Lifter Failure

[Gator]

Well after installing my Comp.477 lift Hyd cam and lifter set and after proper assembly and break in period following Comp Cams instructions to a Tee I had a lifter fail. During the initial break in period with the idle at 2500 for 30 minutes the engine sounded great. Shut down for an hr and restarted and let it idle at around 1500 for 5 minutes and still sounded great. The next day running down the road and after about 10 miles started hearing lifter noise. By the time I got back home 20 miles later it was really rattling. The pic is what the lifter looked like when I pulled it out. It looks like the lifter was not rotating in the bore hole in which when installing and checking the movement we did rotate it slightly just to make sure it was free moving. So wondering why it did not rotate completely.

 

[RustyRatRod]

Piss poor metallurgy and lifter finish machining. This has been an issue for ten and more years now.

 

[Lefty71]

You say proper assembly and break in.....but you didnt say the lifter bores were broached and the lifter checked for rotation at assembly. Are you sure this one was spinning good??
Cam and lifters job to do over either way.....no bueno.

 

[340six]

Cut the filter open. And look at oil. Bet it looks like metal flake paint from the 60s-70s.
All that stuff Went Everywhere.

 

[440 Mike]

when installing and checking the movement we did rotate it slightly just to make sure it was free moving. So wondering why it did not rotate completely.

During assembly you need to roll the cam over to make sure that all of the lifters are rotating. Still no guarantee that the metallurgy doesn't suck.

 

[Uncle Bob]

you didnt say the lifter bores were broached and the lifter checked for rotation at assembly

When I checked my engine some lifters were reluctant to rotate so I bought one of these and corrected the problem before proceeding.

LBB-CR1 | .906

Use with our Lifter Bore Burnishing Tool to eliminate burrs caused by shot blasting. This .906" diameter lifter bore burnishing ball is sized for Chrysler.

goodson.com

Yes the machine shop honed the lifter bores, but I wasn't taking any chances.

It's very simple to use, just screw it on the end of a slide hammer, tap it through the bore from the top, then use the slide hammer to pull it back out.

 

[gzig5]

Most likely was poor machining on the lifter face or maybe a tight bore that didn't allow the lifter to rotate correctly.
I just put in a set of Comp SFT lifters that I got five years ago and they needed to be refaced before they were used. Luckily @NC Engine Builder did the motor, saw that things weren't right, is setup to properly grind lifter faces, and he corrected them before anything went sideways. As a matter of fact, they wouldn't rotated correctly in freshly bushed lifter bores, so they were truly FUBAR. But to the naked eye with a straightedge, they looked OK. Don't take anything for granted with valvetrain parts these days. Check and re-check.

 

[Gator]

You say proper assembly and break in.....but you didnt say the lifter bores were broached and the lifter checked for rotation at assembly. Are you sure this one was spinning good??
Cam and lifters job to do over either way.....no bueno.

They all spun freely when installing but we did not spin the full 360, prolly at best 180. They all went in relatively easy. I did a Cam /Lifter replacement on my BB 383 Dodge Charger years ago and had no problems, easy peasy..

 

[Bodyperson]

They all spun freely when installing but we did not spin the full 360, prolly at best 180. They all went in relatively easy. I did a Cam /Lifter replacement on my BB 383 Dodge Charger years ago and had no problems, easy peasy..

Was the 383 cam made by Comp?

 

[RustyRatRod]

I actually have a theory about SOME of these failures......I may be crazy, but here it is. On my last TWO engines, I experienced camshaft failures. One was a 402 Chevy big block. Hydraulic flat tappet Comp Thumpr cam and lifter kit. Every single lobe and lifter was damaged. A few alMOST had the bottoms worn completely through. I did everything "right" and "by the book". I used ZDDP paste on the cam dna lifters. I also used it on the sides of the lifters. I think that might have helped make the lifters stick in the bores and not spin. Happened on my Ford 400 this second time around too. It's funny though, because the first time I built that engine, it fired off and broke in fine.....in fact, the high dollar Crower cam saver lifters failed. But they didn't fail by tearing up. They failed because when the engine got warm, the lifters bleed down too fast and ticked loudly. All 16 of them. So, I was pissed off and ordered up 16 of the CHEAPEST Melling lifters Summit had. lol. Got those in it and if fired up and broke in again but this time it did FINE for over three years until the engine lost oil pressure. I put a Summit cam and lifter kit in it this time. Fired it up for break in and it SEEMED like all was well. 100 plus PSI so we got the oil pressure fixed. However, it was quickly evident that the new cam and lifters were failing. Lifter noise and the engine was running rough. Again, I think I did everything "right". BUT, I'm beginning to think that maybe thick assembly lube on these lifters isn't a good idea. I'm going to do something different this time. I haven't exactly made up my mind, WHAT, but I am going to make DAMN SURE these lifters spin before I ever put the intake back on it.

