .... which means the pushrod has to be captured in the socket provided for that.
< if the front brake system has failed; the Rear-most piston again heads towards the front, same as usual, operating thru the hydraulic connection and the rear brakes do all the work. Two things manifest;
1) the rear brakes are only designed to do about 15% of the braking, so they are totally inadequate for flying solo. The stopping distance will be much increased, and it will take a lotta pedal pressure to achieve it. and
2) every time you step on the parked pedal, the rear-most piston may pump fluid out the leak, and eventually the reservoir will run dry. To mitigate this, you can just not let the pedal park, while you make your way to the repair shop.
But
from what I remember when I rebuilt my Combination valve, with the shuttle valve moved to either end of it's travel, that action also shut off the fluid flow from the M/C, to that end
3) remember, the front brakes are mathematically designed and hydraulically assisted to do 85% or more of the braking. The front hydraulic system has to receive 100% of the hydraulic pressure that your M/C is capable of generating at any one time, by your leg muscles, multiplied by the pedal ratio. This pressure can be as high as 1000 or more psi. But it all depends on the strength of your muscles. To make it easier on your leg, install a brake booster. They can easily multiply your leg-power in the range of, I'm guessing, 5>7 times.
The rear brakes are more or less just the automatic back-up emergency system....... altho it doesn't absolutely have to be this way.

The high and hard pedal is the desired end-goal, with a fully-functioning compensating port system, and the shuttle centered in the Combination Valve.

BTW-3
One of my favorite tests it to remove the calipers and shoes, then C-clamp all the pistons into their respective bores. Now step on the pedal which should almost instantly be ..... high and hard; and stabbing the pedal multiple times should make zero difference. A bit extreme? Well at 100 bucks an hour, I like to get to the bottom of things as quickly as possible, and this test can save a great deal of time spent in frustration. This test when it passes, completely exonerates the hydraulic system.
BTW-4
New shoes in machined drums, do not usually conform to them. If you look, they usually touch in only a tiny patch, close to the centers. Because of this, when the car is stopped, with brakes applied, those patches will force the drum to go oval and this then makes the drums act, like big powerful springs.
Firstly; This requires extra pedal-travel, with multiple stabs to achieve a somewhat hard pedal. and secondly during use, those little patches don't do much except act like expansion chambers to the front brakes, delaying and reducing their effectiveness.
If you see/experience this, you have two choices;
1) take your drums and shoes to an old-time brake shop and have the shoes cam-ground to fit the drums, or
2) get new un-machined drums, that may fit the shoes better ...... or not, you still gotta check them......
BTW-5
there are two flavors of shoes, those with long linings and those with short linings. The shorties go to towards the front of the car. This is for two reasons;
1) brake-drum systems are self energizing and the rear shoes do more work than the front, and so for equal life, the rear-most linings need to be a lil longer. and
2) if you reverse them, the long shoes, now on the front, will try to do the work, fail, and in the failing will reduce the effectiveness and life of the short shoes.
BTW-6
the parking brake strut that links the front and rear shoes, has to be relaxed otherwise rear brake action will be compromised. To relax it the Park-Brake System has to be adjusted. I know, I know; yur cables are probably seized. If they are, you need to fix that....... because sponginess in the rear brakes telegraphs into the effectiveness of the front brakes.
To test for this, just unhook the front cable from the splitter, then readjust the rear slack-adjusters to just tight enough to put a good drag on the drums. You may have to step on the pedal several times to center the shoes. Got High-hard pedal? BadaBoom!, fix the parking brake.
Wow excellent info thank you for posting all of that up. The pedal is hard and comes back just fine. It’s really just poor stopping distance. I did just roll with the cheap semi metallic pads. I adjusted the rear shoes but will have rear discs once the car is up and running again. So hopefully that helps.
 
I bought a new distribution block from inline tube and after the third block they sent me leaked I rebuilt my original block so if Mancini is selling inline tube distribution block's get your $ back and rebuild the original
I think I will rebuild my original. The OGs didn’t leak, I just wanted to go all new. Lesson learned there.
 
