Missing 3rd on 904 trans

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Another update. After cleaning everything out and putting it back together I'm back exactly where I started. I have reverse, neutral, first and second but no third. I remembered I still had the 904 trans that came on the slant six. I pulled the valve body out of that, gave it a quick one over and cleaning and put that in with the same results. The only things left I can think of that I'll tinker with next weekend it the linkage is that far out of wack or the band torque is off. I'm getting close to just accepting I'll only ever have 2 forward gears in this car....
 
Another update. After cleaning everything out and putting it back together I'm back exactly where I started. I have reverse, neutral, first and second but no third. I remembered I still had the 904 trans that came on the slant six. I pulled the valve body out of that, gave it a quick one over and cleaning and put that in with the same results. The only things left I can think of that I'll tinker with next weekend it the linkage is that far out of wack or the band torque is off. I'm getting close to just accepting I'll only ever have 2 forward gears in this car....
TorqueGlide!
 
Another update. After cleaning everything out and putting it back together I'm back exactly where I started. I have reverse, neutral, first and second but no third. I remembered I still had the 904 trans that came on the slant six. I pulled the valve body out of that, gave it a quick one over and cleaning and put that in with the same results. The only things left I can think of that I'll tinker with next weekend it the linkage is that far out of wack or the band torque is off. I'm getting close to just accepting I'll only ever have 2 forward gears in this car....
What type of kickdown setup are you using?
 
I actually removed the kickdown cable and zip tied it to the side just to take it out of the equation for now.
 
If there was a " ton of crap" in the valvebody, it may have got a chunk in the governor.
Auto is not my strong suit, perhaps another knowledgeable member can add some insight .

Also, if you have the throttle pressure/(kick-down) lever zapped all the way back/rear, it may not shift till hiway speeds .

EDIT .
 
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Saw mention in the Motors Automatic Transmission Manual that there could be some association with the oil pump. Bad seal causing some leakage.... It does sound the world like the 2 -3 Valve is not actuating but you said the valve body was all clear. Strange.

I could not get upshift 1 -2 nor 2 -3 and it was debris in the shift valve area causing it to stick
 
If you tied the throttle valve back it will take a lotta lotta rpm to command a 2-3 shift. Depending on how far it is tied back, it could take 5000, and with 3.23s that could be over 85 mph.
However, if the governor is working, then the 1-2 shift would take about the same rpm, but now at 50mph.
If the governor was not working, then you would not get an automatic 1-2 shift either.
Since reverse is working, then BOTH the L/R band AND the Hi-Drum are working. In reverse the oil pressure is unregulated and if you cannot make reverse slip, then there is nothing wrong with the hard parts.
There are no bands involved in Third gear.
If, when the trans is scheduled to go into Third by the governor, and it goes into a false neutral instead, then the hi-drum is not getting oil-pressure. Remember, in reverse the pressure to the hi-drum is whatever the pomp is regulated to, or about 260 psi. But in Forward, it is limited to a maximum of ~*90psi depending on where the TV is depressed to. If the governor pressure is not more than line pressure plus TV pressure, then no shift can occur.
If you have locked out the governor on purpose, in any method not detailed with the shiftkit, then it is possible for the governor pressure to leak away, and upset your line pressure. Since the Throttle Pressure is a function of Line Pressure, then it too is compromised.
If the wrong spring was installed in the 2-3 shift valve, that could prevent a 2-3 shift
If the #3 ball is missing from the VB, the circuit will hemoragh oil pressure. Same if the accumulator busted.
If a too strong spring is installed into the TV circuit, the pressure will be too high for the governor to overcome and the shift will not occur.
There are seven small balls in the VB ; The main relief is .375 . Of the remaining six, Five are (5/16), while one is a hair bigger, 11/32 (IIRC) bigger than the rest, and it goes in the bigger cavity, close to the relief valve..
if the VB is off, now is the time to do an Air-pressure test, to prove the hard parts are working..
 
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The kickdown cable is completely unhooked from the trans. The only lever hooked to the valve body is the main shift lever. When I did the rebuild I rebuilt the governor as per the instructions(by instructions i mean the YouTube video i was watching).

