Lost Ignition #2

[340inabbody]

After successfully starting and running I lost ignition #2 voltage. All I did was install a new radiator and turn signal switch.

Traced (keep in mind this is a B body but I bet it’s almost the sMe as an A?) the lack of voltage all the way to the ignition switch red (source?) where I have bat voltage. However ignition 2 voltage does not show on the output of the ignition switch brown wire. Shouldn’t that wire be vbat when the key is in the “run” mode ie ignition#2?

I am having a hard time believing it’s the switch since that was replaced and has little use on it. It’s a nos unit made in the US as well. But I can’t see how it is not since thats the only thing left in the circuit I believe.

Steering wheel still off and steering column down btw from replacing the turn signal indicator switch (which is operational).

Ideas?

 

[67Dart273]

IGN1 is often times blue but not always, it is hot ONLY in the run position. It goes dead during cranking or when key is in ACC

IGN2 is hot the same as the "start" contact, but they are two separate switch contacts/ circuits. IGN2 is often brown, feeds out through the bulkhead, to the coil side of the ballast and feeds full battery to the coil during cranking. If you have factory (or added) Mopar breakerless, the power at the coil + feeds BACK through the ballast resistor and powers the ECU

What year/ model are you working on?

the ign2 is simple. Comes off the ignition switch, goes through the bulkhead connector, and to the ballast. So if the ignition switch contact is bad/ intermittent, the switch connector terminal damaged, or the bulkhead connector terminals are corroded damaged, that is about all it can be

The IGN1 is approximently the same, although there may be a splice/ etc in the pass compartment. The IGN1, "generally" feeds the oil/ parking brake warning lights, the cluster power including the gauges IVR. Out through the bulkhead connector, there is a splice somewhere. Depending year/ model, that feeds ignition system, VR, alternator field, electric choke if used, and smog doo dads if present, such as idle solenoid, etc.

Be careful, NEITHER are fused except by the poor protection of the fuse link.

 

[67Dart273]

By the way, in my 'yute' I owned a 69 383 4 speed RR and then a 70 440-6 4 speed, 3.54 Dana. Gawd I wish I had that 70 back

This was when it was new, the original owner and still a friend of mine. He is 78-80, I am 76. We are both radio amateurs and still friends. We have been up to Lions where he trophied in pure stock. He was on a drydock ship at Long Beach, and I was newly stationed at NAS Miramar

Below is in my parent's back yard when I got out of the Navy in 74. By this time I have swapped a 340 !!! into the car

 

[340inabbody]

IGN1 is often times blue but not always, it is hot ONLY in the run position. It goes dead during cranking or when key is in ACC

IGN2 is hot the same as the "start" contact, but they are two separate switch contacts/ circuits. IGN2 is often brown, feeds out through the bulkhead, to the coil side of the ballast and feeds full battery to the coil during cranking. If you have factory (or added) Mopar breakerless, the power at the coil + feeds BACK through the ballast resistor and powers the ECU

What year/ model are you working on?

the ign2 is simple. Comes off the ignition switch, goes through the bulkhead connector, and to the ballast. So if the ignition switch contact is bad/ intermittent, the switch connector terminal damaged, or the bulkhead connector terminals are corroded damaged, that is about all it can be

The IGN1 is approximently the same, although there may be a splice/ etc in the pass compartment. The IGN1, "generally" feeds the oil/ parking brake warning lights, the cluster power including the gauges IVR. Out through the bulkhead connector, there is a splice somewhere. Depending year/ model, that feeds ignition system, VR, alternator field, electric choke if used, and smog doo dads if present, such as idle solenoid, etc.

Be careful, NEITHER are fused except by the poor protection of the fuse link.

Thanks it’s a 1970 Sport Satellite using an MSD set as shown. It was running but something broke/changed. I lost 12V signal to the MSD (2V) power/battery was good. Same at the VR 2V. Traced and isolated the brown wire out of the ignition 2V. Red incoming feed to the ignition switch was 13V.

Only explanation I can come up with is a bad ignition switch like you said. But how/why? Was working and is newish. Oh wait that part was not a NOS. It could be a bad Chinesium switch I suppose.

