May have screwed up installing new cam. Need help!

[JohnnyD]

I gotta learn somehow. And that comes with making mistakes. If we all just stayed inside our box, we wouldn't get anywhere. I like to expand my mind, so I'm gonna keep doing that.

Turns out I may have found TDC just fine originally. What I did was watch the intake rocker till it closed and the exhaust started to open, then I rolled it back a bit. The confusion came when I went to check it later and found the timing mark on the damper not lined up with the mark on the timing cover. I couldn't remember moving it, but may have. This was 2 years ago. But i do remember initially watching the rockers for TDC.

My other concern was did I install the cam 180 out. I did put it dot to dot when I installed it. Every post I read on this thread says that's right, so I'm less concerned now. I still may check it, but I still wanna reverify that I'm on TDC.

 

[1MeanA]

If you don’t find TDC properly you might learn another lesson.

 

[JohnnyD]

That's very true. Sorry for coming off snippy earlier. I realized what the poster was trying to tell me was I should have taken a step back and listened more instead of going and turning the engine when I didn't know if I had it right in the first place. Im hear to learn from everybody and I should remember that when asking for help. I'm just frustrated and read the post wrong. My apologies.

Would getting a piston stop at this point and marking the timing marks manually be able to tell me if I got this right or wrong? Seems like the next logical step to me before I do anything else.

 

[crackedback]

What are you trying to accomplish? Where to install the distributor?

Watch the intake rocker ONLY. When it closes, next time the mark comes to tdc on timing cover is #1 firing. Can''t make the process more simple than that.
4 stroke - intake, compression, power, exhaust

You don't need a piston stop for this. You need to know where the engine is in the 4 stroke cycle. Stop isn't going to tell you that. Good luck.4

Was the timing set a multi keyway or single? If multi, there are ways to mess that operation up. Seen it plenty in the shop.

 

[RustyRatRod]

It's dot to dot. Where he took it apart, if he spun it over is irrelevant to crank/cam orientation. Either the dots line up or they don't. If dots lined up, it's in where it "should" be... no guarantees with parts these days! LOL Always good practice to verify.

Putting the distributor, different deal...

Who's to say the dots were in the right spot, or they were the right dots? This is just another reason to make degreeing EVERY camshaft mandatory.

 

[RustyRatRod]

That's very true. Sorry for coming off snippy earlier. I realized what the poster was trying to tell me was I should have taken a step back and listened more instead of going and turning the engine when I didn't know if I had it right in the first place. Im hear to learn from everybody and I should remember that when asking for help. I'm just frustrated and read the post wrong. My apologies.

Would getting a piston stop at this point and marking the timing marks manually be able to tell me if I got this right or wrong? Seems like the next logical step to me before I do anything else.

It can turn into a very expensive mistake. That's why it's important. Here's what I recommend. I would start SLAM back over from the get go. Yes, I would use a piston stop and VERIFY TDC. Without that, you don't "know" a thing about the rest of it. Verify that the piston is all the way UP in the bore and that BOTH the intake and exhaust valves for #1 cylinder are closed. FROM THERE, I would get the degree wheel out and see "where" it is for camshaft timing.

 

[JohnnyD]

What are you trying to accomplish? Where to install the distributor?

Watch the intake rocker ONLY. When it closes, next time the mark comes to tdc on timing cover is #1 firing. Can''t make the process more simple than that.
4 stroke - intake, compression, power, exhaust

You don't need a piston stop for this. You need to know where the engine is in the 4 stroke cycle. Stop isn't going to tell you that. Good luck.

Most of this is from bad memory since I installed this 2 years ago. What I am trying to do is verify Installed the cam right and that its not in upside down or just off. Here are my concerns for clarity.

1. When I originally installed the cam, I remember verifying TDC by looking at the rockers and watching the intake close and the exhaust start to open, then rolling the engine back a bit. What I don't remember is verifying that the timing mark was in the correct position. I may have, but I can't remember for certain. I also don't remember turning the crankshaft after that, but when I checked this morning, the timing mark on the damper was not at the 0 position. I don't remember moving it, but maybe I did for some reason.

2. I've seen different videos talking about cam installs and I swear on a couple specifically tailored to the Mopar small block, they said to install it with both dots pointing at 12 o'clock. I was unclear on why as I always thought that you installed a cam and crank gear dot to dot. I was just verifying that was correct.

3. I was confused on where the rotor on the distributor should be pointing.

Hope this clarifies things!

 

[JohnnyD]

It can turn into a very expensive mistake. That's why it's important. Here's what I recommend. I would start SLAM back over from the get go. Yes, I would use a piston stop and VERIFY TDC. Without that, you don't "know" a thing about the rest of it. Verify that the piston is all the way UP in the bore and that BOTH the intake and exhaust valves for #1 cylinder are closed. FROM THERE, I would get the degree wheel out and see "where" it is for camshaft timing.