As far as the check balls go, the second valve body came out of a running transmission. The motor threw a rod while driving on the freeway so it was operating as advertised. For what it's worth the car has 3.55 gears out back.
 
if the KD lever is unhooked from the carb, then the TV, on the VB, should be up against It's internal stop and therefore set to it's minimum pressure. If the governor still has the correct flyweight for 3.55 gears, and is working correctly, then it should build pressure very fast and easily overcome line-pressure to make a very-quick 1-2 shift. Sometimes the shifts follow eachother so fast, that you can almost completely miss the 1-2 shift.
If this is your case;
There are two ways to prove that third-gear is or is-not working;
1) by the tach, and
2) by the rpm increase on the 3-2 manual downshift.
>60 mph with 3.55s, with 27"tires, in Third gear while cruising, mathes to 2650 @zero-slip, could be ~150 either way, on the tach.
> on the 3-2 manual downshift the rpm should jump to 3850 while still cruising, give or take the same 150 or so.

BTW:
With the KD rod/cable removed, the transmission cannot handle any abuse. The clutches and bands will be fine for cruising and light acceleration. But if you start pumping torque thru her, she will slip and soon after, burn up.
If you need to operate in this mode, then you aught to tie the KD lever which is down at the trans, to some position at least half way from when the lever starts resisting your effort, to, all the way back. You still cannot put full power thru it, and the shifts may be late or harsh. The KD is exists, to soften the hits at low-power; that is it's primary function. The further back that you tie it, the higher rpm the trans will auto-shift at, and the harsher the shifts will be.

As for the governor;
The flyweights and springs, come in several calibrations, to match the driveshaft rpm to a desirable auto-shift range, so you can set it where you like it. The driveshaft rpm varies with roadspeed, which at a given engine-rpm, will vary with the installed rear-gear ratio. You gotta tune that puppy to your driving style.
If the 3.55s in there today, are not the gears that the car left the factory with, but the governor is; then, they may not be well-matched. The TV can be fudged either way about one gear ratio, but eventually, it runs out of adjustment range. As far as I have experienced, there are only maybe four flyweights and several calibration springs to service all ratios from 2.94 to about 4.30s. By percent that is about 10% each..... which just happens to work out, very similar to the march of gear ratios, except the 3.73s which are a half-step.
The heavier your flyweight is, the sooner it will shift. You can machine weight off a heavy governor to get the trans shifting in the ballpark, then fine tune it with the springs.
A&A has a governor kit.
 
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I need to hook my old tach up. I bought a Amazon special tach because it had a shift light and it's already took a crap after about 100 miles. I was actually wondering if it was in third on the way to work tonight. I was cruising at about 60-65 and the motor wasn't wound out at all. The thing is if I try to manually shift from 1-2 nothing happens then from 2-D I get a shift. I'll definitely hook the kickdown cable back up tomorrow though.
 
AHA, so it's First gear that you are missing.
Well then I can tell you right away, that since you have reverse, the band is working fine. And, if you can take off in "drive", then the One-Way clutch is working.
So that narrows it down to an oil-pressure issue
Have you tried a 2-1 forced downshift?
If the trans will Not downshift into manual Low from Second, then I would suspect a stuck 1-2 shift valve.
But if it does, then I'm going with the governor circuit.

Now, I gotta admit, that I have played with these torqueflites not so much,and am not all that proficient in diagnosing problems. I can build them no problem, and I can kit them, and I can mod governors. All of that cool stuff. And I know my way around the flow-charts.
But hi-strangeness is still a bit of a guess for me.
There are a couple of guys here on FABO way more proficient than me. One of them I think, is @CudaFactHackJob , so this will page him.
 
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Finally got some time to wrench on the car. I hooked the kickdown cable back up and did some testing. First gear is no where to be found. If I leave it in drive the car takes off in second but won't shift out of it. If I start out with the shifter in first at a stop nothing happens when I click it to second when I get going but it will shift to 3rd when I manually shift it to D.
 
