May have screwed up installing new cam. Need help!

[JohnnyD]

Degreeing a camshaft is ALL 100% grammar school geometry. Every single bit of it. I say that not trying to call you stupid......just the opposite. You're asking questions and you've realized you need to put the brakes on a little. That's good. I promise you an whiz bang 7th grader could make us all look like idiots and probably do it in five minutes. Adult minds kinda go downhill kinda quick after they get outta that "soak it up like a sponge" stage. lol

Oh yeah I know thats right! It seems to me that this would be a lot easier to understand if I was just 10 years younger.

 

[66fs]

I agree. That's why I say go all the way back to square one.

I knew you were right, he did not seem to be following "How to find TDC". I just said it in a different way.

 

[RustyRatRod]

I knew you were right, he did not seem to be following "How to find TDC". I just said it in a different way.

Sounds like he is going to be on his way now.

 

[66fs]

You're right, I don't completely understand. That will come with letting all the information sit in my head a few days and then actually going through the process. But, I believe I have enough of an understanding to move forward. Here's what I understand and my plan to move forward.

1. I need to find TDC on #1 and verify my damper is correct. After reading the posts here and watching videos on it, I understand how to do that now.

2. I need to undo what I did and start from scratch. This includes degreeing the cam. I've now seen a lot of videos showing how far off the marks can actually be and that does make me suspicious enough to test it.

So, the plan moving forward is to find and verify TDC, then take things apart and see if I was even close. New piston stop and paint marker are on the way, should be here this week. I already have a degree wheel, just need to find it and a spare coat hanger. Now here's where I'm iffy on understanding.

1. Can I degree the cam with the heads on? I'm unsure of this and really don't want to take the heads off.

2. If I install the cam dot to dot (if the marks are right) do I need to stab the distributor in facing #1 or roll it to where both dots are facing 12 o'clock then stab it in facing #1?

3. If the latter in #2 is true, and the dots are off, can I make a new dot on the cam gears, then rotate it to the 12 o'clock position?

This is all very helpful! I do feel like I'm actually wrapping my brain around this. Thanks again for all the input!

Do not change the dots on the cam gear. Forget the distributor, that is the last thing to install. You have to get the cam right or nothing will work.

 

[Killer6]

Oh yeah I know thats right! It seems to me that this would be a lot easier to understand if I was just 10 years younger.

I can think of a dozen things that'd be easier if I were 10yrs. younger, better yet 20yrs.,......lololol!!!

 

[Road Grabber]

When installing the crank gear and cam gear there is a keyway or dowel pin that only allows you to position the cam and crank in one location and not 180 out.

With the cam gear installed rotate the timing dot down towards the crank so that it aligns with the crank sprocket dot pointing up towards the cam gear mark. Unless you have an aftermarket crank gear with additional marks you don’t have to worry about choosing the wrong mark.

Rotate the crank by itself until the mark of the crank gear (not the crank keyway) and cam gear align through the centerline of both camshaft and crankshaft. Put your oil splash guard back on.

Test the crankshaft position by placing the timing cover on temporarily. The top dead center mark on the crank damper should align with the TDC mark on the cover. If it doesn’t you may have a bad damper that the rubber has allowed the timing mark to rotate out of position and cause a vibration problem.

You can’t be 180 out. That’s why there’s timing marks to position the two and you don’t install a cam gear pointing straight up at 12:00. You can however be 180 or whatever out on the distributor cap if you don’t install the distributor oil pump driver gear correctly .

With the two gears now aligned at top dead center position the oil drive gear. The distributor gear for a stock engine should be installed so that the slot on top of the gear for the distributor is pointing towards the passenger side front intake bolt. That way you can adjust your timing without a problem with the vacuum advance hitting the firewall. If it doesn’t point that way take a screwdriver and spin the gear up and away from the cam gear and relocate the driver gear slot until when settles down is in the correct position.

Now check that your rotor is pointing towards the #1 plug wire on the cap with the distributor installed. If not move the wires and make sure the firing order is correct.

Don’t rotate the engine with the timing gears out of position in case pistons may hit valves.

Even if you have to take it apart it’s just your time you are losing and it will be a learning experience to do the job right!!

 

[Alfajim]

I am going to jump in here and add to the complexities. First off for some obscure reason the engine gods to be back in the dark ages decided that cam timing should be done at TDC firing #6 and #1 on overlap never did understand that even when I started building engines 60+ yrs ago.

OK all the instructions to find #1 TDC are good to verify it and yes cam timing gear marks should be at 6 and 12.

