manifold vaccum for vaccum advance ?'s

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pjc360

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ok, so i bought a brand new mopar distributer from don at fbo systems, and he insited the vaccum advance has to run off of manifold vaccum, when i mentioned running ported vaccum he about tore me a new (you know what)
So i dropped the distributer in set the initial timing at 16 degrees wich made the total land at 34 degrees, this is in a 300hp crate 360 magnum motor. And i hooked the vaccum advance up to manifold vaccum and while my engine was at an idle i could hear popping out the exhaust.
So i called don and he told me to richen up the idle air mixture screws on my carburetor and he asked what kind of carburetor i had, i told him i have the 600cfm manual choke edelbrock performer and he told me that they are total garbage of a carburetor and that i need to get rid of it. Anyways i richened up the idle air mixture screws and nothing it still popped out the exhuast...
So i turned my initial timing down from 16 degrees to 14 degrees wich made my total go from 34 degrees to 32 degrees, no big deal still runs as good as it was at 16 initial and 34 total, but that still didnt help the popping out the exhaust, so i started turning the vaccum can down and i thought all was good at 14 degrees initial plus another 10 degrees from the vaccum advance putting the initial timing at 24 at an idle because i didnt hear any pooping for a long time.
But today i heard it popping again.... So i turned my vaccum can down another full turn and it is now adding 8 degrees of timing at an idle wich makes it sit at 22 degrees at an idle and i still heard popping :banghead:
So i decided to call don at fbo systems and ask him what the hell is going on here and his response was that the problem is with my carburetor and nothing else, he said i need to throw this edelbrock in the trash and get a quickfuel ss series carburetor with a 4 corner idle circuit and adjustable air bleeds and this issue would go away and i could run 16 degrees initial and tune the vaccum advance to add 14 degrees of timing at idle and he says this is where my engine should be doing its best at 16 initial 34 total and 14 degrees from the vaccum can.
But i cant even get away with 8 degrees from the vaccum can at an idle without it popping thru the exhaust. And i think there has to be a way to fix whatever is going on without just having to throw away a brand new carburetor and buy a 500 dollar carburetor. I realize there isnt much adjustability on the idle circuit of the edelbrock carburetor, don says this popping is because of the engine wanting more fuel at an idle, and it makes no sense to me that its running lean at an idle because i can smell the fuel thru the exhaust pretty good... enough to burn my eyes. So whats going on here? If i can smell rich fuel in the exhaust why is it asking for more at an idle?
I'm thinking this might be a different problem other then it wanting more fuel at an idle. Have any of you guys had this same issue when trying to run the vaccum advance off of manifold vaccum? If so how did you fix the popping issue? And please give me some suggestions as to what i need to do to get rid of this popping other then running ported...
 
simple idea...plug the vacuum advance into the ported vacuum on the carb and see how it runs...then call Don back and ripped him a new AH....
 
I agree with Don as far as using manifold vac for advance. I've always used it on everything i ran vac advance on.
I'd make sure the coil is not wired backwards and also check the plug wires to make sure a terminal end didn't come loose or get damaged during the exchange.
 
Plug the advance. Set advance to highest rpm or vacuum. lower idle speed to correct. Now do whatever in the dist, to stop it at what you what for total.Then test the vacuum advance. It shouldn't even come in until light pedal cruising; and will pull timing to 44* plus.
 
I would be leaning it back and get a good idle speed without vacum advance with your 34 total and try a test drive. Hook up the full vacum advance and see how much the idle increases, if it does get idle down and if it is still popping I'd be looking at the distributor not the carb.
Do you have another distributor to try?

Good article: [ame]http://www.corvette-restoration.com/resources/technical_papers/Timing101.pdf[/ame]
 
never have used manifold vacuum...always used the ported vacuum on the carb...so the vacuum advance is not see vacuum while idling.....
 
never have used manifold vacuum...always used the ported vacuum on the carb...so the vacuum advance is not see vacuum while idling.....

xs2 same here, and to add... i never use any vacuum port on the intake for anything other than power brakes.
 
There is nothing wrong with that carburetor for your application. 16 degrees initial advance with no vacuum at idle should work well with ported vacuum advance. I've never seen a factory application that used vacuum at idle, i think it kinda defeats the purpose. If you think about it, there's not much difference between a 300hp crate and stock 340 except the compression, so using similar timing specs should give you a good starting point.
 
I agree with Don as far as using manifold vac for advance..

And I do............ NOT.......... MOST Mopars in the decades that these girls mostly are (1963-1975) used PORTED vacuum

IF your Edelbrock is working OK, it not a POS as this Don claims. If it is NOT working correctly, FIX it. Edelbrocks are simple carbs to work on, and there is tons of info right on the Edlebrock site.