Is your shifter;
P-R-N-D-2-1
Is manual low all the way to the back/bottom?
and can you feel each notch as you pass into/thru it?
If yur not sure,
put the cabin-shifter into Low, then get underneath the car and remove the shift linkage (the KD can stay) from the shift lever, which should be all the way to the back. Push the shift lever all the way to the back of the car, and tug on the linkage to be sure it is still in Manual-Low, then attempt to drop the link into the shift lever. If it does, then. lift the link out, and push the lever all the way to the front, followed by the shift-rod. You may have to get out from under there, go back into the cab, put the cabin shifter into Park, and then climb back under it.
Verify that the trans is in park by attempting to rotate the driveshaft in it's normal direction which is CW from the front of the car.
Now return to the trans and attempt to drop the linkrod into the hole in the lever.
If it does line up, and the linkrod drops right in; then the parts are matched, and the cabin-shifter is synchronized to the trans..
If it almost lines up, then you may have to tweak the length of the linkrod. You will have to find the adjuster and make it happen. It's not faraway, and you can usually get to it from underneath.
If it does not line up at all, then you have the wrong lever on the 904. Find and install the right lever, Synchronize it ......... Then roadtest it again
 
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It has been converted to a b&m "z shift" floor shifter which is a version of a ratchet shifter. This evening I'm going to put it up in on Jack stands and I'll be able to check the linkages.
 
Just checked the linkages. When the shifter is in park, the pawl is definitely engaged. When I put it in 1st, the lever is in the end position.
 
Let me recap;
the trans passed the air-test.
the VB was cleaned.
the shifter is synchronized.
Reverse works.
Neutral works.
Second works
and Drive seems to work.

AFAIK, it is impossible for a 904 to start in Second........ unless
1) the 1-2 shift valve is stuck in the bottom of it's bore.... or
2) the 1-2 shift spring is missing, calibrated wrong, or installed wrong. It goes in FIRST, not between........., or
3) throttle pressure is lower than governor pressure, or
4) if line pressure has been re-routed to the governor circuit.
 
I think this week I'll go over the other valve body(the one that was originally from this trans that I put the shift kit in) with a fine tooth comb. Next weekend I'll drop the pan again and swap them out and look for any other possible causes while the pan is off.
 
Finally found something wrong. Went through the valve body and couldn't find anything yet again. Decided to air test the bands again and BINGO. At some point the torque on the adjustment got way so tight that it wouldn't let it release. I loosened it up to the proper setting and it passed the air test with flying colors again. Now I just have to hope it didn't smoke the band. I'm on hold until morning when I can go pick up a new pan gasket. Hopefully this solved everything.
 
So I realized I haven't updated my struggles for a while and figured I'd catch those interested up. From a stop maybe one out of ten starts, I'll actually get first gear (even with the shifter in first). Normally I'm starting in second. When I shift from second to third it takes 2-3 business days to grab third. Occasionally, it won't grab third and i have to shift it to neutral and click it back to D and it'll grab third. I'm going to pull the pan and valve body this weekend and try and go over everything once again and try and find something I missed.
 
If you pull the VB looking for sticky shift valves, do an air test.

As for my understanding;
I fail to see how a stock 904 can start in any gear except first.... unless
1) the 1-2 shift valve is stuck, which could easily cause the slow 2-3 shift. or
2) the governor is stuck. But if this is the case, then the trans should always shift at the same roadspeed only slightly affected by the KD adjustment/throttle-position.
3) even if the L/R band fails to engage, the sprag will still put you in first, no matter which forward gear has been selected.
4) but if reverse works normally, then BOTH the L/R band and the sprag, and the Hi-drum, are all working normally

It's gonna be interesting, that's for sure.
 
So I realized I haven't updated my struggles for a while and figured I'd catch those interested up. From a stop maybe one out of ten starts, I'll actually get first gear (even with the shifter in first). Normally I'm starting in second. When I shift from second to third it takes 2-3 business days to grab third. Occasionally, it won't grab third and i have to shift it to neutral and click it back to D and it'll grab third. I'm going to pull the pan and valve body this weekend and try and go over everything once again and try and find something I missed.
If you pull the VB looking for sticky shift valves, do an air test.

Yes..sounds like the voodoo is in the Valve Body. Intermittent failure is a PITA.

Still watching to see what you figure out. Good luck

:popcorn:I
 
Recorded a quick video on the way to work this evening. The sound isn't great but you can still hear the rpm's.

 
So that's not ideal..... looks like I'm going to get a second chance to rebuild my transmission.

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