OK cool! I'll get one on order and go through that process. Will report back with whay I find. Thanks for the help!

 

[4spdragtop]

Simplest way to find true tdc is use a long wooden shiskabob skewer. Put in #1 cyl at the "deepest" spot in cyl. Rotate engine until skewer reaches max height. Mark balancer at 0 mark. Repeat going opposite direction, mark balancer at 0 mark again. Find the middle of those 2 marks and mark it.
That is TDC on #1.
BUT we done know if it's on compression stroke. In order to find that, you can watch the rocker like crackedback said, you could also put thumb over plug hole and feel compression build while rotating engine. You can also put a piece of kleenex in plug hole and when it "pops" out that compression stroke.

 

[crackedback]

Simple to see if you are in the ballpark- throw everything you did out the windows clean slate.

When the engine is at TDC on overlap (exhaust closing/intake opening), the lifters should be about level with each other., If one is higher than the other, you may have an issue.

If the intake is on the engine, can be a PIA to get a good look.

 

[RustyRatRod]

OK cool! I'll get one on order and go through that process. Will report back with whay I find. Thanks for the help!

Sho nuff.

 

[PRH]

Have we figured out the no cranking compression thing yet?

 

[JohnnyD]

Have we figured out the no cranking compression thing yet?

That would have been because i was turning the engine by hand, not with the starter. Should have been clearer with that. A poster above set me straight.

 

[fishmens67]

Why is something so easy to verify being made so hard? It's about a 10 minute job.
Good luck.

 

[92b]

Just to add to the confusion. If, as Rusty pointed out, your dots are in the right place ( and they probably are but you should still check it) your camshaft doesn't care if you time the top gear with the dot at 6 or 12 o'clock. As long as your #1 piston is at tdc. Top gear at 6 or 12 only matters for distributor placement.

 

[middleagecrisis]

Just to add to the confusion. If, as Rusty pointed out, your dots are in the right place ( and they probably are but you should still check it) your camshaft doesn't care if you time the top gear with the dot at 6 or 12 o'clock. As long as your #1 piston is at tdc. Top gear at 6 or 12 only matters for distributor placement.

This is what I was thinking. At worst, your distributor is 180° out. I don’t think you have a problem with your timing gear installation, maybe just your distributor installed incorrectly.

 

[66fs]

I have zero confidence you have true TDC. How did you find TDC initially? Until you find true TDC everything can be way off. I have seen factory marks off 10 degrees. You need to use a piston stop if your motor is together. Turn the crank slowly clockwise by hand till it just contacts the piston stop, then mark the damper at the zero mark. Next turn the crank slowly counter clock wise by hand till it just contacts the piston stop, then mark the damper at the zero mark. True TDC is halfway between those two marks. What state is the motor in right now? In the car? I read you have the exhaust manifolds on. Do you have the cam card? Next you need a degree wheel, Trick flow or Summit has Mopar damper bolt pattern. Make a pointer from a coat hanger. Have it point to zero at TDC. Now turn clockwise till you see movement of the #1 intake lifter. Check the opening on the cam card, it should be close. If not it is time to pull the timing cover.

 

[Killer6]

OK cool! I'll get one on order and go through that process. Will report back with whay I find. Thanks for the help!

You basically did the right thing wrong, TDC#1 COMPRESSION happens just after the intake closes, the very next time the piston's up. But dot-to-dot was wrong, so the dizzy would've been 180° out, the marks being way off damper-to-cover however requires an explanation. A positive stop method will provide a precise answer, but by the sounds of it, You could eyeball it thru' the plug hole to verify it's that far off.
*EDIT* In post#32, You stated "the intake closed & exhaust started to open" ...that never happens, the exhaust closes and intake opens during overlap...which is TDC EXHAUST STROKE....NOT Power stroke...which is where You are setting the dizzy to #1.

 

[RustyRatRod]

I have zero confidence you have true TDC. How did you find TDC initially? Until you find true TDC everything can be way off. I have seen factory marks off 10 degrees. You need to use a piston stop if your motor is together. Turn the crank slowly clockwise by hand till it just contacts the piston stop, then mark the damper at the zero mark. Next turn the crank slowly counter clock wise by hand till it just contacts the piston stop, then mark the damper at the zero mark. True TDC is halfway between those two marks. What state is the motor in right now? In the car? I read you have the exhaust manifolds on. Do you have the cam card? Next you need a degree wheel, Trick flow or Summit has Mopar damper bolt pattern. Make a pointer from a coat hanger. Have it point to zero at TDC. Now turn clockwise till you see movement of the #1 intake lifter. Check the opening on the cam card, it should be close. If not it is time to pull the timing cover.

I agree. That's why I say go all the way back to square one.

 

[fishmens67]

I agree. That's why I say go all the way back to square one.