There should not be any brake fluid in the switch cavity (pink)

There is a bypass port if the rear has pressure but the front does not but it should only come in to play of the fronts have no pressure. (Yellow note)

The piston can only move enough to contact the switch and does not block any ports.

If the switch is not grounded without the brake being applied and not grounded when you apply the brakes then it is either frozen in the middle or functioning properly.



View attachment 1716077132
As for leaks, have you pinpointed the location to a specific point or a generalized location.
I was not able to pinpoint which line was leaking. I had the wife pump the brakes while I was watching the dist block and could not eat them to leak, go figure.
 
Thanks for posting all of the info.I am going to dig in more once I start getting this 8.8 rear in with discs as I’ll have to modify my stock Inline tube rear lines to fit. I will most likely give those copper washers a try and go back to the stock distribution block. And may even try out some EBC green stuff pads. I did look back at my order and the brake line kit from Inline does say OE steel.
 
I'm helping a friend go over this same deal right now. Between Speedway Motors crappy flares and the crappy brake he got from O'Reilly and flared himself, I think we're going to have to re flare all of it. It's all thanks to total chinkesium horse chit parts.
 
Is there somewhere to send original distribution valves to get them rebuilt. I just don't trust my brakes to my skill level...
 
Is there somewhere to send original distribution valves to get them rebuilt. I just don't trust my brakes to my skill level...
I've never used them, but this came up in a search.
 
and go back to the stock distribution block
IDK if it's a good idea to do that, because
the All-drum D-block, does not provide any rear brake proportioning.
If the rear brakes lock up in a hard pedal application, you will lose directional stability. It's been said that once the back-end is about 7* stepped out, with 4 same-sized tires, this pretty much guarantees a spin.
IDK how accurate that is, because not a chance would I ever run 4 same-sized tires on a hotrod.
But I can tell you that under modest power, 7* will do the same thing. 7* leads to 14* leads to 21* in rapid succession, and there is almost no chance to recover from that, unless you are on a wide-open parking lot, lol.
Our cars do not require a whole lot of braking on the back, as shown by the factory not wanting to give any more than 15% to it. The front brakes do 85% of the work, or rather, are supposed to.....
Nine inch drums running NO proportioning, can match front discs pretty well. Ten inchers proportioned, works well too.
As a Streeter, I have never needed discs on the back, so I can't help you with that.
The pedal is hard and comes back just fine. It’s really just poor stopping distance. I did just roll with the cheap semi metallic pads
With a high, hard, NOT spongy pedal, new lines and hoses;
pretty much the only reason I can see for lousy stopping is:
Friction materials, contact patches, or sizing of the caliper pistons. Well unless your A-body's trunk is full of concrete, lol.
--------------------------------
Personally,
on the street, I like organic pads. They seem to work better when cold. My rotors run chilly, cuz :
1) I run the front wheel-bearing on the loose side so the rotors tend to knock the pistons back into the fixed-calipers, which gets the pads off the rotors. and
2) I have 295s on the back with un-proportioned 10" drums that do most of the work. and
3) I have a High-Compression 367 with a manual trans, which gives me plenty of Compression-Braking, and I hardly even need to use the brakes.
4) plus I run generous following distances. plus
5) I live in a rural area, with only small towns nearby, as in very little traffic..
6) I mostly use the brakes for when the gas pedal application just won't get me outta trouble, lol. Those 295s in the back, I found out, do an amazing job of braking in sideways slides, lol..
 
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I got my stainless lines from Right Stuff and my distribution block from Classic Ind. which I think means Fine Lines. I had 4 leaking joints after installation. 3 sealed up after loosening and tightening 5 - 10 times. The last one was at the distribution block. after a dozen tries I called Right Stuff and they asked me to try a dozen more, which I did. It still didn't seal. I called them back and they sent me, free of charge, a stock steel line that goes between the distributions block and the little proportioning valve and that sealed after a few trys. The Distribution block is still a problem. The brakes seem to work fine, but the brake light on the dash doesn't go out unless you push hard on the pedal.
 
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