Can it be anything else?

 

[340inabbody]

This is it.

 

[340inabbody]

I am thinking of supplying 12V manually to Ignition #2 from the battery just to confirm function and start the motor. Will having Ignition 1 and Ignition 2 on AT THE SAME TIME BE AN ISSUE?

 

[67Dart273]

No in fact you must jumper IGN1 (run) and IGN2 (bypass) together in order to get ignition power to start the thing, because now you have an ignition system not using a ballast.

What was the closest point to the key switch you checked? If you don't have it at the bulkhead, and don't have it at the ign switch connector coming out of the column, it is likely the switch itself. There is some possibility that the short wire from the switch connector to the actual switch is bad

Does ANYthing else work? Any of the gauges, warning lamps? If so, then it's not the switch, it's somewhere in the harness

 

[Scody21]

jumping #1 and 2 together is key on running the MSD off the switch. You could also run the “on” thin red from the MSD to a switch under the dash for a “kill” switch theft deterrent ran from a power source.

 

[340inabbody]

No in fact you must jumper IGN1 (run) and IGN2 (bypass) together in order to get ignition power to start the thing, because now you have an ignition system not using a ballast.

What was the closest point to the key switch you checked? If you don't have it at the bulkhead, and don't have it at the ign switch connector coming out of the column, it is likely the switch itself. There is some possibility that the short wire from the switch connector to the actual switch is bad

Does ANYthing else work? Any of the gauges, warning lamps? If so, then it's not the switch, it's somewhere in the harness

No power to the fuse box acc.
I ran it down to the wire harness of the switch itself at the connector output and it’s isolated.
Again I did have it working but something changed.

 

[340inabbody]

jumping #1 and 2 together is key on running the MSD off the switch. You could also run the “on” thin red from the MSD to a switch under the dash for a “kill” switch theft deterrent ran from a power source.

Oh I like this idea a lot! It’s way easier than a switch replacement! The switch has like 20 hours on it! If it’s bad then its of crappy design/material and can happen again. I do get like 2V maybe a short or ohmic contact??

 

[340inabbody]

That switch idea is a killer idea! I verified that it will work with a jumper from vbat and my MSD box lit up!

Thanks!!

jumping #1 and 2 together is key on running the MSD off the switch. You could also run the “on” thin red from the MSD to a switch under the dash for a “kill” switch theft deterrent ran from a power source.

 

[67Dart273]

And I had my head 'up there' as I spaced out the MSD, some comments:

Read carefully the destructions. You want the large black to a good ground, and the large read direct to a good battery feed NOT switched.

The small red, as mentioned, is the switch lead, acts like a relay coil so to say.

Make certain there is NOTHING connected to the coil EXCEPT the two MSD leads. No tach, and no radio suppression capacitor. You have to follow whatever MSD wants for a tach.

So far as the power problem in the car, sounds like it is time to pull the column apart and examine the switch, it's immediate harness, and connector.

 

[340inabbody]

And I had my head 'up there' as I spaced out the MSD, some comments:

Read carefully the destructions. You want the large black to a good ground, and the large read direct to a good battery feed NOT switched.

The small red, as mentioned, is the switch lead, acts like a relay coil so to say.

Make certain there is NOTHING connected to the coil EXCEPT the two MSD leads. No tach, and no radio suppression capacitor. You have to follow whatever MSD wants for a tach.

So far as the power problem in the car, sounds like it is time to pull the column apart and examine the switch, it's immediate harness, and connector.

Question what is the impact of having a connection directly on the coil?

 

[340inabbody]

Well I interrupted the Brown Ignition #2 and put a switch to 12V bat. The engine fired right up BUT flipped the switch and it kept running! I had to disconnect the battery to stop it.
So I am looking at the schematics trying to figure out why the kill switch didn’t kill the motor……

 

[67Dart273]

Question what is the impact of having a connection directly on the coil?