DO THIS

Unhook the vacuum.

Set the timing for the total you want, say 36*, then see what the initial works out to and if it's reasonable. Blip the engine when checking the total to make absolutely sure it is "all in."

If you are concerned about doing this, check the timing with the engine just slightly warm, and unhook the fan belt for safety. You will not overheat the engine in the one or two minutes that this should take.

Next, adjust idle screws for maximum RPM, or max vacuum if you have a gauge. You may have to reset idle SPEED while doing this. You may have to go back and forth 3/4 times between mixture and idle speed if they are "far off."

Test drive the car WITH NO VACUUM advance and see how it runs. Then hook the thing up to PORTED vacuum and drive it.
 
Alot of us will never agree on the ported/non ported vacuum, but if you can't run 14 + 8 at idle without popping there is another problem besides the vacuum source.
 
And I do............ NOT.......... MOST Mopars in the decades that these girls mostly are (1963-1975) used PORTED vacuum.

67Dart273, you know more about the internal workings of the electronics on these cars then i ever will. I find it ironic, and i say this lightheartedly:), that Mopar did things a certain way but 90% of the mods we do to these cars is to remove MaMopars stuff and replace it with aftermarket stuff.
 
ok oldmanrick, what other problems could cause this? this is what i am trying to figure out.
the distributer is brand new phased and I just dont know what else it could be? Don says its the engine wanting more fuel at an idle. He said at idle the engine is in a lean situation and needs the fire lit earlier hence the reason for running vaccum advance off of manifold vaccum, and the manifold vaccum theroy makes sense to me... Your going along at 65 miles an hour and have to back off the throttle really quick the manifold vaccum rises and helps burn the fuel that you just waisted by backing off the throttle real fast.
The whole manifold vaccum to run vaccum advance makes sense, i just need to figure out why this is popping at an idle with 14 initial and 8 degrees from the vaccm advance? I have set my idle air mixture screws to the highest vaccum reading to no end, sometimes i dont hear any pops at all.... When its cooler outside i dont hear any popping out the exhaust, only when its real hot outside and the engine is warm. So is that a clue to what it coul be? I have 17 to 18 inches of vaccum at an idle.
 
I'm thinking don may just be right and i really could benefit from a carburetor with adjustable air bleeds and a 4 corner idle. this popping out the exhaust at an idle is very faint pops nothing loud. And the engine runs so good, like so good so i dont understand.
If i could get this little bug worked out of it i think i would have this engine really close to dam near perfectly tuned. I'm going to go mess around with it again. I had it at 14 degrees initial and 32 degrees total with an additional 10 degrees of timing from the vaccum advance hooked to manifold vaccum and i didnt hear any popping for weeks untill i took it out of town. And ever since i did that all hell as broke loose with it, i think changing elavations did something to it? I'm going to go set the vaccum can back to adding 10 degrees at an idle and mess with the idle air mixture screws untill i think its as good as it will get and post back.
 
I don't even run vacuum advance because I was having issues. The engine runs poorly with it hooked up but runs like a champ without it.
 
When you have a fairly radical cam and less then 12" or so vacuum then i could agree with the ported vacuum as it could make it irratic at idle. But you have a higher vacuum which i figured with that crate engine. At this point, if it just started, you have to look at whats been changed. The carb wasn't touched so i would rule that out for now. The distributor, the wiring for it and the plug wires are all parts that have had attention at this point. That's the first place to look as any of these could be a issue. If you have a spare coil it may not hurt to try it cause it's easy to do.
 
I'm thinking don may just be right and i really could benefit from a carburetor with adjustable air bleeds and a 4 corner idle..

BULLSHIT

Is that clear enough?

MILLIONS of these cars were built without "4 corner idle" adjustments and ran just fine.

These engines have been run with everything from small 2 bbl carbs to big 4 barrel carbs made by every manufacturer you can think of, and a few you can't.

Unhook the vacuum AND LEAVE IT unhooked until you get this thing to run right.

CHECK your timing first, uh, I mean, FIRST
 
i did check my timing first. Its sitting at 14 degrees initial and 32 total. They may sound like a stupid question, but is there anyway a restricted exhaust system could cause this issue? I do only have 2 inch exhaust pipe and plan to get the exhaust re-done with 2 1/2 inch exhaust.
My wiring is all brand new, i have a brand new ignition module wiring harness, ignition module is brand new ballast is brand new. I guess i could swap coils and see what happens.... I just dont know if that is it or not? When i pull the vaccum advance tube off of manifold vaccum the engine kicks up and idles quite a bit higher? is that normal? just thought i'd mention that.
I'm about ready to break out my mopar book and figureout to tune the vccum advance for ported vaccum. Should i set the vaccum can to where its adding 10 degrees or 12 or 14 at 17 to 18 inches of vaccum and the plug it into ported and just run it? How much more vaccum will this engine generate cruising down the highway? i do have the A-518 with overdrive non lock up converter.
 