 

[NC Engine Builder]

A simple test anyone can do is this. Put the cam in with no lube on the lobes, just oil the bearing journals. Put the lifters in with wd40 on the sides, mark a spot on the lifter with a sharpie. Rotate the engine over a few rounds, and verify the lifter is rotating. If it doesn't, it WILL fail. Sometimes it's a burr in the lifter bore, but most often it is incorrect machining of the lifter faces. Doesn't matter WHO you bought them from.

 

[PRH]

I’d be interested in seeing the bottoms of the other 15 lifters…….to see if there are signs of any others starting to go.

Any idea what the spring pressures are on the heads?

My .02 on the situation is, that much wear in about 1 hours run time indicates to me that it started to fail essentially on start up.

 

[RustyRatRod]

A simple test anyone can do is this. Put the cam in with no lube on the lobes, just oil the bearing journals. Put the lifters in with wd40 on the sides, mark a spot on the lifter with a sharpie. Rotate the engine over a few rounds, and verify the lifter is rotating. If it doesn't, it WILL fail. Sometimes it's a burr in the lifter bore, but most often it is incorrect machining of the lifter faces. Doesn't matter WHO you bought them from.

What do you recommend on cam lobes and lifters? I think this time I am going to use Permatex Ultra Slick. I am also going to use Rotella T1 straight 40SAE with ZDDP.

 

[PRH]

What do you recommend on cam lobes and lifters? I think this time I am going to use Permatex Ultra Slick. I am also going to use Rotella T1 straight 40SAE with ZDDP.

Send him the lifters to be trued up.

 

[NC Engine Builder]

What do you recommend on cam lobes and lifters? I think this time I am going to use Permatex Ultra Slick. I am also going to use Rotella T1 straight 40SAE with ZDDP.

That's almost like asking about someone's favorite ice cream. But I have a few old bottles of the brown stuff that used to come in the purple shaft kits, and I have used Isky rev lube in the past also.

 

[mygasser]

What do you recommend on cam lobes and lifters? I think this time I am going to use Permatex Ultra Slick. I am also going to use Rotella T1 straight 40SAE with ZDDP.

i just used that for the first time ever (over 40 years building engines for myself and freinds) in a ford fe and one of the new melling lifters failed about 17 minutes into the break in, of course it took the cam lobe with it. we flushed everything and reassembled the motor with a melling cam/lifter kit. just over 15 minutes into break in and again failure, this time 5 lifters/lobes went bad.
i've previously used the cam lube 'paste' and never had any problems. this time both cams and lifters were generously coated with permatex ultra slick that came with the cam/lifters. oil as usual was proper running in oil with 1500ppm zddp.
needless to say i won't lube any more cams/lifters with ultra slick. i'm going to try this next time when i fit the 340 cam/lifters to the 318 for my '58 rambler gasser. 1 x 1lb Tub, Driven Racing Oil Engine Assembly Grease (Cams, Followers, Rockers) | eBay UK
neil.

 

[RustyRatRod]

i just used that for the first time ever (over 40 years building engines for myself and freinds) in a ford fe and one of the new melling lifters failed about 17 minutes into the break in, of course it took the cam lobe with it. we flushed everything and reassembled the motor with a melling cam/lifter kit. just over 15 minutes into break in and again failure, this time 5 lifters/lobes went bad.
i've previously used the cam lube 'paste' and never had any problems. this time both cams and lifters were generously coated with permatex ultra slick that came with the cam/lifters. oil as usual was proper running in oil with 1500ppm zddp.
needless to say i won't lube any more cams/lifters with ultra slick. i'm going to try this next time when i fit the 340 cam/lifters to the 318 for my '58 rambler gasser. 1 x 1lb Tub, Driven Racing Oil Engine Assembly Grease (Cams, Followers, Rockers) | eBay UK
neil.

But how do any of us know WHAT causes these failures for sure? Was it Ultra Slick? Was it crappy metallurgy? There's just no smoking gun and that flat out sucks. I remember growing up, we didn't have the foggiest idea how to "properly" break in new cam and lifters. We just started it up and drove it and we never had a problem. I feel your pain as I am in the middle of doing mine a second time.

 

[mygasser]

But how do any of us know WHAT causes these failures for sure? Was it Ultra Slick? Was it crappy metallurgy? There's just no smoking gun and that flat out sucks. I remember growing up, we didn't have the foggiest idea how to "properly" break in new cam and lifters. We just started it up and drove it and we never had a problem. I feel your pain as I am in the middle of doing mine a second time.

it's the temporary motor in our son's 66 ford zephyr gasser, only fitted to get it driving for his wife's 40th birthday party in april. he couldn't leave it alone and running well all stock hence the cam swap as well as a 4 barrel and making fenderwell headers. the original plan that it now seems we're going back to is full chassis/cage and tunnel rammed 440/512 with 727. it already has a narrowed exploder axle and 10" and 4.5" slot mags and we have a speedway tube axle front end for it too.
neil.

 

[Dan the man]

But how do any of us know WHAT causes these failures for sure? Was it Ultra Slick? Was it crappy metallurgy? There's just no smoking gun and that flat out sucks. I remember growing up, we didn't have the foggiest idea how to "properly" break in new cam and lifters. We just started it up and drove it and we never had a problem. I feel your pain as I am in the middle of doing mine a second time.

