TT5.9mag
Two atmospheres are better than one
Lash (or a little sloppy) in a hydraulic system will add to the rapid destruction of a lifter/cam.
Lifter Failure
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NC Engine Builder
Grumpy Old Man
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No amount of prelube or breakin will help when the lifters are machined like this. The one on the left has been remachined, the 2 on the right were put in the machine with a very light touch off pass, you can see the radius is off center. It's like the lifter body was chucked crooked. Most are that way right out of the box. That's why they fail in my opinion.
TT5.9mag
Two atmospheres are better than one
I think you’re absolutely correct. Spring pressure has little effect, lube has little effect. The two most important things are lobe taper, and the face of the lifter.
Okay maybe I should be a little more clear . I set my preload on my hydraulics at about 1/2 turn on a adjustable rocker arm. And if you don't consider the stock hydraulic rocker arm set up on mopars to be a little sloppy we have a different point of view. My point is a lot of damage can be caused by cranking down The rocker assembly and eliminating proper clearances . I've never flattened a cam in 50 years maybe I'm just lucky.
TT5.9mag
Two atmospheres are better than one
Ok I’m with ya now. As long as there isn’t lash we agree.
PRH
Well-Known Member
These discussions aren’t complete without mentioning the fact that there are a growing number of engine builders, some of which have been doing it for decades(without abnormally high FT cam failures), that have adopted a “no FT cams” policy.
It’s not like they all of a sudden forgot how to build a motor and break in a cam.
Something has changed.
It’s not like they all of a sudden forgot how to build a motor and break in a cam.
Something has changed.
MOPAROFFICIAL
If it has tits, it's a liabilititty.
Well there was this one scenario where I'd come to help a guy break in his camshaft and upon installing The Rocker shafts and arms and doing the Lash I guess he had a bound pushrod on his side that didn't quite catch the cup right, so he loosened The Rocker shaft a little to get it lined up but then forgot to torque it back down on that end 'the shaft was now tighter on one end and progressively looser toward the opposite end'...he put the valve cover on and fired the car after saying he lashed it correctly yadda yadda lol..it ran and then about 30 seconds in... started making clatter..
I said "shut it off!"
I walked over to the driver's side where I distinctly heard the racket and pulled that valve cover to find the loose rocker shaft. 20 seconds is a long time when a lifters ping pong in between the push rod and lobe... BUT ... I checked everything, assembled it back together.. and continued to break-in the cam with success.
Parts are a big issue. This was a cam made by Rubens cams and lifters sold by him. I have no idea who makes his lifters.
I typically do everything myself. There's one guy I can split an engine with, but there was this one time he professed about how a freeze plugs not supposed to be pushed below the edge so that it could pop out if the motor ever froze.. lo and behold that rear freeze plug popped out at the top of third gear and I had to get a tow home. That was 2003.
Its just better to do it yourself..and how you like it. For what it's worth there was no glue on that plug, I don't glue my plugs then that's why I push them in further with a finger of sealer wiped around them. I've never had one pop aside for the one my friend did .
I said "shut it off!"
I walked over to the driver's side where I distinctly heard the racket and pulled that valve cover to find the loose rocker shaft. 20 seconds is a long time when a lifters ping pong in between the push rod and lobe... BUT ... I checked everything, assembled it back together.. and continued to break-in the cam with success.
Parts are a big issue. This was a cam made by Rubens cams and lifters sold by him. I have no idea who makes his lifters.
I typically do everything myself. There's one guy I can split an engine with, but there was this one time he professed about how a freeze plugs not supposed to be pushed below the edge so that it could pop out if the motor ever froze.. lo and behold that rear freeze plug popped out at the top of third gear and I had to get a tow home. That was 2003.
Its just better to do it yourself..and how you like it. For what it's worth there was no glue on that plug, I don't glue my plugs then that's why I push them in further with a finger of sealer wiped around them. I've never had one pop aside for the one my friend did .
NC Engine Builder
Grumpy Old Man
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I'm one of very few shops that even have the equipment to resurface lifters. It was one of my better investments I'd say!
Gator
Mopar or No Car
Very interesting read.
Dave999
Well-Known Member
The lifter face shape has been mentioned. other dimensions can be out of whack as well
in a box of 12 or 16 you can also find one with a body that is under sized i.e well out of tolerance, when oiled just falls through the lifter bore
on a six if i can put it in with 1 hand and get my hand under to catch it in good time i'm happy
if it fall through onto my mat in double quick time, i'm not happy, it needs to be measured to provide proof, and there is a long wait for another to arrive from the supplier
if it never falls through i'm also not happy that needs investigating and it may be more suitable in another hole.
if i turn it and it then falls through is it dingged? is it as cylindrical as it should be? or is the bore scored or has a hangup at the oil gallery catching the oil band on the lifter.
did i choose a lifter with an appropriate oil band position for my open gallery style of block?
if the originals had a narrow band do these wide oil band versions cause a problem?
lifter face can be checked on flat plate or look for light with it against the side of another lifter
lifter size can be measured with your electronic calipers, they are accurate enough to show a bad one.
lifter could be AMC in which case the seat for the pushrod may well be at a different height in the body from a mopar one both types fit but you won't spot the difference easily, use to your advantage rather than get caught out, this could be the difference between a pushrod rubbing somewhere or not.