BULLSHIT

Is that clear enough?

MILLIONS of these cars were built without "4 corner idle" adjustments and ran just fine.

I agree completely on the carb. No mild crate engine would ever need a sophisticated carb like that to run properly.

I'm assuming that you replaced the distributor to go to a more modern design and timing control and not to fix the popping issue that was occuring before. If this was a previous problem, that opens up a whole different set of possible issues.
 
When i pull the vaccum advance tube off of manifold vaccum the engine kicks up and idles quite a bit higher? is that normal? just thought i'd mention that.

You're creating a vacuum leak and that tells me your carb is probably rich enough or a little rich.
 
Look; un hook it. Figure what initial timing the engine wants. Period. Then rev it, see what total advance is. Then do into dist, and modify it. Period. The whole time, lowering the idle screw. Those idle mixture screws don;t do crap, until the timing is correct. No ping? good.

then hook up the vac ; think about this- under throttle, there is no vacuum to make anything work.

If the timing advances at idle, with vac; other issues. Like carb . What is idle vac? what is power valve ? what are metering rods and jets?

Start with timing first.
 
ok, so why would this engine be popping wanting more fuel at an idle then?
This engine never popped out the exhaust like this ever because this is the first time i have ever ran the vaccum advance off of manifold vaccum. I see that the mopar engine bible suggests you have 52 degrees total timing with vaccum advance hooked up to ported vaccum, that seems like an awfull lot? i was thinking maybe 46 degrees?
I explained this issue to don at fbo systems and he said he couldnt help me unless i wanted to buy new quickfuel carburetor.
I dont really wanna do that right at this moment because i can not afford it.
I am going to swap coils and see if that helps? The ignition i had on this engine was the mopar performance distributer as well, i just decided to get a new one that was phased and curved, i have a second distributer but it needs to be phased and curved and re-springed. So i am going to send my old distributer to don to have him phase and curve it and put the right spring in it.
I guess for no i will just run it off of ported vaccum if the coil swap doesnt help the popping out the exhaust. i wann aget new plug wires in the future i can see if new plug wires and a new coil will help it run on manifold vaccum. But for now i guess i will set the vaccum can to add 14 degrees of timing at 17 to 18 inches of vaccum. having my intital at 16 degrees and my total at 34 should make the total timing in a lean cruise state land around 47 or 48 degrees wich should be just fine. Correct? i dont see my engine creating anymore then 20 degrees of vaccum cruising down the highway.
 
Ok update. I set the initial timing at 16 degrees wich lands the total at 34 degrees 18 degrees in the distributer. I set my vaccum advance can to give out 15 degrees of timing at 18 inches of vaccum. wich cruising own the highway in overdrive would be a total of about 48 to 50 degrees of timing.
I took it out for a drive and it was running good, but i didnt notice some smoke coming out of the exhaust when i backed off the throttle from getting on it pretty good? this never happened when i was hooked to manifold vaccum.... And another thing, i got home let it idle in the driveway with the vaccum advance hooked up to ported vaccum and it is still faintly popping out the exhaust... so what in the hell could be causing this? I am no longer running the vaccum advance off of full manifold vaccum and it is still thudding and popping out the exhaust sitting at 16 degrees initial wich is this motors sweet spot. This is frustrating me to no end.
 
Dont want to high jack this thread but are all the plug leads correct in their firing order, i made a simple mistake with 1 and 3 in the wrong order and mine was popping from one bank at idle!
 
yes they are in the correct order. I tried a spare coil and t made the popping go away at an idle while on ported vaccum, but as soon as i put it on manifold vaccum the popping was back. The coil i was running checks out on primary resistance at 1.8 but secondary resistance was at 11.50k and its spos to be at 9.50k. I noticed the secondary resistance goes down as the coil cools off, i tested it about 15 minutes later and its at 10.45k.
My repair manual says the coil needs to be at 9.50k, i'm wondering if maybe thats why it was doing it, but i doubht it could b something that simple.
 
So the coil cooled down and the primary resistance is measuring out at 1.8 nd the secondary resistance is at 10.08k wich is pretty close to 9.50k but while th coil was hot it was reading 11.50k could this have been causing the popping?
 
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