Would

But how do any of us know WHAT causes these failures for sure? Was it Ultra Slick? Was it crappy metallurgy? There's just no smoking gun and that flat out sucks. I remember growing up, we didn't have the foggiest idea how to "properly" break in new cam and lifters. We just started it up and drove it and we never had a problem. I feel your pain as I am in the middle of doing mine a second time.

Would a spring with less spring pressure and a rocker arm with less ratio? Just asking

 

[gzig5]

I'm not an engine builder but I know enough about mechanics and metalurgy to know that if that lifter is spinning the way it is designed to, it will take quite a while to wear out a soft lifter face. If the angle of the cam lobe is off or the lifter face doesn't have the correct dome on it, it won't spin properly and the oil film that seperates the parts is lost. Even a properly hardened lifter will fail in short order with no oil film. Zinc is needed in the oil too, but I doubt these failures that happen quickly with a decent oil are due to the assembly lube or lack of zinc in the oil.

 

[Newbomb Turk]

What do you recommend on cam lobes and lifters? I think this time I am going to use Permatex Ultra Slick. I am also going to use Rotella T1 straight 40SAE with ZDDP.

TORCO TORCO TORCO TORCO.

 

[Newbomb Turk]

I'm not an engine builder but I know enough about mechanics and metalurgy to know that if that lifter is spinning the way it is designed to, it will take quite a while to wear out a soft lifter face. If the angle of the cam lobe is off or the lifter face doesn't have the correct dome on it, it won't spin properly and the oil film that seperates the parts is lost. Even a properly hardened lifter will fail in short order with no oil film. Zinc is needed in the oil too, but I doubt these failures that happen quickly with a decent oil are due to the assembly lube or lack of zinc in the oil.

EXACTLY.

All ENGINE oils have to have zinc in them. ALL OF THEM.

The difference is how much they have and how the zinc is formulated.

You can have an oil with 1800 ppm of zinc and an oil with 800 ppm and the ONLY difference is the oil with less zinc will use up the zinc long before the oil with more zinc in it will.

It’s a consumable in the oil.

I read these threads and I laugh that guys are STILL using oils that were never designed for gasoline engines, old formulas and on and on.

If you are price shopping oil you are screwing yourself. You are stepping over donuts to grab dog turds.

My wife’s 2017 Durango was using oil at about 1200 miles to a quart. I switched it over to Torco. The first change it used a quart in 8k miles.

The second oil change went 10k and it didn’t use a half quart. Oil it was seals the rings.

But you can’t make cheapskate, penny pinching, tightwads understand that oil CAN go 10k miles and be better than the **** oil they change every 3k miles. They’ll never grasp the simple concept.

So they are doing 3:1 oil changes and think they are saving money.

 

[TF360]

Seems like they are failing on everybody! My neighbor had issues with his Olds 455 too. What's going on? I say we ask Johnny Mac, NC Engine Builder, Brian from IMM (not sure of the proper name with Brian) and any other builders to chime in. with what they see as the problem. Maybe someone works for Comp. or Edelbrock on the site and can comment.

 

[Newbomb Turk]

Seems like they are failing on everybody! My neighbor had issues with his Olds 455 too. What's going on? I say we ask Johnny Mac, NC Engine Builder, Brian from IMM (not sure of the proper name with Brian) and any other builders to chime in. with what they see as the problem. Maybe someone works for Comp. or Edelbrock on the site and can comment.

You really need to check every single lifter to verify the radius on the lifter is correct. Putting two lifters together and looking for light between them isn’t good enough. You can have light between two lifters but the lifters have a point in the center. Thats NOT a radius, and those lifters will fail.

The other thing is high pressure lube used on the cam and lifters. IMO there are only three that are worth using and I only use one of them.

The first is the old tried and true Isky Rev lube, and any of the variants like it. Crower used to have it and so did a couple of other companies. If a cam lobe/lifter fails and you used that lube it wasn’t a lube failure. At least not a lube issue relative to assembly lube. You could still be using a junk engine oil.

The second is the stuff the Jim at Racer Brown sends out. I forget exactly what it’s called. I think it’s CP…something. Anyway, thats good stuff and it doesn’t end up in the bottom of the pan, leaving that nasty assed residue the Isky Rev lube and similar products do. I hate that with a passion.

The only one I use when I have the option is Torco cam assembly lube. In fact I only use two products to assemble an engine. Torco cam lube and Torco assembly lube.

It doesn’t end up in the pan because it’s oil soluble. And since it’s formulated to be oil soluble it stays in solution and circulates with the oil until you drain out the break in oil, which I only use Torco for that.

I have tried and tested most oils and lubes out there. A couple can equal Torco, but I’ve never seen an oil or lube beat Torco in an actual test.

You can spend less money on oil and lube, but it’s really stepping on your own dick and taking chances that are unnecessary.

 

[mderoy340]

All I use is an old tub of Crane Cams lube and a brush to coat the lobes and lifter faces.

Robot or human?