Hear is the part you won't like. As this was done 2 yrs ago and sitting you will have to take it all apart and pull the camshaft and relube the lobes with cam break in lube fresh same with lifters especially now that you have been turning it over a number of times, I have lost a few flat tappet cams right after start up for this reason it is critical. Also after it is back together add one extra quart of fresh oil when adding oil and prefill the carb so it fires up immediately bring RPM up to 1500 or so for at least 10 minutes. The reason for this is load on the cam lobes is reduced that way, every new flat tappet cam will go bad right after starting because it has to break in, matching the lifters and lobes together, that is also why you never install a new cam with used lifters.

Good luck with your project find and verify the TDC location and do as I recommend so the cam will live, and one more thing not mentioned above after sitting with spring pressure on them all the lifters will be collapsed after this amount of time.

 

[JohnnyD]

Thanks for all the advice everyone! My plan was to get out this morning, find TDC, and check my work before my BBQ. However, I got the piston stop out of the box and realized it wouldn't fit. I ordered the bigger one thinking it was the size I needed because thats the size of the socket I was using to get the spark plugs out. I've got the smaller one on order and it should be here by Wednesday or Thursday.

@Alfajim thanks for bringing that up. I was thinking maybe I should re lube the cam and re-soak the lifters. It's not that much more work to do it since I'm taking the timing cover off anyway.

One other thing to note. I had to turn over the engine in my Valiant by hand for another thread, and I realized I never heard any pumping sounds or air escaping when I turned over the 273 we're talking about. This is strange, as it was a running engine with good compression (cylinder pressures in the 150s) before I took it apart. I know we thought we solved this already, but now I'm concerned. All it's done is sat and I've never had the heads off. Any theories as to what would cause this?

Ill update once the new piston stop is in!

 

[JohnnyD]

Update: The new piston stop came in. Also, working on the engine again helped me remember a few things so I must correct myself on something I said earlier.

Correction: When I was explaining how I found TDC on the initial install, I mistakenly said I watched the intake close and the exhaust open, then rolled it back a hair. I had forgotten that small block heads go Exhaust, Intake, Intake, Exhaust. For clarity, I watched the closest rocker to me on #1 close and watched the rocker behind it open a bit, then rolled it back a hair. Sorry for the confusion!

TDC: I found TDC on the 273 and verified it on the damper. It was not right on the factory mark, but it was pretty close. Ill let yall tell me how close it was based on this picture:

Im still going to tear into it, re-lube the cam and lifters, and degree the cam to verify. This time, though, Im going to go a lot slower and record myself doing it for my YouTube channel. This way, I will have a record of what I did. Im still not hearing any compression escaping when I turn the engine and am still unsure of what could cause that from it just sitting. Will update once I get the engine apart. Thanks everyone!

 

[4spdragtop]

I would double chk how you got TDC with mark being that far off. If its slipped once, it will do it again.

 

[1MeanA]

... Im still not hearing any compression escaping when I turn the engine and am still unsure of what could cause that from it just sitting. Will update once I get the engine apart. Thanks everyone!

Cam timing or valve adjustments way out possibly

 

[JohnnyD]

Cam timing or valve adjustments way out possibly

That brings up another question I have. This is a hydraulic cam thats going in place of the solid cam. I've heard im supposed to adjust the rockers to 0 lash. Am I supposed to turn the engine to adjust the rockers? As in, start from #1, adjust that rocker, then rotate the crank a certain number of degrees, adjust #8, and so forth? Or am I supposed to adjust all of them at once without turning the engine. I know I'm supposed to limit the amount of times the engine turns to keep the cam lube on. I'd hate to turn it too many times.

 

[Dartswinger70]

Timing chain sounds like it was done r ight distributor may not be in right no?

The car should fire up regardless of timing marks on damper then you can time with a vacuum gauge damper rings slip all the time on these old dampers that old 273 probably ha d timing marks on pass side if you have th ewrong timing cover its way off etc.

 

[1MeanA]

That brings up another question I have. This is a hydraulic cam thats going in place of the solid cam. I've heard im supposed to adjust the rockers to 0 lash. Am I supposed to turn the engine to adjust the rockers? As in, start from #1, adjust that rocker, then rotate the crank a certain number of degrees, adjust #8, and so forth? Or am I supposed to adjust all of them at once without turning the engine. I know I'm supposed to limit the amount of times the engine turns to keep the cam lube on. I'd hate to turn it too many times.

Not zero lash...you are just preloading the hydraulic lifter. Yes its done when the cam is on the base circle so you are turning the engine just like when you are doing valve lash.

 

[Dartswinger70]

Update: The new piston stop came in. Also, working on the engine again helped me remember a few things so I must correct myself on something I said earlier.