MSD --or any other CD type ignition works completely different from Kettering or what has become known as "switched" ignition. "Switched" is conventional, where the coil NEG lead is switched by points, or Mopar breakerless, or GM HEI, etc

CDI has a high voltage inverter in the box which charged up a capacitor like a photoflash. When it triggers, the cap discharges across the coil. There is no battery/ DC voltage in the coil of a CD. The NEG side of the coil is grounded, and the pulse from the CD box feeds the coil POS.

Again the ONLY TWO wires connected to your coil should be from the MSD box. The MSD box basically gets a trigger from the dist, power from the big black GND and the big red (positive) and works/ runs when the small red is fed power.

If you have anything else on the MSD side of your toggle switch, something may be backfeeding.

 

[340inabbody]

MSD --or any other CD type ignition works completely different from Kettering or what has become known as "switched" ignition. "Switched" is conventional, where the coil NEG lead is switched by points, or Mopar breakerless, or GM HEI, etc

CDI has a high voltage inverter in the box which charged up a capacitor like a photoflash. When it triggers, the cap discharges across the coil. There is no battery/ DC voltage in the coil of a CD. The NEG side of the coil is grounded, and the pulse from the CD box feeds the coil POS.

Again the ONLY TWO wires connected to your coil should be from the MSD box. The MSD box basically gets a trigger from the dist, power from the big black GND and the big red (positive) and works/ runs when the small red is fed power.

If you have anything else on the MSD side of your toggle switch, something may be backfeeding.

Thanks I was/am planning to check what else maybe affecting the voltage on the thin red control line on the MSD box. I think you’re right on this. BTW the coil is clean with only the MSD BOX CONNECTED.

It’s now 110F in the garage so I have a limited window of extended time to work out there. So ill try and figure out what may be “backfeeding” that red line.
Thanks again for your insight it’s very helpful!!!

 

[340inabbody]

Guys can you confirm that ignition switch energies both the dark blue and brown connections at the same time for “Ignition #2”? Meaning they are the same node when the key is in the run position.?.
Many thanks…..

 

[67Dart273]

I may be misunderstanding your question, or you didn't comprehend my earlier posts.

Dark blu, IGN1, "ignition run" is hot ONLY in run and IS the source of the underhood power (depending on year/ model) for ignition, alternator field, voltage regulator, electric choke if used, and other underhood doo dads. THAT POWER IS ONLY HOT in "run." IT IS DEAD in "start" or ACC"

Brown, IGN2, "bypass" is hot at same time as the "start" circuit, BUT IS A different set of switch contacts. It is ONLY hot in start, and is THE source of ignition power for starting.

Those two must be jumpered if you have a no ballast ignition system, such as MSD

 

[340inabbody]

I may be misunderstanding your question, or you didn't comprehend my earlier posts.

Dark blu, IGN1, "ignition run" is hot ONLY in run and IS the source of the underhood power (depending on year/ model) for ignition, alternator field, voltage regulator, electric choke if used, and other underhood doo dads. THAT POWER IS ONLY HOT in "run." IT IS DEAD in "start" or ACC"

Brown, IGN2, "bypass" is hot at same time as the "start" circuit, BUT IS A different set of switch contacts. It is ONLY hot in start, and is THE source of ignition power for starting.

Those two must be jumpered if you have a no ballast ignition system, such as MSD

Thank you this makes sense that the Blue and Brown are jumped directly without a ballast resistor. That is how I have it.
I am working with a non standardized ignition connector. I just realized that on the schematic that on the ignition switch side the wire colors are not oriented the same as on the harness side!

See pic above

BK-Y
Y-BK
BR-DBL
DBL-BR

I had them wrong….which was intuitive to me.
BK-BK
Y-Y
DBL-DBL
BR-BR

It WAS working like this however…..then stoped. Now I wonder if this fried the switch???

 

[67Dart273]

So what you are saying is, you had the BLU and BRN reversed at the connector? That starts to explain some of the things you said, maybe. But with the Blue/BRN jumpered, they amount to the same point. So it should not have hurt anything. The check points are:

Power at the IGN sw, the sw connector, the bulkhead connector, and then points in the engine bay such as the MSD small red, the alternator field and the VR blu power connector.