What? You don't think there is a way of verifying without pulling it apart. lol lol

 

[RustyRatRod]

What? You don't think there is a way of verifying without pulling it apart. lol lol

Now I didn't say THAT! lol

 

[fishmens67]

Now I didn't say THAT! lol

What? You don't think there is a way of verifying without pulling it apart. lol lol

I know you didn't, without explaining , it may be better for the OP to start from scratch, camshaft installation 101.
There's been good information given but it seems he doesn't understand.

 

[JohnnyD]

I know you didn't, without explaining , it may be better for the OP to start from scratch, camshaft installation 101.
There's been good information given but it seems he doesn't understand.

You're right, I don't completely understand. That will come with letting all the information sit in my head a few days and then actually going through the process. But, I believe I have enough of an understanding to move forward. Here's what I understand and my plan to move forward.

1. I need to find TDC on #1 and verify my damper is correct. After reading the posts here and watching videos on it, I understand how to do that now.

2. I need to undo what I did and start from scratch. This includes degreeing the cam. I've now seen a lot of videos showing how far off the marks can actually be and that does make me suspicious enough to test it.

So, the plan moving forward is to find and verify TDC, then take things apart and see if I was even close. New piston stop and paint marker are on the way, should be here this week. I already have a degree wheel, just need to find it and a spare coat hanger. Now here's where I'm iffy on understanding.

1. Can I degree the cam with the heads on? I'm unsure of this and really don't want to take the heads off.

2. If I install the cam dot to dot (if the marks are right) do I need to stab the distributor in facing #1 or roll it to where both dots are facing 12 o'clock then stab it in facing #1?

3. If the latter in #2 is true, and the dots are off, can I make a new dot on the cam gears, then rotate it to the 12 o'clock position?

This is all very helpful! I do feel like I'm actually wrapping my brain around this. Thanks again for all the input!

 

[Newbomb Turk]

You're right, I don't completely understand. That will come with letting all the information sit in my head a few days and then actually going through the process. But, I believe I have enough of an understanding to move forward. Here's what I understand and my plan to move forward.

1. I need to find TDC on #1 and verify my damper is correct. After reading the posts here and watching videos on it, I understand how to do that now.

2. I need to undo what I did and start from scratch. This includes degreeing the cam. I've now seen a lot of videos showing how far off the marks can actually be and that does make me suspicious enough to test it.

So, the plan moving forward is to find and verify TDC, then take things apart and see if I was even close. New piston stop and paint marker are on the way, should be here this week. I already have a degree wheel, just need to find it and a spare coat hanger. Now here's where I'm iffy on understanding.

1. Can I degree the cam with the heads on? I'm unsure of this and really don't want to take the heads off.

2. If I install the cam dot to dot (if the marks are right) do I need to stab the distributor in facing #1 or roll it to where both dots are facing 12 o'clock then stab it in facing #1?

3. If the latter in #2 is true, and the dots are off, can I make a new dot on the cam gears, then rotate it to the 12 o'clock position?

This is all very helpful! I do feel like I'm actually wrapping my brain around this. Thanks again for all the input!

1. Yes
2. Not always. @318willrun did a video about this on his YouTube channel. Find it and watch it.
3. NO. You either need a timing set with multiple key ways or or an offset key.

 

[RustyRatRod]

You're right, I don't completely understand. That will come with letting all the information sit in my head a few days and then actually going through the process. But, I believe I have enough of an understanding to move forward. Here's what I understand and my plan to move forward.

1. I need to find TDC on #1 and verify my damper is correct. After reading the posts here and watching videos on it, I understand how to do that now.

2. I need to undo what I did and start from scratch. This includes degreeing the cam. I've now seen a lot of videos showing how far off the marks can actually be and that does make me suspicious enough to test it.

So, the plan moving forward is to find and verify TDC, then take things apart and see if I was even close. New piston stop and paint marker are on the way, should be here this week. I already have a degree wheel, just need to find it and a spare coat hanger. Now here's where I'm iffy on understanding.

1. Can I degree the cam with the heads on? I'm unsure of this and really don't want to take the heads off.

2. If I install the cam dot to dot (if the marks are right) do I need to stab the distributor in facing #1 or roll it to where both dots are facing 12 o'clock then stab it in facing #1?

3. If the latter in #2 is true, and the dots are off, can I make a new dot on the cam gears, then rotate it to the 12 o'clock position?

This is all very helpful! I do feel like I'm actually wrapping my brain around this. Thanks again for all the input!

Degreeing a camshaft is ALL 100% grammar school geometry. Every single bit of it. I say that not trying to call you stupid......just the opposite. You're asking questions and you've realized you need to put the brakes on a little. That's good. I promise you an whiz bang 7th grader could make us all look like idiots and probably do it in five minutes. Adult minds kinda go downhill kinda quick after they get outta that "soak it up like a sponge" stage. lol