Correction: When I was explaining how I found TDC on the initial install, I mistakenly said I watched the intake close and the exhaust open, then rolled it back a hair. I had forgotten that small block heads go Exhaust, Intake, Intake, Exhaust. For clarity, I watched the closest rocker to me on #1 close and watched the rocker behind it open a bit, then rolled it back a hair. Sorry for the confusion!

TDC: I found TDC on the 273 and verified it on the damper. It was not right on the factory mark, but it was pretty close. Ill let yall tell me how close it was based on this picture:
View attachment 1716402637

Im still going to tear into it, re-lube the cam and lifters, and degree the cam to verify. This time, though, Im going to go a lot slower and record myself doing it for my YouTube channel. This way, I will have a record of what I did. Im still not hearing any compression escaping when I turn the engine and am still unsure of what could cause that from it just sitting. Will update once I get the engine apart. Thanks everyone!

It looks to me like you have the wrong damper like that damper for the later timing cover thats the driver side of the engine and your marks are on the passenger side no? Does it start and run but you cant time it with a light?

 

[JohnnyD]

Not zero lash...you are just preloading the hydraulic lifter. Yes its done when the cam is on the base circle so you are turning the engine just like when you are doing valve lash.

OK, so basically I need to do this in one complete rotation of the engine to save as much lube from getting wiped off the cam as possible?

 

[JohnnyD]

It looks to me like you have the wrong damper like that damper for the later timing cover thats the driver side of the engine and your marks are on the passenger side no? Does it start and run but you cant time it with a light?

No that's the damper that came with it. The timing marks are on the passenger side. It's on the driver's side because thats the only place I could get my tape measure in.

 

[Mtrhead]

If you don't know what you're doing just grab a service manual and I guarantee you within 30 minutes you will know what you're doing it's too easy everybody on this site had to learn from it to begin with

 

[Mtrhead]

A Mopar man's second Bible

 

[Dartswinger70]

No that's the damper that came with it. The timing marks are on the passenger side. It's on the driver's side because thats the only place I could get my tape measure in.

It could be wrong though for a later LA I think 67 is when they went to drivers side with the timing marks or the timing cover is wrong etc. check dates on engine OR part number of damper and timing cover etc. Its just what it looks like to me at a glance a mismatch of parts I am thinking its unlikely the outer ring slipped that much on the damper but anything is possible. Anyway thing is if timing chain iis right and distributor is in right it should run and ignore the timing marks and time it with a vacuum guage OR you could find TDC and put a paint mark on the timing cover which is another option

 

[Dartswinger70]

If you don't know what you're doing just grab a service manual and I guarantee you within 30 minutes you will know what you're doing it's too easy everybody on this site had to learn from it to begin with

Yup rebuilt my firs LA with a "How to rebuild your Small Block Mopar" book and a Chilton manual "US cars 1964-71" is a good one too...

 

[Dartswinger70]

here is a link to more about the timing covers. what i see is you dont have a scale there on the drivers side of the engine. It may be a bolt on timing scale thats missing from a water pump change etc. i cant imagine it rusted off

Timing mark locations on small block covers?

 

[Dartswinger70]

Why is something so easy to verify being made so hard? It's about a 10 minute job.
Good luck.

People overthink things these days do you know how many threads get to "tearing it down" without even following basic troubleshooting steps? What ever happened to the idea of "I don't want to spend $$$ unnecessarily only to find out that wasn't it?"

 

[JohnnyD]

Ill explain what I did to find TDC this time around for clarity.

I used a piston stop; the kind you screw into the spark plug hole. I had to screw it in almost to the bottom to get the piston to actually hit it. But I saw videos that stated it didn't matter how much you screw it in, just don't move it after you start.

I put a piece of tape on the damper, leaving a bit of the damper exposed for when I made my final mark.

I turned the engine clockwise till I hit the stop, then made a mark on the damper at the 0 mark on the timing mark.

I then turned the engine counter clockwise till I hit the stop. I made a mark on the damper at the same 0 mark I used as the reference point.

Finally, I turned the engine till the two marks I made were exposed on the driver's side, as this was the place where I could get my tape measure in and see what the measurement was. Thats why its on the drivers side in the picture. The measurement came out to 4 inches. Half of 4 is 2. So I made a mark at 2 inches on the tape and extended it to the damper. The mark ended up being close to the factory mark, but there seems to have been a bit of slippage over time.

Hope this helps clarify things!

 

[JohnnyD]

here is a link to more about the timing covers. what i see is you dont have a scale there on the drivers side of the engine. It may be a bolt on timing scale thats missing from a water pump change etc. i cant imagine it rusted off

Timing mark locations on small block covers?

The timing marks are on the passenger side. I just turned it to the driver's side after making marks to get my tape measure in there.