and indeed oiling through the pushrod or not
All just stuff I've picked up from people way more experienced than me that i've found useful when trying to avoid issues
Dave
in a box of 12 or 16 you can also find one with a body that is under sized i.e well out of tolerance, when oiled just falls through the lifter bore
on a six if i can put it in with 1 hand and get my hand under to catch it in good time i'm happy
if it fall through onto my mat in double quick time, i'm not happy, it needs to be measured to provide proof, and there is a long wait for another to arrive from the supplier
if it never falls through i'm also not happy that needs investigating and it may be more suitable in another hole.
if i turn it and it then falls through is it dingged? is it as cylindrical as it should be? or is the bore scored or has a hangup at the oil gallery catching the oil band on the lifter.
did i choose a lifter with an appropriate oil band position for my open gallery style of block?
if the originals had a narrow band do these wide oil band versions cause a problem?
lifter face can be checked on flat plate or look for light with it against the side of another lifter
lifter size can be measured with your electronic calipers, they are accurate enough to show a bad one.
lifter could be AMC in which case the seat for the pushrod may well be at a different height in the body from a mopar one both types fit but you won't spot the difference easily, use to your advantage rather than get caught out, this could be the difference between a pushrod rubbing somewhere or not.
and indeed oiling through the pushrod or not
All just stuff I've picked up from people way more experienced than me that i've found useful when trying to avoid issues
Dave
Dave999
Well-Known Member
wobbly edge on both sides of the lobe......that's not a good look
Agree, and the quality of the metal itself...
Gator
Mopar or No Car
Since you mentioned that out of a box of 16 lifters the one that failed and took out my cam the OD measured at 1/4 of the way down from the top and it measured @ .910 while the majority of the others were at .907 in the same area and I measured the bad one a few times and always came up with pretty much the same dimension.
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Dave999
Well-Known Member
maybe stiff to turn when hot.... that would kill it
well if they can make them undersize by accident, then can make them too fat as well....
well if they can make them undersize by accident, then can make them too fat as well....
That's a problem, & not acceptable, yikes.....
Dave999
Well-Known Member
considering the expense and misery caused, no, not good enough , and obviously not as good as or better than OEM... so can't be considered a performance part. and if the diameter is wrong can't be considered a standard or replacement part. Its just expensive scrap...
so worth checking the advertising BS of the manufacturer or supplier, and if possible arm yourself with the appropriate quotes from it to illustrate the point you intend to make....
measure-photo-proof-complain- illustrate the difference from what was advertised/promised
see where you get to.....
if you don't ask you don't get, and they will never know....
and if you get no where at least you tried
Dave
so worth checking the advertising BS of the manufacturer or supplier, and if possible arm yourself with the appropriate quotes from it to illustrate the point you intend to make....
measure-photo-proof-complain- illustrate the difference from what was advertised/promised
see where you get to.....
if you don't ask you don't get, and they will never know....
and if you get no where at least you tried
Dave
Dave999
Well-Known Member
having the cost of a new set of mains and rod bearings
lifters and cam
bottle of degreaser
gasket set
filter
to hand
When making your "quiet direct but calm" point may be of benefit
don't show your hand too early if they suggest doing something to make amends find out what it is before suggesting its not quite enough... you have a range of points you can make
as I say you may get nowhere but id want at least a set of lifters that they have measured and can assure me are GOOD
your measurement illustrates it wasn't an assembly problem you should not have to do QA routines on the parts they sell. you should not have to do quality assurance routines as an end customer
a mopar lifter should be sized as a mopar lifter. if its an oversize mopar lifter it should have been in a set of oversize mopar lifters and labelled as such
Dave
lifters and cam
bottle of degreaser
gasket set
filter
to hand
When making your "quiet direct but calm" point may be of benefit
don't show your hand too early if they suggest doing something to make amends find out what it is before suggesting its not quite enough... you have a range of points you can make
as I say you may get nowhere but id want at least a set of lifters that they have measured and can assure me are GOOD
your measurement illustrates it wasn't an assembly problem you should not have to do QA routines on the parts they sell. you should not have to do quality assurance routines as an end customer
a mopar lifter should be sized as a mopar lifter. if its an oversize mopar lifter it should have been in a set of oversize mopar lifters and labelled as such
Dave
Gator
Mopar or No Car
Because of all the metal shavings throughout the motor I would have to completely tear it down all the way which would require a complete rebuild. I have decided to go another route and purchased a 408 Stroker from Summit. I do not want to deal with those inconsistant lifters any longer. It was time to up grade a little.
PRH
Well-Known Member
Hopefully it comes with a roller cam.
mygasser
Well-Known Member
that's a bit unfair in as much as the chinese can machine parts as accurately as anywhere in the world. the issue arises when the customer wants to pay them $20 for a £50 part, so they supply said customer with a $20 part. it's not hard to work out where the bad reputation comes from with stuff like that happening all the time. they will make a part to a price or they will make a part to a quality, the 2 are rarely the same thing.
neil.
Dartswinger70
Well-Known Member
I've installed two summit K6903 cams and I never had issues I don't even rev them to 2000 rpm for 20 minutes either. I saw a guy badly overheat a chevy years ago revving a cam break in and I never have done it since. Ill go 1500 rpm etc. I will also admit I havent installed them recently, last one was 2008 one before was 2003. I agree on the convex lifters, also the cam lobe has to be machined to allow for the lifter rotation, the lobe has a slight incline so to speak. Cam lobe can be checked with a vernier caliper.
340six
King Of Bling
Should I just run my new Engle Solid flat tappet cam and 25 to 30 year old Competition Cams lifters. Or have them resurfaced?
I also have 2 new-old Hydraulic Flat Cams and 25 to 30 years or so old lifters.
Guess I am asking trust old stuff or not.
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